If you check out from 1:40 you’ll get the gist of what Dave learned from his dodgy Texas Uni:
https://youtu.be/kO8x8eoU3L4
In 35 years of being principal and head of school, I have never once had a Board Member express a policy preference about gender diversity in elementary or primary school. The only parents who’ve talked to me have done so because they specifically wanted a male teacher – almost invariably as a role model for their son.
Male applicant for Primary job at an advantage, or not?
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@Heliotrope
No there isnt a shortage in those regions, you have identified some people who have an opinion that there are fewer male DTs than they would prefer there to be. There perception of a shortage does not equate to an actual shortage. The AUS report said it best, "no government in Australia had a policy to encourage men to take up teaching", because its not something thats really wanted, or needed, and thus justifying a real crises and a real shortage. This is no different from an article claiming that "the internet is losing its poo over...", the internet is 5 millennials at HuffPo, and this male primary shortage is a manufactured crises, male elementary DTs will be extinct by 2067 or some other period in the future, and so what, there will still be primary DTs (maybe), kids will still have DTs, life will move on. You havent identified a shortage, youve found some individuals who have a preference for something that they would like more of because they perceive it as valuable, and they have chosen language that includes the term "shortage" because it makes it sound more important, more critical than it actually is, which is nothing.
No there isnt a shortage in those regions, you have identified some people who have an opinion that there are fewer male DTs than they would prefer there to be. There perception of a shortage does not equate to an actual shortage. The AUS report said it best, "no government in Australia had a policy to encourage men to take up teaching", because its not something thats really wanted, or needed, and thus justifying a real crises and a real shortage. This is no different from an article claiming that "the internet is losing its poo over...", the internet is 5 millennials at HuffPo, and this male primary shortage is a manufactured crises, male elementary DTs will be extinct by 2067 or some other period in the future, and so what, there will still be primary DTs (maybe), kids will still have DTs, life will move on. You havent identified a shortage, youve found some individuals who have a preference for something that they would like more of because they perceive it as valuable, and they have chosen language that includes the term "shortage" because it makes it sound more important, more critical than it actually is, which is nothing.
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shadowjack
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Re: Male applicant for Primary job at an advantage, or not?
I have relatives who are male primary teachers. They have no problem getting multiple offers from good schools. They are the primary equivalent of the HS Chemistry/Math/Physics teacher :-)
Parents often want male role models, particularly from grades 3 up.
Parents often want male role models, particularly from grades 3 up.
Re: Male applicant for Primary job at an advantage, or not?
As a male elementary teacher, my experience is nearly the same as falloutmike. In Asia and the ME parents were sometimes afraid to have me teaching their 6 year old. One parent even had the admin switch out their daughter out of my class! Ya, I did take it personally.
But those kind of experiences are just the exceptions - overwhelmingly, parents are happy to have someone like me, the kids love it as up to that point (I teach grade 3 now) they haven’t had a male teacher. Admin in my experience have actively searched for males for elementary and primary, and not just upper elementary.
All else being equal, it has been my experience - both in IE and DE (Canada) - that being a male in elementary is an advantage.
V.
But those kind of experiences are just the exceptions - overwhelmingly, parents are happy to have someone like me, the kids love it as up to that point (I teach grade 3 now) they haven’t had a male teacher. Admin in my experience have actively searched for males for elementary and primary, and not just upper elementary.
All else being equal, it has been my experience - both in IE and DE (Canada) - that being a male in elementary is an advantage.
V.
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Heliotrope
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Re: Male applicant for Primary job at an advantage, or not?
@PsyGuy
Bravo, you've found one line that you think supports your argument. And indeed, some governments don't address these very real shortages, because (as 5 minutes of unbiased research will tell you) it would mean they would have to pay teachers a better salary. So some governments accept the shortage as they don't want to spend coin. Schools and parents however do feel the shortage of male teachers in Primary, and therefore as a male applicant for a Primary job you're at an advantage, which is also illustrated by the other replies to this topic.
Actually there are plenty of governments that actually do campaign to boost the reputation of the profession in order to attract more males (as the job doesn't have the standing that men would like a job to have), as that's a relatively cheap (but largely ineffective) and one-off effort, but without more salary and enough opportunities to move up the ladder at a school (other than a Headship), not enough men will consider teaching as a lifelong career to fill the shortage.
Bravo, you've found one line that you think supports your argument. And indeed, some governments don't address these very real shortages, because (as 5 minutes of unbiased research will tell you) it would mean they would have to pay teachers a better salary. So some governments accept the shortage as they don't want to spend coin. Schools and parents however do feel the shortage of male teachers in Primary, and therefore as a male applicant for a Primary job you're at an advantage, which is also illustrated by the other replies to this topic.
Actually there are plenty of governments that actually do campaign to boost the reputation of the profession in order to attract more males (as the job doesn't have the standing that men would like a job to have), as that's a relatively cheap (but largely ineffective) and one-off effort, but without more salary and enough opportunities to move up the ladder at a school (other than a Headship), not enough men will consider teaching as a lifelong career to fill the shortage.
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@Heliotrope
No, its not a "real" shortage because you use the word real. Its not a real shortage because some people would like more male DTs/ITs in primary. Thats not a shortage, thats a preference, and its not even one the majority want.
Is there an IT/DT that thinks they are paid enough, or too much. Thats edu, every IT/DT thinks they should be paid more, but if goverment doesnt want to pay more coin, or provide incentives, or Unis provide males with scholarships for primary EPP/ITT programs or even ISs at the fairs having a sign saying "male primary applicants only" or anything at all that would actually indicate a shortage and some attempt to resolve it? No, because there isnt any, there is no crises and there is no shortage. There is no advantage to being a male primary IT.
There are plenty of male ITs in other subjects and age levels.
No, its not a "real" shortage because you use the word real. Its not a real shortage because some people would like more male DTs/ITs in primary. Thats not a shortage, thats a preference, and its not even one the majority want.
Is there an IT/DT that thinks they are paid enough, or too much. Thats edu, every IT/DT thinks they should be paid more, but if goverment doesnt want to pay more coin, or provide incentives, or Unis provide males with scholarships for primary EPP/ITT programs or even ISs at the fairs having a sign saying "male primary applicants only" or anything at all that would actually indicate a shortage and some attempt to resolve it? No, because there isnt any, there is no crises and there is no shortage. There is no advantage to being a male primary IT.
There are plenty of male ITs in other subjects and age levels.
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shadowjack
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Re: Male applicant for Primary job at an advantage, or not?
@PsyGuy -
"There are plenty of male ITs in other subjects and age levels."
Yup. Just not in primary, which makes it easier for male teachers to get a job in primary.
"There are plenty of male ITs in other subjects and age levels."
Yup. Just not in primary, which makes it easier for male teachers to get a job in primary.
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@SJ
No it doesnt, by that line of thought there would be an advantage in recruiting being a woman in STEM applying for SLL maths or physics or ICT,. By that line of thought there should be a HUGE advantage in being a minority in getting any IE appointment. Neither of those presumed advantages are true, and neither is being a male primary IT.
No it doesnt, by that line of thought there would be an advantage in recruiting being a woman in STEM applying for SLL maths or physics or ICT,. By that line of thought there should be a HUGE advantage in being a minority in getting any IE appointment. Neither of those presumed advantages are true, and neither is being a male primary IT.
Re: Male applicant for Primary job at an advantage, or not?
Incorrect attempt at logic.
Some schools and leaders have a stated preference for hiring male primary teachers. This gives an advantage to matching candidates.
Without such a preference in other situations, there is no advantage.
Apples and oranges.
Some schools and leaders have a stated preference for hiring male primary teachers. This gives an advantage to matching candidates.
Without such a preference in other situations, there is no advantage.
Apples and oranges.
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Heliotrope
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Re: Reply
If there are a lot of schools that would like to hire a competent male Primary teacher (and there are, Google it), and there aren't enough male candidates, then there is a shortage. Yes, they would then fill those vacancies with female candidates because they need a teacher, but they would have rather hired a male (both being equally competent). So being male would have given you an advantage when applying.
There's also the anecdotal evidence in this thread to support this.
The shortage is felt by schools and parents.
I mentioned the salary because when the government commissioned research to find out why not enough males choose to pursue a career in Primary education, research found that the reasons were (a) salary, (b) the inability to move up the ladder in a meaningful way, (c) the standing of the profession.
Governments being governments they try to avoid spending serious money and rather go with the cheaper option (c), although very unsuccessfully.
Yes, most teachers think they should be paid more, especially in DE (personally I think I'm being paid more than enough), but apparently for males considering a career in Primary education, the relative low salary is a reason to reconsider and go a different path.
The fact that the government doesn't throw cash at the problem doesn't mean there's not a shortage.
Agree with both @shadowjack and @sid, they're totally right.
There's also the anecdotal evidence in this thread to support this.
The shortage is felt by schools and parents.
I mentioned the salary because when the government commissioned research to find out why not enough males choose to pursue a career in Primary education, research found that the reasons were (a) salary, (b) the inability to move up the ladder in a meaningful way, (c) the standing of the profession.
Governments being governments they try to avoid spending serious money and rather go with the cheaper option (c), although very unsuccessfully.
Yes, most teachers think they should be paid more, especially in DE (personally I think I'm being paid more than enough), but apparently for males considering a career in Primary education, the relative low salary is a reason to reconsider and go a different path.
The fact that the government doesn't throw cash at the problem doesn't mean there's not a shortage.
Agree with both @shadowjack and @sid, they're totally right.
Re: Male applicant for Primary job at an advantage, or not?
@ Dave: "No it doesnt, by that line of thought there would be an advantage in recruiting being a woman in STEM applying for SLL maths or physics or ICT."
As it happens, Dave, when I recruit, I do look actively for women who teach chemistry, physics, math or computer science. And nor am I alone in this. Girls need role models to encourage them to take up STEM subjects.
@Dave: "By that line of thought there should be a HUGE advantage in being a minority in getting any IE appointment."
And helping to enhance the diversity of our faculty is another consideration I take into account.
In neither case would I hire an inferior teacher, simply because of gender or color or ethnic origin or religion, but these factors certainly play a part in decision-making.
As it happens, Dave, when I recruit, I do look actively for women who teach chemistry, physics, math or computer science. And nor am I alone in this. Girls need role models to encourage them to take up STEM subjects.
@Dave: "By that line of thought there should be a HUGE advantage in being a minority in getting any IE appointment."
And helping to enhance the diversity of our faculty is another consideration I take into account.
In neither case would I hire an inferior teacher, simply because of gender or color or ethnic origin or religion, but these factors certainly play a part in decision-making.
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@sid
Very valid use of logic, which only permits assessment of the validity of the conclusion to the major and minor premise. Your assumption is that leadership has a stated preference for hiring male primary teachers, and this is untrue. There is no advantage for male primary ITs.
@Heliotrope
No there isnt, if IE NEEDS to hire male primary ITs and there arent enough than there is a shortage. As has been. No there is no evidence that this need exists sand that there is a shortage, there are some people you have identified that would prefer there to be more male primary ITs, this is not a shortage. There is no shortage to feel.
Do you have a single (none ME, non co-ed) IS that has advertised for male primary ITs only, any Uni that has a scholarship for male primary ITs, no you dont, you have some academics who say they would like more male primary ITs, you have a preference by non-hireing entities not a shortage.
Very valid use of logic, which only permits assessment of the validity of the conclusion to the major and minor premise. Your assumption is that leadership has a stated preference for hiring male primary teachers, and this is untrue. There is no advantage for male primary ITs.
@Heliotrope
No there isnt, if IE NEEDS to hire male primary ITs and there arent enough than there is a shortage. As has been. No there is no evidence that this need exists sand that there is a shortage, there are some people you have identified that would prefer there to be more male primary ITs, this is not a shortage. There is no shortage to feel.
Do you have a single (none ME, non co-ed) IS that has advertised for male primary ITs only, any Uni that has a scholarship for male primary ITs, no you dont, you have some academics who say they would like more male primary ITs, you have a preference by non-hireing entities not a shortage.
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Heliotrope
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Re: Reply
Shortage is defined as 'a situation in which something cannot be obtained in sufficient amount'.
So if you want to see if there's a shortage of male Primary teachers, one ought to look at those doing the 'obtaining' of male Primary teachers: schools. And then proceed to see whether or not schools find it hard to find enough competent ones. That this is the case is supported by almost all of the replies in this thread (yours excluded), and many articles (that are not just one person's opinion).
Your experience differs from those of the other people replying to this thread I guess, people whom actually work at Primary, and your may want to discredit their accounts, and that's your prerogative. You may have your experience, and the rest will have theirs.
So if you want to see if there's a shortage of male Primary teachers, one ought to look at those doing the 'obtaining' of male Primary teachers: schools. And then proceed to see whether or not schools find it hard to find enough competent ones. That this is the case is supported by almost all of the replies in this thread (yours excluded), and many articles (that are not just one person's opinion).
Your experience differs from those of the other people replying to this thread I guess, people whom actually work at Primary, and your may want to discredit their accounts, and that's your prerogative. You may have your experience, and the rest will have theirs.
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@Heliotrope
No its not, according to the OED "Shortage, n, A state or situation in which something needed cannot be obtained in sufficient amounts.". Something NEEDED, not a preference.
So if we want to look at recruiters and leadership who hire ITs, than first there must be a demonstrated need, not a want, not a preference. Not, an "oh well gender plays a factor in my metrics when choosing who to hire, because thats not a need then. Can you provide one scholarship for male primary DTs/ITs, can you provide a vacancy posting for a coed IS (not an all girls or all boys section in some ME IS) that stipulates male primary ITs need only apply, or male primary ITs will be given priority consideration, can you provide one regulating authority that incentivizes primary male ITs. I didnt think so.
No its not, according to the OED "Shortage, n, A state or situation in which something needed cannot be obtained in sufficient amounts.". Something NEEDED, not a preference.
So if we want to look at recruiters and leadership who hire ITs, than first there must be a demonstrated need, not a want, not a preference. Not, an "oh well gender plays a factor in my metrics when choosing who to hire, because thats not a need then. Can you provide one scholarship for male primary DTs/ITs, can you provide a vacancy posting for a coed IS (not an all girls or all boys section in some ME IS) that stipulates male primary ITs need only apply, or male primary ITs will be given priority consideration, can you provide one regulating authority that incentivizes primary male ITs. I didnt think so.
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Heliotrope
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Re: Male applicant for Primary job at an advantage, or not?
It's the school that 'obtains' them, so governments or university really don't matter here as they don't do the hiring, or running of the school. I already addressed that: they don't like to pay money for something if they can avoid it.
Having a more gender-balanced staff benefits a Primary school. It has been sufficiently demonstrated that having male teachers as role models in the classroom (in addition to female ones) at Primary level is beneficial for students.
Lots and lots of recruiters and leadership who hire ITs know this and try to hire more males to get closer to a better balance.
A lot of parents want this as well, which is another incentive to do so.
They don't need it to keep the school afloat. They can also keep it afloat by only hiring teachers straight out of college with zero or barely two years of experience. They want experienced staff though, if they can afford it, to make it a better school.
In the same way, they need a better gender balance, because they want to improve their schools, and they want to listen to parents.
You can also arrive at this conclusion from all the experience posted here (and stories to be read elsewhere) that male applicants are generally at an advantage for Primary jobs, if equally competent. Why would they be at an advantage if there was no need for them?
Are you saying your singular experience as a Secondary teacher or your flawed logic trumps the experiences of all the Primary teachers and recruiters that have posted here, saying something different than you?
I went in without an opinion, as I didn't know, hence I asked this question. I once heard someone say this and was curious if it was true. All the replies here, a fair amount of unbiased research, as well as talks with my colleagues about their past experiences, have led me to the conclusion that there is indeed an advantage to being a male when applying for a Primary position. You disagree. Let's leave it at that.
Having a more gender-balanced staff benefits a Primary school. It has been sufficiently demonstrated that having male teachers as role models in the classroom (in addition to female ones) at Primary level is beneficial for students.
Lots and lots of recruiters and leadership who hire ITs know this and try to hire more males to get closer to a better balance.
A lot of parents want this as well, which is another incentive to do so.
They don't need it to keep the school afloat. They can also keep it afloat by only hiring teachers straight out of college with zero or barely two years of experience. They want experienced staff though, if they can afford it, to make it a better school.
In the same way, they need a better gender balance, because they want to improve their schools, and they want to listen to parents.
You can also arrive at this conclusion from all the experience posted here (and stories to be read elsewhere) that male applicants are generally at an advantage for Primary jobs, if equally competent. Why would they be at an advantage if there was no need for them?
Are you saying your singular experience as a Secondary teacher or your flawed logic trumps the experiences of all the Primary teachers and recruiters that have posted here, saying something different than you?
I went in without an opinion, as I didn't know, hence I asked this question. I once heard someone say this and was curious if it was true. All the replies here, a fair amount of unbiased research, as well as talks with my colleagues about their past experiences, have led me to the conclusion that there is indeed an advantage to being a male when applying for a Primary position. You disagree. Let's leave it at that.