Bangkok Pollution

PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

No, its firmly in the middle. The values between rankings are not equidistant, its not an interval scale. Japan is so popular with about 75% of the variance that using quantiles with few divisions doesnt yield useful differentiation. Using tertiles you have three divisions a high, a middle, and a low and JP occupies all the high all the middle and a portion of the low. Using quartiles and JP occupies all of the upper and all of the high and low middle quartiles. It isnt until you get to the pentile (5 divisions) that the regions other than JP occupy more than one (and the bottom division), from there increasing the divisions (such as dectile, 10 divisions) than Thailand is no longer in the lowest or the highest division and thus is in the middle. So yes, firmly in the middle.

SK has a very positive image in western culture, its modern, high quality infrastructure, cosmopolitan, everything works, its very close to JP, doesnt have the heat of the more southern Asian regions, and benefits from popularity of Kpop. The only consistent negative is its proximity to North Korea. From the IE perspective SK has a very small bimodal 2nd and middle tier, unlike Thailand which has a normal curve distribution and a typical 2nd/middle tier. For this ana1ysis @teacher tan limited their claims to first tier, and mine ignores them completely.

There are some very good ISs in Thailand and some very good ISs in Japan, every region has all three tiers. For some ITs the heat and the air quality in Thailand are deal breakers. Radiation isnt an issue for Japan. Just as the political issues in Thailand arent really an issue (the coup was a non-event for foreigners), dont go around insulting the monarchy in Thailand and youll be fine.

Yes Asia is a very broad region, but youve been a member and contributor long enough to know the difference of usage between East (pacific) Asia ("Asia") and South Asia (the ME and India).

@teacher tan

Accreditation and infrastructure of ISs as you claim mean nothing (and are erroneous, JPs are superior), JPs ISs could be in shacks and they would still be in Japan and still more desirable than Thailand.
I have never seen an accreditation report that included barbecue pits as a criteria.
There is no such thing as enlightening PD.

@Overhere

What @teacher tan fails to recognize is that Japan is the top of far more ITs lists than Thailand is. @teacher tan erroneously believes that Thailands 1st tier ISs are superior to Japan, but that even assuming it were true that superior ISs means a superior region, which is a false equivalence fallacy.
teacher tan
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Re: Bangkok Pollution

Post by teacher tan »

PG
The breadth and depth of faculty experience, school infrastructure, saving potential, admin credentials at BKK tier schools are superior to their counterparts in Japan. Pools and BBQ pits are personal comforts in the BKK condominiums, not part of accreditation reports. You can't say Japan is competitive just because it's a first world country. The school quality matters. Take a look at the respective websites and alumni track record, there's a sea of difference.
wrldtrvlr123
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Re: Bangkok Pollution

Post by wrldtrvlr123 »

PsyGuy wrote:
> @Heliotrope
>
> No, its firmly in the middle. The values between rankings are not equidistant, its
> not an interval scale. Japan is so popular with about 75% of the variance that using
> quantiles with few divisions doesnt yield useful differentiation. Using tertiles
> you have three divisions a high, a middle, and a low and JP occupies all the high
> all the middle and a portion of the low. Using quartiles and JP occupies all of
> the upper and all of the high and low middle quartiles. It isnt until you get to
> the pentile (5 divisions) that the regions other than JP occupy more than one (and
> the bottom division), from there increasing the divisions (such as dectile, 10 divisions)
> than Thailand is no longer in the lowest or the highest division and thus is in
> the middle. So yes, firmly in the middle.
>
> SK has a very positive image in western culture, its modern, high quality infrastructure,
> cosmopolitan, everything works, its very close to JP, doesnt have the heat of the
> more southern Asian regions, and benefits from popularity of Kpop. The only consistent
> negative is its proximity to North Korea. From the IE perspective SK has a very
> small bimodal 2nd and middle tier, unlike Thailand which has a normal curve distribution
> and a typical 2nd/middle tier. For this ana1ysis @teacher tan limited their claims
> to first tier, and mine ignores them completely.
>
> There are some very good ISs in Thailand and some very good ISs in Japan, every region
> has all three tiers. For some ITs the heat and the air quality in Thailand are deal
> breakers. Radiation isnt an issue for Japan. Just as the political issues in Thailand
> arent really an issue (the coup was a non-event for foreigners), dont go around
> insulting the monarchy in Thailand and youll be fine.
====================
All the pseudo-intellectual babble in the world is not going to take the stink of what is just your opinion.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@teacher tan

Only one of those is true, and only under restricted operational definitions.

Among tier 1/elite tier ISs:
1) Faculty Experience: Japans is superior, Thailand has a higher degree of younger and less experienced ITs. Japan has more tier 1/elite tier ISs than Thailand does.
2) School Infrastructure: Japans are superior in quality though Thailands are marginally larger.
3) Admin Credentials: Utter bunk its a wash.
The only factor that is potentially true is savings potential, Thailand has a potentially lower cost of living allowing for increased savings.

None of that matters though, your claim that "school quality matters" is an unsubstantiated claim, that even if it were relevant and material continues to be false equivalency, Japans tier1/elite tier ISs could be shacks run by goblins and it would still be Japan and more popular and competitive than Thailand because its Japan. Japans desirability and competitiveness is so much higher than all other Asian regions combined that the only way the Thailand 1st/Elite tier ISs could compete with desirability and marketability would be to scope them up, and relocate them to Kyoto.

Japan doesnt have massively superior desirability and competitiveness for its ISs because its a first world country, its massively superior to Thailand because its Japan and all the culture, and lifestyle that comes with being Japan.

Further, HK also beats Thailand, it isnt until third and fourth place that Thailand is tied with SK.

They are personal preferences of yours, that you just choose to value.
Their websites (marketing) are a wash. Alumni track record means nothing, just as the IS means nothing, because school quality doesnt matter. School quality doesnt contribute to regional desirability.
Heliotrope
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Re: Reply

Post by Heliotrope »

PsyGuy wrote:
> No, its firmly in the middle.

@eion_padraig started this by talking about Thailand being high on the list, so we're talking about rankings.
On a list where the countries are ranked (1,2,3,4, etc.), Thailand is not firmly in the middle based on rank.
But hey whatever, you can use your method. Not that important.


PsyGuy wrote:
> Radiation isnt an issue for Japan.

Uhm, that's what I said.


PsyGuy wrote:
> Yes Asia is a very broad region, but youve been a member and contributor
> long enough to know the difference of usage between East (pacific) Asia
> ("Asia") and South Asia (the ME and India).

UAE and Oman are part of Asia nonetheless.
If you're just using 'Asia' but don't mean Asia, how am I supposed to know what you include?
Do you include the Central Asian countries when you say Asia?
Do you exclude South Asia? And if so, do you consider Myanmar South Asian, or Southeast Asian?
And South Asia most definitely does NOT include the ME:
From Wikipedia (but take your pick of sources): "Modern definitions of South Asia are consistent in including Afghanistan, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Bhutan and Maldives as the constituent countries. Myanmar is included by some scholars in South Asia, but in Southeast Asia by others. Some do not include Afghanistan, others question whether Afghanistan should be considered a part of South Asia or the Middle East."


PsyGuy wrote:
> Japan has more tier 1/elite tier ISs than Thailand does.

Maybe on your list, but the general consensus is that Japan has two, and Thailand has three (two by some). Of course you can argue against the general consensus. Doesn't mean I disagree with you, I think the number of tier 1 schools doesn't necessarily make a country more desirable, and I personally think Japan is a way nicer country to be in than Thailand, despite the cold winters, and I think most teachers would agree, especially those who are not too bothered with saving a lot yet (although without a family you can definitely save in Japan).


By the way, what are the sources for your ranking?
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

Even if you just wanted to look at equidistant rankings Thailand is fourth, its not battling it out for first place, and its not scraping the bottom, its not top three its not bottom three, its firmly in the middle.

Im agreeing with you

If you need it spelled out for you:
Asia: Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Philippines, Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia, Cambodia, Vietnam, Thailand, Laos, Myanmar, China, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Mongolia.
ME: Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Israel, Kuwait, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, UAE, Oman, Egypt, Yemen, Lebanon.
Now you know.

Thats not the general consensus, the general consensus is three 1st/Elite tier ISs in Japan and two in Thailand. Maybe we dont have a consensus.
The number doesnt matter, every region has first tier ISs, and Japans top tier ISs could be shacks run by goblins and it would still be more desirable and competitive than Thailand, because it would still be Japan.
Heliotrope
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Re: Reply

Post by Heliotrope »

PsyGuy wrote:
> Thailand is fourth,
> its not battling it out for first place, and its not scraping the bottom,
> its not top three its not bottom three, its firmly in the middle.

Haha, then everything except the first and last spot could be considered 'firmly in the middle'.
Ok.


> If you need it spelled out for you:
> Asia: Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Philippines, Indonesia, Singapore,
> Malaysia, Cambodia, Vietnam, Thailand, Laos, Myanmar, China, Bangladesh,
> Bhutan, Mongolia.
> ME: Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Israel, Kuwait, Qatar, Saudi Arabia,
> Bahrain, UAE, Oman, Egypt, Yemen, Lebanon.
> Now you know.

And how about Nepal, Papua New Guinea, Brunei, and East Timor?
The only time Pakistan was considered part of the Middle East, was when the same definition also included Sudan and Ethiopia.
Bangladesh is generally considered part of South Asia (as is Nepal btw).
Now you know.


> Thats not the general consensus, the general consensus is three 1st/Elite
> tier ISs in Japan and two in Thailand. Maybe we dont have a consensus.

You've mentioned the three Japan schools before, but I've never heard more than one person agree on a third school.
The ones that everyone mentions are in a North American school in Tokyo that usually gets abbreviated to a four letter acronym, and a IB world school in Yokohama.
In Thailand there's one that also gets abbreviated to a four letter acronym and rhymes with 'fist', another to a three letter one, and the third one in Thailand that always gets mentioned rhymes with 'Batana' (as you probably know is a traditional Rovinj's fishing boat).
Now you know.
Heliotrope
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Re: Bangkok Pollution

Post by Heliotrope »

Btw, I understand treating the Middle East as a separate region, because it's very different from most of Asia.
It's just hard to know where to draw the line on the map when people use 'Asia' but apparently don't include all Asian countries.
Central Asian countries are also quite distinct, and then there's the Caucasus region, and Russia.
Pakistan's inclusion in South Asia makes sense, but although Bhutan and Nepal are usually also considered South Asia, a lot of people might not and would include them in your definition of 'Asia'.
Iran is considered Middle East by some, but most do not.

It just gets unclear.

If you don't want to use the term 'Asia' to describe the actual Asia, I'd argue it would include all Asian countries except:
- the Middle East
- Iran
- Caucasus region
- Russia
Heliotrope
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Re: Bangkok Pollution

Post by Heliotrope »

And that's all I have to say about Bangkok pollution.
Walter
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Re: Bangkok Pollution

Post by Walter »

Dave, Dave, most of the tosh you write simply makes me snicker and move on, but you really are excelling yourself in this thread. Where is the data that supports this absurd list you've drawn up about Japan being #1 in the rankings of Asian destinations? I presume this is more of your so-called "experience and trusted sources". Well as many have observed, your "experience" in year-long (if you're lucky and aren't found out sooner) sojourns in dodgy Tier 3 schools is meaningless, and I can't imagine that you have any acquaintances who have significant leadership time in serious schools.
So here's my OPINION. (Get that, Dave. I wrote it slowly so you would understand.) The best of the schools in Japan don't begin to measure up to best of the other schools in Asia. Not in terms of facilities, resources, curriculum, teaching quality, school culture and energy. Sure people line up to get jobs there, because they have a romanticised view of life in Japan. just like people line up to get to schools in France and Italy, because they have a romanticised view of life in historic Europe. And just like Japan, there are no top quality schools in those countries either.
wrldtrvlr123
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Re: Bangkok Pollution

Post by wrldtrvlr123 »

Walter wrote:
> Dave, Dave, most of the tosh you write simply makes me snicker and move on, but you
> really are excelling yourself in this thread. Where is the data that supports this
> absurd list you've drawn up about Japan being #1 in the rankings of Asian destinations?
> I presume this is more of your so-called "experience and trusted sources". Well
> as many have observed, your "experience" in year-long (if you're lucky and aren't
> found out sooner) sojourns in dodgy Tier 3 schools is meaningless, and I can't imagine
> that you have any acquaintances who have significant leadership time in serious
> schools.
> So here's my OPINION. (Get that, Dave. I wrote it slowly so you would understand.)
> The best of the schools in Japan don't begin to measure up to best of the other
> schools in Asia. Not in terms of facilities, resources, curriculum, teaching quality,
> school culture and energy. Sure people line up to get jobs there, because they have
> a romanticised view of life in Japan. just like people line up to get to schools
> in France and Italy, because they have a romanticised view of life in historic Europe.
> And just like Japan, there are no top quality schools in those countries either.
===================
Thank you for your opinion and not trying to convince us it's fact, data or gospel.

I do think you sell the top 4 letter school near Tokyo a little short. I have spent quite a bit of time on their campus and the campuses of the two top schools in Beijing (in my opinion) and have visited some other campuses in Asia briefly. I think it would be hard to make a case that at least the top Tokyo school doesn't belong in that group in terms of the qualities that you mentioned. And in my opinion, the reality of Japan is pretty amazing, especially compared to Beijing (and we do love HK, Singapore and BKK).
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

Do you understand how numbers work? There are 14 regions in total its not top three its not the bottom three, thats 6 of the 14 leaving 8 for the middle of which Thailand is one of them. How is that not the middle?

How about India and North Korea as well? Timor and Brunei are Asia, Papua New Guinea is Australia (theres what 1 IS there), but okay its Asia too.
Sudan and Ethiopia are in Africa, my experience of them is they arent like Egypt is ME, and Id lump them in with Africa, Pakistan is much like living in the ME, but I okay move that into the rest of the 'stans'
I generally include Nepal with India (as well as Sri Lanka), have to draw lines somewhere.
So thats Bangladesh/Bhutan and East is Asia, a buffer zone of India (Nepal, and Sri Lanka) another buffer zone of the 'stans' and then the ME west of the 'stans' until Africa but including Egypt.
Now you know.

This forum is also very American centered, theres a BS thats actually in Tokyo, an AS thats actually in Tokyo and an IBWS thats actually in Yokohama.
Id agree with the three letter IS thats the AS in BKK and the Batana IS, is the BS and they both have IB at SLL, I dont need to have an IBWS in the first/Elite tier and I wouldnt put FIST in there, but I can see how those who have to have an IBWS because they are really into the IB Koolaid would put FIST in the first/elite tier ISs. So three and three? Are we counting elite/first tier ISs and the region with the most wins, because the issue is ranking of regions that are the most competitive and desirable, and Japan blows all the other ISs away. It doesnt matter what the IS quality is, the list of Alumni, the infrastructure, the credentials of its leadership, it doesnt matter if the reason is a romanticized perception, none of the reasons matter, the data is what matters, and for whatever reason, Japan is far more competitive and desirable than Thailand or anywhere else in Asia.

@Walter

No you wrote it really big, really slow would be o_p_i_n_i_o_n, and your opinion is wrong, because only data matters, but even if this were an issue of opinion vs. opinion yours would still be wrong, and my opinion would still be more credible than yours.
Japan 1st/elite tier ISs are superior to Thailand 1st/elite tier ISs, and are comparable to 1st/elite tier ISs in Asia in terms of "facilities, resources, curriculum, teaching quality, school culture and energy".

Good to see you agreeing with me, the reasons dont matter, the lines do. Doesnt matter if Japans (or Frances or Italys) ISs were in shacks and run by goblins they still get longer lines and more applications, they are still more desirable and competitive, so no @Teacher Tan is wrong, the IS quality doesnt matter and so is @Walter facilities, resources, curriculum, teaching quality, school culture and energy doesnt matter either, and if they did, if they were relevant and material, Japans 1st/elite tier ISs are just as competitive and actually superior in those regards to other 1st/elite tier ISs in Asia and Thailand. Not like you would have the experience to know.

@WT123

You should get over to the BS IS in Tokyo sometime.
wrldtrvlr123
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Re: Bangkok Pollution

Post by wrldtrvlr123 »

PsyGuy wrote:
>
> @WT123
>
> You should get over to the BS IS in Tokyo sometime.
===============
I've been there and talked to teachers who work/have worked there. It's good/nice but not in the same class as the the 4 letter school.
teacher tan
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Re: Bangkok Pollution

Post by teacher tan »

Apart from the 4-letter school in Tokyo, there are none that come close to the top 3 in Bangkok. Even the latter are way above the former. Nobody I know of goes to Tokyo for PD. Never heard of any major workshops or conferences happening there in recent years and that says a lot about how progressive the schools are. They are still stuck in 90s methods.

You definitely don't feel like an alien here in BKK and no coughing in the face nor mid-night tremors/taking cover. If you can afford it, Kyoto is nice for a short holiday, though. I'll give you that.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@WT123

We will have to disagree.

@Teacher Tan

All of the 1st/elite tier ISs in Japan are superior to the 1st/elite tier ISs in Thailand. Nobody I know of goes to Thailand except for the BKK recruitment fairs, otherwise the 'club' PD is throughout Asia, and the times its in Thailand is due to cost and convenience, not anything superior of Thailands ISs.

Japans air is pretty clean, way less traffic and auto exhaust than in BKK. Japan gets an earthquake every day, but the vast majority of them you can easily sleep through.
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