I am American and looking into positions in Singapore and Thailand.
I have asked around on some tax forums and getting 50/50 responses for if I am still required to contribute to American Social Security while working abroad.
I am currently in Japan and contribute to their pension so I am exempt.
My goal is Singapore and would not be paying into their pension system, so to my understanding I must pay 15%~ when filing my taxes. Although asking others online it seems many somehow get around this somehow.
I am now expanding my search to Thailand as well and looking for info about SS payments if I take a position there.
Having to make those 15%~ payments really takes a bit out of an offer...
Any Americans living in these countries who can share their experience is greatly appreciated!
Please feel free to use this post to ask similar questions about other countries as well.
TIA
American Social Security contributions in SG/Thai?
-
falloutmike
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:06 am
-
wrldtrvlr123
- Posts: 1173
- Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
- Location: Japan
Re: American Social Security contributions in SG/Thai?
I've not worked in either of those countries but my understanding is that in general you are not required to pay into SS while living/working overseas unless you are self-employed or working for an American company (or some other related circumstances). The IRS page is pretty straightforward on the subject, unless I am missing something"
https://www.irs.gov/individuals/interna ... n-employer
We've worked overseas in 4 different countries for int'l schools (all foreign owned), filed our taxes every year and never had to deal with SS taxes. But, like I said, not in either of the countries you mentioned, so I would also be interested in what people with experience there have to say.
https://www.irs.gov/individuals/interna ... n-employer
We've worked overseas in 4 different countries for int'l schools (all foreign owned), filed our taxes every year and never had to deal with SS taxes. But, like I said, not in either of the countries you mentioned, so I would also be interested in what people with experience there have to say.
-
falloutmike
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:06 am
Re: American Social Security contributions in SG/Thai?
Yea it seems to be based off if you contribute to your local pension program or if they have a SS agreement. https://www.ssa.gov/international/agree ... rview.html
I've been checking for weeks and almost always find that I have to pay if working in SG but then a lot of people don't pay. I am hoping to get some more concrete answers, as that 15% is a huge make or break!
Also greetings from Japan as well!
I've been checking for weeks and almost always find that I have to pay if working in SG but then a lot of people don't pay. I am hoping to get some more concrete answers, as that 15% is a huge make or break!
Also greetings from Japan as well!
Re: American Social Security contributions in SG/Thai?
Hi-
I was in Singapore for 25 years and never paid into SS. No american teachers that I know in Singapore have either. We hadno pension program at the school, and so the teachers usually need to create their own.
The only schools I taught in where you contributed to social security were schools in Jordan and Egypt.
Rob
I was in Singapore for 25 years and never paid into SS. No american teachers that I know in Singapore have either. We hadno pension program at the school, and so the teachers usually need to create their own.
The only schools I taught in where you contributed to social security were schools in Jordan and Egypt.
Rob
-
wrldtrvlr123
- Posts: 1173
- Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
- Location: Japan
Re: American Social Security contributions in SG/Thai?
falloutmike wrote:
> Yea it seems to be based off if you contribute to your local pension program or if
> they have a SS agreement. https://www.ssa.gov/international/agree ... rview.html
>
> I've been checking for weeks and almost always find that I have to pay if working
> in SG but then a lot of people don't pay. I am hoping to get some more concrete
> answers, as that 15% is a huge make or break!
>
> Also greetings from Japan as well!
================
Yes, we love Japan and have no plans of leaving anytime soon.
I read through most of that and I really don't see anything that applies to "us" being required to pay SS unless your company/school is a US entity of some sort or you are self-employed.
We also worked in Egypt and never dealt with SS. We do pay into SS now because we are with DoDEA and pay all US taxes (but are not subject to any Japanese/local taxes).
> Yea it seems to be based off if you contribute to your local pension program or if
> they have a SS agreement. https://www.ssa.gov/international/agree ... rview.html
>
> I've been checking for weeks and almost always find that I have to pay if working
> in SG but then a lot of people don't pay. I am hoping to get some more concrete
> answers, as that 15% is a huge make or break!
>
> Also greetings from Japan as well!
================
Yes, we love Japan and have no plans of leaving anytime soon.
I read through most of that and I really don't see anything that applies to "us" being required to pay SS unless your company/school is a US entity of some sort or you are self-employed.
We also worked in Egypt and never dealt with SS. We do pay into SS now because we are with DoDEA and pay all US taxes (but are not subject to any Japanese/local taxes).
-
falloutmike
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:06 am
Re: American Social Security contributions in SG/Thai?
Rob wrote:
> Hi-
> I was in Singapore for 25 years and never paid into SS. No american
> teachers that I know in Singapore have either. We hadno pension program at
> the school, and so the teachers usually need to create their own.
>
> The only schools I taught in where you contributed to social security were
> schools in Jordan and Egypt.
>
> Rob
Do you know if a CPF relief fund is commonly added to SG salaries?
> Hi-
> I was in Singapore for 25 years and never paid into SS. No american
> teachers that I know in Singapore have either. We hadno pension program at
> the school, and so the teachers usually need to create their own.
>
> The only schools I taught in where you contributed to social security were
> schools in Jordan and Egypt.
>
> Rob
Do you know if a CPF relief fund is commonly added to SG salaries?
Response
You are not required to contribute to SS while working in IE, unless your IS is a US company. Typically the way that works is the IS has a charity or organization incorporated in the US, and you are an employee of that charity or organization (typically a non-profit), in which case the IS is required as all US organizations and companies to make payroll deductions and contributions for SS.
You can choose to classify yourself as self employed and you can choose to make the 15% self employed contributions (if you want to accrue work credits for SS). If you do this you can choose what salary to report and how much the 15% is.
Higher tier ISs will provide some form of retirement scheme and some may provide access to a CPF benefit. Its not relevant though to your main inquiry, you dont have to pay SS whether you have a CPF benefit or not.
You can choose to classify yourself as self employed and you can choose to make the 15% self employed contributions (if you want to accrue work credits for SS). If you do this you can choose what salary to report and how much the 15% is.
Higher tier ISs will provide some form of retirement scheme and some may provide access to a CPF benefit. Its not relevant though to your main inquiry, you dont have to pay SS whether you have a CPF benefit or not.
-
falloutmike
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:06 am
Re: Response
PsyGuy wrote:
> You are not required to contribute to SS while working in IE, unless your
> IS is a US company. Typically the way that works is the IS has a charity or
> organization incorporated in the US, and you are an employee of that
> charity or organization (typically a non-profit), in which case the IS is
> required as all US organizations and companies to make payroll deductions
> and contributions for SS.
> You can choose to classify yourself as self employed and you can choose to
> make the 15% self employed contributions (if you want to accrue work
> credits for SS). If you do this you can choose what salary to report and
> how much the 15% is.
>
> Higher tier ISs will provide some form of retirement scheme and some may
> provide access to a CPF benefit. Its not relevant though to your main
> inquiry, you dont have to pay SS whether you have a CPF benefit or not.
So if I choose to take a break from SS payments how would I classify (not self employed) my returns.
Hope that isn't to broad of a question. My uncle helps me with my taxes and informed me I must pay... any insight would be super appreciated.
> You are not required to contribute to SS while working in IE, unless your
> IS is a US company. Typically the way that works is the IS has a charity or
> organization incorporated in the US, and you are an employee of that
> charity or organization (typically a non-profit), in which case the IS is
> required as all US organizations and companies to make payroll deductions
> and contributions for SS.
> You can choose to classify yourself as self employed and you can choose to
> make the 15% self employed contributions (if you want to accrue work
> credits for SS). If you do this you can choose what salary to report and
> how much the 15% is.
>
> Higher tier ISs will provide some form of retirement scheme and some may
> provide access to a CPF benefit. Its not relevant though to your main
> inquiry, you dont have to pay SS whether you have a CPF benefit or not.
So if I choose to take a break from SS payments how would I classify (not self employed) my returns.
Hope that isn't to broad of a question. My uncle helps me with my taxes and informed me I must pay... any insight would be super appreciated.
Reply
@Falloutmike
You report it just as you did when working in DE when resident in the US, except that its foreign earned income, which is income you receive for services you perform in a foreign country during a period your tax home is in a foreign country and during which you meet either the bona fide residence test or the physical presence test. It is considered "earned income" in the form of salary or wages. You then claim the foreign income deduction, exclusion or credit as applicable under deductions.
You can find an authoritative citation for your reference in IRS publication 54 "Tax Guide for U.S. Citizens and Resident Aliens Abroad), page 10, "Social Security and Medicare Taxes", "General Information":
--In general, U.S. social security and Medicare taxes do not apply to wages for services you perform as an employee outside the United States unless one of the following exceptions applies.--
If you want to classify that income as Self Employment income and thus use it to make SS contributions (or if you want to use it for an IRA, etc.) you can find the authoritative citation in IRS publication 54 "Tax Guide for U.S. Citizens and Resident Aliens Abroad), page 11, "Self-Employment Tax", "Who Must Pay
Self-Employment Tax?":
--If you are a self-employed U.S. citizen or resident, the rules for paying self-employment tax are generally the same whether you are living in the United States or abroad.--
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p54.pdf
You report it just as you did when working in DE when resident in the US, except that its foreign earned income, which is income you receive for services you perform in a foreign country during a period your tax home is in a foreign country and during which you meet either the bona fide residence test or the physical presence test. It is considered "earned income" in the form of salary or wages. You then claim the foreign income deduction, exclusion or credit as applicable under deductions.
You can find an authoritative citation for your reference in IRS publication 54 "Tax Guide for U.S. Citizens and Resident Aliens Abroad), page 10, "Social Security and Medicare Taxes", "General Information":
--In general, U.S. social security and Medicare taxes do not apply to wages for services you perform as an employee outside the United States unless one of the following exceptions applies.--
If you want to classify that income as Self Employment income and thus use it to make SS contributions (or if you want to use it for an IRA, etc.) you can find the authoritative citation in IRS publication 54 "Tax Guide for U.S. Citizens and Resident Aliens Abroad), page 11, "Self-Employment Tax", "Who Must Pay
Self-Employment Tax?":
--If you are a self-employed U.S. citizen or resident, the rules for paying self-employment tax are generally the same whether you are living in the United States or abroad.--
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p54.pdf
-
Psychometrika
- Posts: 74
- Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:08 pm
Re: American Social Security contributions in SG/Thai?
While you can pay into social security by claiming self employed income, since you have to pay both employer and employee amount it generally is a pretty terrible investment. Just about the only reason I see to do it is if you are a few quarters short of the 40 you need to qualify, and even then I would only put in the bare minimum.
Re: American Social Security contributions in SG/Thai?
falloutmike wrote:
> Rob wrote:
> > Hi-
> > I was in Singapore for 25 years and never paid into SS. No american
> > teachers that I know in Singapore have either. We hadno pension program at
> > the school, and so the teachers usually need to create their own.
> >
> > The only schools I taught in where you contributed to social security were
> > schools in Jordan and Egypt.
> >
> > Rob
>
>
> Do you know if a CPF relief fund is commonly added to SG salaries?
There are a number of international schools in Singapore. After I retired from one of them after quite a few year, I subbed at 4 or 5 others for a couple years after that. They all have different policies concerning the CPF relief you referred to. Once or twice a year you got a bonus in December, but that might have changed in the few years since I left. Also, the relief you get is housing in really nice condos or townhouses, which anyone contributing to CPF can't get.
Back in the 80's and 90's, everyone contributed to CPF, even if you were on a employment pass. Since I was a PR, which means very little in Singapore regarding "rights", it did force the schools to continue to pay into CPF which was very nice.
Rob
> Rob wrote:
> > Hi-
> > I was in Singapore for 25 years and never paid into SS. No american
> > teachers that I know in Singapore have either. We hadno pension program at
> > the school, and so the teachers usually need to create their own.
> >
> > The only schools I taught in where you contributed to social security were
> > schools in Jordan and Egypt.
> >
> > Rob
>
>
> Do you know if a CPF relief fund is commonly added to SG salaries?
There are a number of international schools in Singapore. After I retired from one of them after quite a few year, I subbed at 4 or 5 others for a couple years after that. They all have different policies concerning the CPF relief you referred to. Once or twice a year you got a bonus in December, but that might have changed in the few years since I left. Also, the relief you get is housing in really nice condos or townhouses, which anyone contributing to CPF can't get.
Back in the 80's and 90's, everyone contributed to CPF, even if you were on a employment pass. Since I was a PR, which means very little in Singapore regarding "rights", it did force the schools to continue to pay into CPF which was very nice.
Rob
-
buffalofan
- Posts: 350
- Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:08 pm
Re: American Social Security contributions in SG/Thai?
Doesn't reporting your income as self employment open up other potential tax implications, such as filing and paying estimated quarterly tax? That was the case when I looked into it years back anyway. That, combined with the requirement to pay the full 15% makes the whole thing a non-starter in my opinion.
You are not required to pay in to SS. However, if you search the forum you will find a thread with a list of international schools that pay in (7.5%) to US SS for you as they have some sort of US presence. The schools on the list were pretty random and in some obscure locations. If you are like me and more than halfway to 40 credits, it is worth considering this route, as you would probably only have to do a 2-3 year stint to hit 40.
You are not required to pay in to SS. However, if you search the forum you will find a thread with a list of international schools that pay in (7.5%) to US SS for you as they have some sort of US presence. The schools on the list were pretty random and in some obscure locations. If you are like me and more than halfway to 40 credits, it is worth considering this route, as you would probably only have to do a 2-3 year stint to hit 40.
Reply
@buffalofan
Yes, but its your company/business, you can estimate for a particular quarter that you will make zero income and thus have zero estimated tax. You no longer (for some time now) have to earn credits spread out over the year, you need income of USD$5280/yr to earn the maximum 4 credits a year, and you can earn that USD$5280 all in one quarter, which is fairly common for an IT/DT with a 10 month work year with summer as the side "consulting" business. That comes to a tax 'buy' (at 15%) of USD$792/yr to get the maximum four credits. Thats not a huge amount, its USD$66/mth. The difference (the 7.5%) between the portion you pay and the portion an IS would pay (assuming the minimum) is USD$396/yr or USD$33/mth, thats almost a trivial amount.
Yes, but its your company/business, you can estimate for a particular quarter that you will make zero income and thus have zero estimated tax. You no longer (for some time now) have to earn credits spread out over the year, you need income of USD$5280/yr to earn the maximum 4 credits a year, and you can earn that USD$5280 all in one quarter, which is fairly common for an IT/DT with a 10 month work year with summer as the side "consulting" business. That comes to a tax 'buy' (at 15%) of USD$792/yr to get the maximum four credits. Thats not a huge amount, its USD$66/mth. The difference (the 7.5%) between the portion you pay and the portion an IS would pay (assuming the minimum) is USD$396/yr or USD$33/mth, thats almost a trivial amount.