ISS, Search or both? Bangkok 2020

PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

First, ISS has 72 ISs, of which 7 of them are top tier, SA has 147, of which 15 are top tier. @Heliotrope and I have disagreed in the past on what is a top tier IS. This results in a hit probability of 9.7% for ISS BKK fair, and 10.2% for SA BKK fair, which appears that that SA has the better probability by about .5%, but SA has many more ITs competing for those slots with those ISs by about roughly twice as many candidates. ISS is still better by the math.

You mean you used YOUR list that YOU posted to the Member site, and which some other contributors offered some input. Its not "THE" Master tier 1 list its just your list, we disagree.

If having to choose SA is the better choice, you have to assume, since you cant predict, that you will 'hit' (be successful) with each attempt.

@Illiane_Blues

Its not "THE" tier 1 Master list, its @Heliotrope submission of the tier 1 Master list that got some input from other contributors. There is no master tier 1 list, and as such there is no publication date of any such list.

Premium agencies usually post the IS attendance list when they announce registration is open and add to it on a regular schedule as ISs register. It doesnt mean a whole lot inevitably a number (and not insignificant number in regards to tier 1 ISs) complete recruiting during first night, and their vacancies close entirely, this information is typically announced the morning of signup.
Heliotrope
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Re: Reply

Post by Heliotrope »

Have a look, and count:
https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/4289467/ ... ending.pdf
ISS fair has 122 school attending.
But I wouldn't be too sad if I were you that the number is 122 and not 72, as more schools attending is better.
That it affects the percentage of tier 1 schools negatively shouldn't be important, as it's the actual number of tier 1 schools attending that should matter. More schools just means other candidates are more likely to be lured away by other schools at the fair, giving you a better chance at your top choices. If I was to attend either fair, I would hope for there to be both a very large number of tier 1 schools, and a large number of schools that are not tier 1. Some candidates will only apply at tier 1, but others will also try their luck at the other schools. So the more schools, the better your chances.

The tier 1 list posted on the member forum was based on schools mentioned multiple times by different people as being tier 1 schools on that forum and elsewhere in the past.
I put the list there to get feedback, since I was pretty sure there were some unintentional omissions, as well as some schools on there that might not belong.
Sounds like a pretty healthy thing to do in my opinion, as I'd rather use the wisdom of the crowd than make a list based on just my opinions (which it wasn't to begin with), as it will be more accurate with all the input from the community.
Given the many views and the many comments on that post, and the nature of those replies, the consensus on which schools definitely belong on a solid tier 1 list is pretty clear, it being the list as it was originally posted with some additions and some removals. That there are that many changes to the original list is probably because it was based on what people have mentioned on the forum as tier 1 schools to begin with.
It's that amended list, based on other people's posts and then amended by the community, that I used to count tier 1 schools at both fairs, and that puts the total of tier 1 schools at the Search fair at 23-24 (one school is still debatable).
If you have your own personal list of what you consider to be tier 1 schools, that's fine of course for when you have to decide for yourself which fair(s) to attend.
Heliotrope
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Re: Reply

Post by Heliotrope »

PsyGuy wrote:
> @Illiane_Blues
>
> There is no master tier 1 list, and as such there is no publication date of any
> such list.

I'm pretty sure she means the publication dates of the lists of attending schools for both fairs.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

I did, its 72, Im not sad its 72, because its 72 ISs attending the ISS BKK fair. More ISs attending isnt always better under all conditions and factors.

Yes its the percentage and probability that matters, more ISs doesnt mean increased marketability and utility thus resulting in more interview slots for an IT. It doesnt matter how many slots there are if the IT doesnt get any of them. ts not a random (lottery style) hit rate.

YOUR tier 1 list was based on your observations that some contributor claims that X IS is tier 1. Crowds arent very wise. They tend to be loud, but not wise. Ive done this as well, in the past back on the public side of this forum back when we could name and shame and trash ISs in the open. What happens is we get some fairly strong consensus on the center data points but we lose coherence in the margins and the borders.
Theres not a lot of views and replies, its some contributors saying i liked this IS thus its tier 1, a lot of your list is a very large tier 1 that includes a lot of tier 2 ISs and some tier 3 ISs.

Yes I have a Master Tier 1 List of ISs, its been shared with the contributors, membership and readership, and its no more authoritative than your list. Which puts the 1st tier ISs at SA BKK at 15 and ISS BKK at 7.
Heliotrope
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Re: Reply

Post by Heliotrope »

Are you saying the link is not showing the real list of attending schools? It's linked to on the ISS website, on the page about their Bangkok fair.
I counted 38 schools on page 1, 38 schools on page 2, 37 schools on page 3, and 9 schools on page 4.
That adds up to 122.

Why would 122 instead of 72 be a bad thing?

If fewer students would ask for an interview, it would increase the chances of the individual candidate, as with more candidates the slots would fill quicker. They still wouldn't grant a bad candidate an interview, but the likelihood of an interview by a qualified candidate would increase.

Crowds aren't always wise but sometimes are (hence why the lifeline 'Ask the audience' on the show 'Who wants to be a poor' almost always results in the right answer), and if a school gets multiple mentions by different people in unrelated threads, it is a hint that that school might worthy of a spot on the list. Once that list is complete, people can take a crack at it, weeding out the flukes or schools that were great but are no longer. That's an ongoing process. But people have different approaches and criteria to these lists: some only use salary as an indicator, others value academics more, or omit any school in a hardship location.

Can you give me a way of finding your list, as I'm genuinely interested to see it?
I tried the search function, but to no avail.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

No I see 72.

Would you want to go to a fair/RE with 122 train wreck bottom 3rd tier ISs? If you wont except the position because the IS doesnt meet your requirements how is it valuable. If Fair X has 61 ISs and Fair Y has 122 ISs, but an IT wont interview at 61 of the 122 ISs at Fair Y, than there are 61 ISs at fair Y the same as at fair X (assuming the IT would interview with all 61 ISs at Fair X).

No it doesnt, your assuming a recruiter/leadership will fill their interview schedule, for the sake of filling a slot. They wont give a bad candidate a slot just to fill their schedule, but they wont pass on a seemingly perfect candidate either, if your 20 seconds impresses them, they will work something out.

Lifelines on game shows mean nothing. Broken clocks are also sometimes right (twice a day).

Might be indicative isnt indicative, When I go home there "might" be a million £ in my bath tub, there also "might NOT" be a million £ in my bathtub, thats two possibilities, on what planet and what demented reality is the probability of there being a million £ in my bathtub 50%. Your ability to put words together means absolutely nothing in regards to the validity of your claims or statements. Consensus is not correlation.
Heliotrope
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Re: Reply

Post by Heliotrope »

Explain why you don't count some on the ISS PDF-list. Anyone who can count and follows the link will see a list of 122 there.
Are some schools on the list of 122 not proper schools in your opinion, and should therefore not be counted?

The '122 is better than 72' includes the 72 schools that you already counted. It's not replacing good schools with bad schools, it would be just adding more schools to an existing list. If increasing the number of schools impacted the quality of schools you already have, then obviously it wouldn't be a good thing.

Some popular schools have fewer slots than they have interested and very suitable candidates, so they have to say no to some, even if they would like them enough for an interview if they had slots left. They can't always work something out, especially the top schools have limited time because loads of great candidates are interested.

Your - of a broken clock being right twice a day is wrong, as with the lifeline the audience is right 91% of the time:
"The experts do pretty well - they get the answer right about two-thirds of the time," Surowiecki, the author of "The Wisdom of Crowds," told CBS News, "but the audience gets the answer right 91 percent of the time."
Heliotrope
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Re: ISS, Search or both? Bangkok 2020

Post by Heliotrope »

And can you give me a way of finding your list, as I'm genuinely interested to see it?
I tried the search function, but to no avail.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

Well I am a certified maths IT and Im pretty sure that certifies me to count.

You made a generic generalized claim that "more schools attending is better", this isnt always true, and its not even true in this scenario. More lower tier ISs isnt better its just bigger, its a very 'American' concept that bigger, more, is better, a erroneous concept that quantity is compensatory for quality.

No they dont, they dont have to to say no, they want to say no. If your a perfect candidate and approach an IS they will work something out, it may not be an 'interview slot', but there are still plenty of options, from after hours meetings, a delayed flight, lunch (dinner), a beverage in the pub, to a virtual online interview. The end of a fair/RE isnt a deadline, its not Christmas, theres always tomorrow. ITs get offers in the elevator, in the airport, etc. ISs spend X time at a fair interviewing and then offer the appointment to someone who isnt even a premium agency member after an online interview. Happens all the time. One of the major contributors strongly supported positions is that just as much recruiting happens as a result of fair attendance that isnt actually at the fair.

No its not, its absolutely right. Experts can get 100% right, get better experts (for that matter get a better audience). Your source has a bias, and I find your argument lacking in merit and unpersuasive.
Heliotrope
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Re: Reply

Post by Heliotrope »

I'm also a certified Maths teacher (I guess Maths teachers are the stubborn kind), so I'll leave it up other members to count themselves. As long they count actual schools, I like my odds. Of course I know you are counting organisations that have listed more than one school as one, but they represent multiple schools, sometimes a mix of pretty good and very bad schools, and a candidate could end up at any one of those schools.

If you have a good list of schools at your fair, and then add some more schools, how would that be a bad thing? There could be some interesting tier 2 schools amongst the additions, that would be of interest to some of the other candidates, spreading them a bit more thinly.

Are you saying the top schools have time to interview all candidates that they would suitable enough to interview if they had all the time in the world and no other interested candidates?
It makes sense that they would only interview the (on paper) dream candidates (or those that are great at elevator pitches), and not bother with candidates that are suitable enough (that might do extremely well in a proper interview) but not dream candidates at first glance. If they don't, some schools would have to interview 200 candidates or more.

Mass intelligence is a phenomenon that's been explored for years by scientists. Look up some research before you dismiss it.

Damn, I need to spend less time with PsyGuy and more time with family, especially around the holidays.
As mentioned in another topic, we're past the point where we're helping the OP (who got her answer on page 1), and as much fun as it is to disagree with PsyGuy, I'll leave it at this, as stamina shouldn't be a debating tactic. Experience tell us he will almost surely reply, but I will not anymore.
Happy Holidays once more to you all!
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

Those chain ISs dont send multiple recruiters/leadership to rep each IS to ISS, its one pool of interview slots.

There isnt a mix of high and low tier ISs among chain ISs.

Sure there could be, there also could not be, nothing could also happen, I dont have a crystal ball.

Again, youre equivocating "suitable" with 'ideal'. They do have all the time in the world, the limits your inferring to are arbitrary.

Some ISs interview 200 candidates or more, its why recruiting firms get business.

Phrenology was a phenomenon explored by scientists for years as well. I did consider the research, and then i dismissed it as Pop.Sci for millennials.

Happy Holidays
y=[1n(r/m-sa)]/r^2
Illiane_Blues

Re: ISS, Search or both? Bangkok 2020

Post by Illiane_Blues »

Sorry but need to step in here before Heliotrope reads this and responds despite saying he wouldn't
I'm part-time math myself so inclined to agree with statement about stubbornness cause I'm part-time stubborn

> Those chain ISs dont send multiple recruiters/leadership to rep each IS to
> ISS, its one pool of interview slots.
I thought you said they have all the time in the world, and can always find time?
Then how is one pool of slots a problem when a particular chain interview for 30+ schools?
Every schools they represent is a real school and therefore counts

> There isnt a mix of high and low tier ISs among chain ISs.
There's a chain starting with a letter that has a high Scrabble letter-value that def has schools that differ a lot, def a tier difference between the best and the worst, mid tier 3 and mid tier 2.
not sure how that matters tho

> Some ISs interview 200 candidates or more, its why recruiting firms get
> business.
Not at the fair they don't. Also there are schools at Search fair where almost every candidate will want to work and 200 would be conservative estimate imo

> Phrenology was a phenomenon explored by scientists for years as well. I did
> consider the research, and then i dismissed it as Pop.Sci for millennials.
For years yes but loooong time ago, was regarded as pseudoscience in the 19th century already. Scientific research has come a long since then, and this isn't too complex and not too complicated to prove/disprove. pretty sure you're less well equipped to discard the research than academic peers in the field and I couldn't find any scientific research disproving it. If you can find some, please supply a link

Hope neither of you will reply and we can all get on with our holidays
Heliotrope
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Re: ISS, Search or both? Bangkok 2020

Post by Heliotrope »

Ok, I won't reply.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Illiane_Blues

Part time stubborn is full time indecisive.

They do have all the time in the world, but not all the coin. This is one of those times were the exchange of time and coin ("time equals money") is not a 1:1 ratio of exchange.

Its not a real IS and thus counts, this is a formatting issue, one premium agency elected to parse out each chain school individually 1 per line and another premium agency collapsed them and grouped the chain into one line "worldwide" item of 37 ISs. Both fairs/REs will have one recruiter recruiting for all of them.

I dont play scrabble, but I assume we know what chain IS is being talked about. They dont differ a lot, and all of them are third tier.

Yes during the fair they do, recruiters interview candidates virtually at the fair all the time, real recruiters and ITs are separated by a hallway and they still will be up late at night interviewing candidates virtually (Skype, FaceTime, Hangouts, Wechat, Whatsapp, etc). Signup happens, then everything changes, ITs that had scheduled interviews cancel them or no show because among other things they signed with another IS already, a recruiter/leadership has their presentation and is impressed by a couple presentation attendees, that were batted away during signup and they want to interview those candidates. A candidate and a recruiter make a deal int he elevator, another IT missed signup, another candidate only came for first night, and signed, thus canceling the other first night or invite interviews. Another recruiter gets snuggly with a young pretty candidate overnight and get a counselor appointment. A first tier IS came recruiting for one primary vacancy and filled it before signup.

Who cares if everyone wants to work there, if the vacancy at "OMG everyone wants to work in that region IS" is a maths vacancy not everyone of the 200 is a maths IT. Even if its a vacancy with a lot of saturation, like primary not everyone is a primary IT, or if they are they dont want to teach primary (there are maths ITs who have a primary credential, only because they are primary maths specialists, they are not HRTs and have zero interest in babysitting the same group of toddlers all day).

Every junk.sci was at one time pop.sci. Crowd sourcing will be in the same group of junk.sci as the "I cant believe we gave kids iPads as a learning tool".

Only data matters, not holidays.
Illiane_Blues

Re: Reply

Post by Illiane_Blues »

Haha, grasping at straws I see. Good, you're making my points for me by doing so.
Let's let others members decide for themselves.
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