The International Schools Review Forum

wrldtrvlr123 wrote:

> What data has been presented in this thread?

You forget that to some people, opinions are the same thing as data. Also, sources are unnecessary. Data is what you say when you want to say garbage and spray perfume words on it.

@SparkleMotion

@Dcotor is asking other members to name a culture not a race. Theres nothing racists about the comment, its culteralist, SK is a culture, Chinese is a culture, etc. There are only 4 races, Mongoloid, Caucasoid, Negroid, and Australoid. Even if it is a race, and even if it is negative, if its true, so what. Why ignore (valid) data because it offends someones delicate sensibilities, or is negative, data is negative sometimes, thats just the way it is sometime.

@WT123

@Doctor made an observation, thats anecdotal data. Its anecdotal, but its data.

@Thames Pirate

You dont know hat data is.

PsyGuy wrote:
>> @WT123
>
> @Doctor made an observation, thats anecdotal data. Its anecdotal, but its data.
===================
It now makes sense why so many of your posts about data make no sense (and what you really mean when you say, "Only data matters"). Good to know.

@WT123

I do not rely on anecdotal data when making claims and statements, it is not a data form I include as part of "research"when I state "I only post from experience, research and trusted and reliable sources". However, an observational point sample as @Doctor has done is data. There is nothing wrong with that, its a methodology that has weakness and restrictions, but there is nothing inherently invalid with it, and i dont see how @Doctor has attempted to obfuscate or represent the basis for the source of their claims as being anything other than their personal observation and experience.

wrldtrvlr123 wrote:
> PsyGuy wrote:
> >> @WT123
> >
> > @Doctor made an observation, thats anecdotal data. Its anecdotal, but its data.
>
> ===================
> It now makes sense why so many of your posts about data make no sense (and what you
> really mean when you say, "Only data matters"). Good to know.

PsyGuy is correct - it's anecdotal evidence and that too counts as data.

If I had ask "the best and worst disciplined students in the world" I'm guessing the majority would agree the worst disciplined students would be in the ME and the best disciplined would be in Asia. This would be based on anecdotal evidence, I can't imagine anyone disputing it and I doubt I would be flagged as a racist for asking the question. Probably people would just assume that I wanted to know which countries to avoid if I wanted to avoid classroom management problems.

Anecdotal data is data, sure, but it is generally not sufficient for justification of claims as it often does not hold up to the scientific method and is influenced by things like confirmation bias.

Anecdotes showing exceptions happen are fine for their purpose; they are meant to show exactly that. Anecdotes used to present as evidence that something is likely or standard are incorrect.

Anecdotes are a data POINT. Psyguy likes to claim he only posts data while disparaging others for stating anecdotes as such. There IS a difference.

Doctor, that may have been your experience, but that does not mean it is free from bias or that it is a fact.

@Thames Pirate

Anecdotes are one type of anecdotal data. Anecdotal data can be just as valid, reliable and valid as any other type of data and can support a wide range of conclusions, if something is true, is observed, and an anecdote forms around it, it doesnt become less true, because its an anecdote. Lots of data is subject to bias, including confirmation bias.

This isnt what we have here we an observational point sample, a type of anecdotal data, it is absolutely evidence, its up to others to disapprove it isnt true, science doesnt prove anything is true, science and the scientific method can only demonstrate that something isnt true. Anecdotal data can absolutely show that some claim is standard or likely.

Yes anecdotes are a data point, ALL evidence is a data point, and its ALL still DATA.
As i wrote I dont rely on anecdotes as a data type.

It is @Doctors observation, and experience and that doesnt mean it is biased nor that it isnt fact.

So I expect you'll drop the mocking of my using anecdotes (which I openly acknowledge to be such) while you "only post from data"?

I won't hold my breath, but I will remember that to you, data is the fantasy anecdote playing in your mind.

@Thames Pirate

I dont "mock" your anecdotes, I disagree with them, mainly because theyre wrong. As I previously wrote, I do not incorporate anecdotes as "research" when I state "I only post from experience, research, and reliable and trusted sources".

Right, only your anecdotes are data that substitutes for facts while mine are "wrong." Got it.

You have never posted evidence for any of your claims, so you may as well post anecdotes. Your stories are always entertaining.

@PsyGuy
How can you 'disagree' with an anecdote?

He told me I was wrong when I said we saved money in Europe. Apparently he is clairvoyant in addition to his other sterling qualities.

Whatever. The rational world knows how anecdotes should and should not be used. They also know not to take him too seriously. Just get some popcorn and settle in.

It is a precept of academic research (and schools are academic institutions - sorry to state the obvious but it feels necessary under the circumstances) that for any research data to be regarded as valid, the source(s) of the data must be made available. Such disclosure allows peer review, and researchers with integrity welcome such a process.

Anecdotal data is permissible if it a) well documented and b) demonstrated to be significant to the case at hand.

Thames Pirate wrote:
> Anecdotal data is data, sure, but it is generally not sufficient for
> justification of claims as it often does not hold up to the scientific
> method and is influenced by things like confirmation bias.
>
> Anecdotes showing exceptions happen are fine for their purpose; they are
> meant to show exactly that. Anecdotes used to present as evidence that
> something is likely or standard are incorrect.
>
> Anecdotes are a data POINT. Psyguy likes to claim he only posts data while
> disparaging others for stating anecdotes as such. There IS a difference.
>
> Doctor, that may have been your experience, but that does not mean it is
> free from bias or that it is a fact.

It’s data... by a stretch. An argument can be supported by anecdotes but it may not rely upon them. It’s supporting data but anecdotes can not be used to show causation (x then y therefore x caused y). Post hoc ergo prosper hoc is the logical fallacy happening here - and some people are wearing themselves out with these fallacies.

Anecdotes are not valid data without proven causation. The sample size is only N=1, they are not controlled, and they are not representative. Actual data has a substantial and appropriate sample size, is controlled by established practices of collection, and represents (as accurately as possible) times when x caused y and those instances where x did not cause y. Acedotes can’t pass this test by saying simply that sometimes there was causation while “there are exceptions”. It doesn’t allow for accurate interpretation of data.

By contrast, anecdotal “data” is useful when used alongside of actual data that isn’t based solely in personal experience. Anecdotes can help clarify sets of complex data or offer an explanation for trends that can be seen in the data. You can only use anecdotes to show probabilistic arguments (and not causal arguments) when the actual data has already proven causation. (Data shows x causes y. In this case x then y). X in this case probably caused yAlso, even in Math we can prove things by way of contradiction - to say that something can not be absolutely correct if we can see an obvious instance where it is false.

Yes, as you later say, normal humans understand how to properly use and interpret anecdotes.

TL/DR - While calling anecdotal evidence “data” isn’t technically incorrect, you certainly cannot use anecdotes to prove causation without committing a logical fallacy.

@ThamesPirate - "He told me I was wrong when I said we saved money in Europe. Apparently he is clairvoyant in addition to his other sterling qualities."

A ha ha! I saw what you did there. Well played!

<passes the popcorn>