Just out of curiosity:
Are male teachers at an advantage when applying for jobs at Primary, with all other factors being equal?
I've been told this might be the case, since usually most teachers at Primary are female, and generally schools prefer a balance, or at least less of an imbalance.
I teach at Secondary myself, and don't know anyone in Primary leadership to confirm this. At my current school I think it's about a 65/35 split between female and male Primary teachers, better than my previous schools. Back home it's 80/20 at a lot of schools, or even 90/10 at some, so it could be a lot worse.
And any other examples of where gender makes a difference in the hiring process (for both Primary and Secondary)?
Male applicant for Primary job at an advantage, or not?
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Heliotrope
- Posts: 1168
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Response
No male primary ITs arent at an advantage, if ISs wanted more male primary ITs it would have happened, the preference is for that maternal IT/DT in primary.
Other than that, there is a higher preference for female school counselors in IE and even higher for school nurses (in DE). There is a higher preference in IE for male executive leadership.
Other than that, there is a higher preference for female school counselors in IE and even higher for school nurses (in DE). There is a higher preference in IE for male executive leadership.
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Illiane_Blues
Re: Male applicant for Primary job at an advantage, or not?
Yes, competent male Primary teachers have a leg up over female applicants, at all the schools I've worked at at least, well, the ones where I've talked about this to colleagues from Primary.
A colleague who works in Primary at my previous school was told by the Head of Primary that it's hard to find suitable male candidates, and he was asking teachers if they know any from previous schools, urging them to ask those male former colleagues to apply. There was also pressure from the Primary parents to hire more male teachers the year after.
They won't lower their standards, but if a male and female applicant who are the same in all aspects but their gender, they would prefer the male one, up to the point where the female to male ratio is a bit healthier.
Your experience may differ of course, and it seems at the schools where PsyGuy has worked there was no shortage of or need for male Primary teachers. Maybe someone else has had an experience with this?
A colleague who works in Primary at my previous school was told by the Head of Primary that it's hard to find suitable male candidates, and he was asking teachers if they know any from previous schools, urging them to ask those male former colleagues to apply. There was also pressure from the Primary parents to hire more male teachers the year after.
They won't lower their standards, but if a male and female applicant who are the same in all aspects but their gender, they would prefer the male one, up to the point where the female to male ratio is a bit healthier.
Your experience may differ of course, and it seems at the schools where PsyGuy has worked there was no shortage of or need for male Primary teachers. Maybe someone else has had an experience with this?
Re: Male applicant for Primary job at an advantage, or not?
Data Dave strikes again. More blurt and zero evidence. Of course, he has never recruited a teacher in his life and so has no idea what school leaders look for.
Elementary principals, in general, like to have a proportion of men in class teacher positions. As Illiane B notes, no sensible recruiter would hire an inferior teacher just because of gender, but there is a well established recognition that male role models in elementary can be very helpful.
Nor is there a preference for female counselors in international schools. There are more female counselors on the market - just as there are more female ES classroom teachers on the market - but that isn't a product of any desire on the part of school administrators.
The question of gender diversity in top leadership positions has been a matter of concern for some years. Fortunately, it seems that times are changing and more and more women are taking on head of school positions. Sad to say, that isn't true when it comes to ethnic diversity.
Elementary principals, in general, like to have a proportion of men in class teacher positions. As Illiane B notes, no sensible recruiter would hire an inferior teacher just because of gender, but there is a well established recognition that male role models in elementary can be very helpful.
Nor is there a preference for female counselors in international schools. There are more female counselors on the market - just as there are more female ES classroom teachers on the market - but that isn't a product of any desire on the part of school administrators.
The question of gender diversity in top leadership positions has been a matter of concern for some years. Fortunately, it seems that times are changing and more and more women are taking on head of school positions. Sad to say, that isn't true when it comes to ethnic diversity.
Re: Male applicant for Primary job at an advantage, or not?
Rants to the side...
It very much matters on the school, the climate and who's hiring. I've worked in schools that expressly wanted more males in primary, and sought them out. One school made it to 50-50. I've worked in one school that sought to systematically replace all males with females in primary. No joke. So roll the dice and apply.
It very much matters on the school, the climate and who's hiring. I've worked in schools that expressly wanted more males in primary, and sought them out. One school made it to 50-50. I've worked in one school that sought to systematically replace all males with females in primary. No joke. So roll the dice and apply.
Re: Male applicant for Primary job at an advantage, or not?
I'm not sure if male primary teachers have an advantage over their female counterparts per se, but my school definitely values maintaining a healthy gender balance. We currently have almost a 50/50 ratio in every grade in our primary school. However, all the incoming teachers for next year are females, and that tells me that gender is not the determining factor when it comes to employment.
This is just my perception, but male primary teachers are treated like unicorns in the US though. Especially African American teachers in lower grades are highly sought after in my district (a large, urban district) because there are not many.
This is just my perception, but male primary teachers are treated like unicorns in the US though. Especially African American teachers in lower grades are highly sought after in my district (a large, urban district) because there are not many.
Discussion
I find the whole gender balance issue a red herring, its social desirability, its something leadership and recruiters like to say, because it sounds good, but its not anyones priority and they arent going to go out of their way to make it happen, because the mechanisms are there to make it happen. Its not really a leadership issues though, its an ownership and parent issue, they get what they want, and parents would mostly prefer a maternal IT in a primary classroom. If that market went the other way and male ITs became an actually desirable commodity than the current system can easily adapt. Gender diversity in primary is just one of those hot button issues that leadership cant afford to be against, and in many regions it would actually be illegal discrimination. Its the same with ethnicity, theres no benefit to presenting against against diversity of any form for leadership, yet we still have the vast majority of ITs in primary as female and its vastly a white Caucasian demographic, regardless of what leadership, recruiters and ownership say. The equals diverse primary IS is more the exception than the rule, and no one is really going out of there way to change that.
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Illiane_Blues
Re: Male applicant for Primary job at an advantage, or not?
Some do however (leadership and also parents), quite a lot actually.
There's just less supply of male primary teachers, so also fewer good ones to go around.
I've been at schools where they really really wanted to hire more, leadership striving for a balance and with parents also asking for it, but not enough good ones applying. To compensate for it, they ended up hiring a lot of male TAs.
There's just less supply of male primary teachers, so also fewer good ones to go around.
I've been at schools where they really really wanted to hire more, leadership striving for a balance and with parents also asking for it, but not enough good ones applying. To compensate for it, they ended up hiring a lot of male TAs.
Re: Male applicant for Primary job at an advantage, or not?
For what it's worth, I worked at an elite Chinese school. At the time I was hired there were 2 elementary male teachers and a 3rd was hired in my pool. When I left 4 years later, there was an overt commitment to hire more men at the elementary level at each grade level. They would not have hired a substandard man just to get a gender balance, but I would say that a good male elementary/primary teacher was going to move to the top of the pile at that time. I would suspect that would be true in any school that wanted to make that move.
Reply
@Illiane_Blues
Actually, not its not quite a lot. Theres less a supply of male primary ITs, because there isnt a demand for male primary ITs or DTS. Your position that there were an increase in hiring more TAs is not indicative of more ITs, TAs are not equivalent to ITs.
Actually, not its not quite a lot. Theres less a supply of male primary ITs, because there isnt a demand for male primary ITs or DTS. Your position that there were an increase in hiring more TAs is not indicative of more ITs, TAs are not equivalent to ITs.
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Illiane_Blues
Re: Male applicant for Primary job at an advantage, or not?
That's not how supply & demand always works.
A large demand doesn't always create enough supply to fulfil that need.
If you do a simple Google search you'll find out that qualified male Primary teachers are in high demand by schools in the US, the UK, Canada and Australia, but not enough males choose to become Primary teachers.
I didn't say TAs are equivalent to ITs, I said they compensated for the lack of available male ITs by hiring male TAs, so at least there would be a male presence in most of the classrooms. They would have preferred to hire male ITs, but there's just not enough supply.
A large demand doesn't always create enough supply to fulfil that need.
If you do a simple Google search you'll find out that qualified male Primary teachers are in high demand by schools in the US, the UK, Canada and Australia, but not enough males choose to become Primary teachers.
I didn't say TAs are equivalent to ITs, I said they compensated for the lack of available male ITs by hiring male TAs, so at least there would be a male presence in most of the classrooms. They would have preferred to hire male ITs, but there's just not enough supply.
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falloutmike
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:06 am
Re: Male applicant for Primary job at an advantage, or not?
I am a male with an EY/Primary degree. I definitely think it has its pros and cons.
+ Schools want diverse staff, whether that be gender, experience etc.
+ There are fewer males so if they do want to add more/replace current male teachers we have a smaller pool and have a greater chance of getting our resumes looked at.
*** As mentioned before I do not believe (decent) schools will hire just because of my gender, although if I have equal qualifications/philosophy as a female, I may have a better chance (especially if M/F is 20/80~)
+I have had an interview at a top tier 2 who flat out said we are super excited to have a male EY teacher application who has a good resume (so maybe a lot come through but with sub standard resumes...) She mentioned how few come along that she would want to interview (again based on their CV's). I was offered the position the next day.
+We put out a yearly survey where families can attempt to request a certain teacher, my name always has the most sign-ups. I think I am a great teacher, but know the other teachers in my grade level are fantastic as well. I believe it is because I am a male. Most don't give a reason but several families each year say how happy they are for their kids to have a male EY/Primary teacher.
- My primary school back home had two primary teachers and they were also highly requested.
+ A principal told me I will get more interviews than another teacher who had a similar resume because I am a male, and in more of a demand.
+Talking to friends and asking them about their primary years, almost everyone remembers who their male primary teacher was, as it was a diverse experience.
+We talk about having women doctors in books, and male nurses etc. Having male EY/Primary teachers does that same thing but in the real world, and helps to show kids it doesn't matter what gender you are. All careers are available to everyone.
-I have had reputable schools in Asia flat out tell me no to a position because I am a male, and that parents get scared of the idea, or that it is not common for males to teach those grades so, "sorry we would love to have you, but due to our parental expectations blah blah"
Overall I think it is totally based on a school to school basis and what the parents and admin want. Although I do believe it does put myself one step above or at the very least sets me apart from the rest of the "average" female applicant pile.
+ Schools want diverse staff, whether that be gender, experience etc.
+ There are fewer males so if they do want to add more/replace current male teachers we have a smaller pool and have a greater chance of getting our resumes looked at.
*** As mentioned before I do not believe (decent) schools will hire just because of my gender, although if I have equal qualifications/philosophy as a female, I may have a better chance (especially if M/F is 20/80~)
+I have had an interview at a top tier 2 who flat out said we are super excited to have a male EY teacher application who has a good resume (so maybe a lot come through but with sub standard resumes...) She mentioned how few come along that she would want to interview (again based on their CV's). I was offered the position the next day.
+We put out a yearly survey where families can attempt to request a certain teacher, my name always has the most sign-ups. I think I am a great teacher, but know the other teachers in my grade level are fantastic as well. I believe it is because I am a male. Most don't give a reason but several families each year say how happy they are for their kids to have a male EY/Primary teacher.
- My primary school back home had two primary teachers and they were also highly requested.
+ A principal told me I will get more interviews than another teacher who had a similar resume because I am a male, and in more of a demand.
+Talking to friends and asking them about their primary years, almost everyone remembers who their male primary teacher was, as it was a diverse experience.
+We talk about having women doctors in books, and male nurses etc. Having male EY/Primary teachers does that same thing but in the real world, and helps to show kids it doesn't matter what gender you are. All careers are available to everyone.
-I have had reputable schools in Asia flat out tell me no to a position because I am a male, and that parents get scared of the idea, or that it is not common for males to teach those grades so, "sorry we would love to have you, but due to our parental expectations blah blah"
Overall I think it is totally based on a school to school basis and what the parents and admin want. Although I do believe it does put myself one step above or at the very least sets me apart from the rest of the "average" female applicant pile.
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Heliotrope
- Posts: 1168
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: Male applicant for Primary job at an advantage, or not?
Thanks everyone for the feedback.
Since posting I've also talked about it with some of my current colleagues who've come different ISs (mostly Asian ISs, but all continents represented), and their experiences there confirm what you've all said: that male candidates are generally at an advantage when applying for jobs at Primary, provided their CV is equally good as that of a female candidate, except at a few schools here and there, and that there's a shortage of available male ITs for Primary positions.
I've heard similar stories as @falloutmike (great post btw), where the male teachers are requested more by parents.
Thanks again!
Since posting I've also talked about it with some of my current colleagues who've come different ISs (mostly Asian ISs, but all continents represented), and their experiences there confirm what you've all said: that male candidates are generally at an advantage when applying for jobs at Primary, provided their CV is equally good as that of a female candidate, except at a few schools here and there, and that there's a shortage of available male ITs for Primary positions.
I've heard similar stories as @falloutmike (great post btw), where the male teachers are requested more by parents.
Thanks again!
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Heliotrope
- Posts: 1168
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: Male applicant for Primary job at an advantage, or not?
Yes, there is a male teacher shortage in all those countries, and schools are very eager to hire them.
There is a demand, just not enough supply to fill the need, for various reasons.
Read all about it:
https://www.edutopia.org/male-teacher-shortage
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/201 ... 103585138/
https://www.firstfiveyears.org.au/lifes ... -educators
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/0 ... s-working/
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/07/sund ... ching.html
https://vancouversun.com/opinion/column ... e-teachers
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/rende ... 554b5105d5
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/men-teach ... d=18784172
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/c ... en-8570421
etc. (Google away)
There is a demand, just not enough supply to fill the need, for various reasons.
Read all about it:
https://www.edutopia.org/male-teacher-shortage
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/201 ... 103585138/
https://www.firstfiveyears.org.au/lifes ... -educators
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/0 ... s-working/
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/07/sund ... ching.html
https://vancouversun.com/opinion/column ... e-teachers
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/rende ... 554b5105d5
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/men-teach ... d=18784172
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/c ... en-8570421
etc. (Google away)