I hear a lot of people talk about quality of life. They compare Asia with Europe, in particular. People say that they want to choose Europe over Asia, even though the pay is often less, because they are prioritising quality of life.
I imagine quality of life in many European countries is better than that of many Asian countries... but can someone explain to me how quality of life in major European cities would be better than that of Hong Kong, Shanghai, Singapore, Seoul, or several other major Asian cities where there is great infrastructure? I know there are specific differences, but I'm curious as to what makes the quality of life better in Europe than these places for some people.
Thanks!
Quality of Life - Explain?
Re: Quality of Life - Explain?
It’s horses for courses. Hustle and bustle or cafe culture? Heat or snow. Mountains or beaches. Universal health care and a great social contract, or insurance and individuality? What floats one boat...
Response
Well I really dont want to write a book, but okay, sure. First, its not strictly "quality of life" its quality of 'lifestyle". From the position of lifestyle, the EU is much more conducive to a relaxed lifestyle, surrounded by history, and architecture and culture. Where you relax at a corner cafe, over looking the corso. In Asia, everyone is living to work, and that creates a lot of energy. That relaxed Euro lifestyle is a lot more appealing as ITs get older, where the energy of places like HK, etc, are more appealing to younger ITs who want that city that never sleeps lifestyle.
Second, theres a logistical issue of language, in the WE, natives study and learn English reasonably well, even if they choose not to use it. Which is much less common in Asia, where you see a much higher language barrier, this can get frustrating where relatively simple tasks need to be planed activities, because you only have access when the institution provides an English speaker. I dont need a whole lot of Japanese linguistic ability to buy an iced coffee at a conbini store, I pick the one I want (the price in yen in labeled in the cooler) I go to the register, I place my SUICA card on the IC reader and we exchange arrigatos, but I would never try to accomplish something even remotely important at the ward office at any counter that wasnt the foreign services counter, and someone was speaking English. In Germany Id have a lot fewer problems, just about anyone at the government building has passable enough English, for example.
Third, the WE is much less foreign, ever see a first time IT to China use an Asian toilet (the squat toilets), I bet coin they lose their wallet, phone or end up with wet slacks. You just find things more familiar in the WE.
Fourth, the WE has been so hyper romanticized by the media, that ITs actually project those characteristics on the environment. Its not entirely unique to the WE, there are a lot of disillusioned expats to Japan every year that learn that JP life isnt like an anime or manga.
Infrastructure I would actually give to Asia, trying to get a repair person especially from the city to your flat/apartment somewhere like Italy can take weeks. In Asia things tend to work, and work well, and when they dont they are lightning fast by western standards to fix them. Your water heater goes out in the WE and it can take days to replace or repair, a week or more if they need to order a part. In Asia, somewhere like SG, or HK, of JP, I call or text the property manager, and a repair person may be there before I leave for the day minutes later, and it will be fixed before I even get home that afternoon, and was probably repaired before lunch, and if it asnt they would be so embarrassed, they would offer either the bathroom in a vacant unit, or a pass for an athletic center nearby, or accommodate a shower in their own home and probably set out tea and light snacks, and likely dinner, and Id hear nothing but apologies the whole time, they would be truly embarrassed. Getting my DSL connected in Italy took a couple months.
Second, theres a logistical issue of language, in the WE, natives study and learn English reasonably well, even if they choose not to use it. Which is much less common in Asia, where you see a much higher language barrier, this can get frustrating where relatively simple tasks need to be planed activities, because you only have access when the institution provides an English speaker. I dont need a whole lot of Japanese linguistic ability to buy an iced coffee at a conbini store, I pick the one I want (the price in yen in labeled in the cooler) I go to the register, I place my SUICA card on the IC reader and we exchange arrigatos, but I would never try to accomplish something even remotely important at the ward office at any counter that wasnt the foreign services counter, and someone was speaking English. In Germany Id have a lot fewer problems, just about anyone at the government building has passable enough English, for example.
Third, the WE is much less foreign, ever see a first time IT to China use an Asian toilet (the squat toilets), I bet coin they lose their wallet, phone or end up with wet slacks. You just find things more familiar in the WE.
Fourth, the WE has been so hyper romanticized by the media, that ITs actually project those characteristics on the environment. Its not entirely unique to the WE, there are a lot of disillusioned expats to Japan every year that learn that JP life isnt like an anime or manga.
Infrastructure I would actually give to Asia, trying to get a repair person especially from the city to your flat/apartment somewhere like Italy can take weeks. In Asia things tend to work, and work well, and when they dont they are lightning fast by western standards to fix them. Your water heater goes out in the WE and it can take days to replace or repair, a week or more if they need to order a part. In Asia, somewhere like SG, or HK, of JP, I call or text the property manager, and a repair person may be there before I leave for the day minutes later, and it will be fixed before I even get home that afternoon, and was probably repaired before lunch, and if it asnt they would be so embarrassed, they would offer either the bathroom in a vacant unit, or a pass for an athletic center nearby, or accommodate a shower in their own home and probably set out tea and light snacks, and likely dinner, and Id hear nothing but apologies the whole time, they would be truly embarrassed. Getting my DSL connected in Italy took a couple months.
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StereoTyped
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:51 pm
Re: Response
PsyGuy wrote:
> Well I really dont want to write a book, but okay, sure. First, its not
> strictly "quality of life" its quality of 'lifestyle". From
> the position of lifestyle, the EU is much more conducive to a relaxed
> lifestyle, surrounded by history, and architecture and culture. Where you
> relax at a corner cafe, over looking the corso. In Asia, everyone is
> living to work, and that creates a lot of energy. That relaxed Euro
> lifestyle is a lot more appealing as ITs get older, where the energy of
> places like HK, etc, are more appealing to younger ITs who want that city
> that never sleeps lifestyle.
> Second, theres a logistical issue of language, in the WE, natives study and
> learn English reasonably well, even if they choose not to use it. Which is
> much less common in Asia, where you see a much higher language barrier,
> this can get frustrating where relatively simple tasks need to be planed
> activities, because you only have access when the institution provides an
> English speaker. I dont need a whole lot of Japanese linguistic ability to
> buy an iced coffee at a conbini store, I pick the one I want (the price in
> yen in labeled in the cooler) I go to the register, I place my SUICA card
> on the IC reader and we exchange arrigatos, but I would never try to
> accomplish something even remotely important at the ward office at any
> counter that wasnt the foreign services counter, and someone was speaking
> English. In Germany Id have a lot fewer problems, just about anyone at the
> government building has passable enough English, for example.
> Third, the WE is much less foreign, ever see a first time IT to China use
> an Asian toilet (the squat toilets), I bet coin they lose their wallet,
> phone or end up with wet slacks. You just find things more familiar in the
> WE.
> Fourth, the WE has been so hyper romanticized by the media, that ITs
> actually project those characteristics on the environment. Its not entirely
> unique to the WE, there are a lot of disillusioned expats to Japan every
> year that learn that JP life isnt like an anime or manga.
>
> Infrastructure I would actually give to Asia, trying to get a repair person
> especially from the city to your flat/apartment somewhere like Italy can
> take weeks. In Asia things tend to work, and work well, and when they dont
> they are lightning fast by western standards to fix them. Your water heater
> goes out in the WE and it can take days to replace or repair, a week or
> more if they need to order a part. In Asia, somewhere like SG, or HK, of
> JP, I call or text the property manager, and a repair person may be there
> before I leave for the day minutes later, and it will be fixed before I
> even get home that afternoon, and was probably repaired before lunch, and
> if it asnt they would be so embarrassed, they would offer either the
> bathroom in a vacant unit, or a pass for an athletic center nearby, or
> accommodate a shower in their own home and probably set out tea and light
> snacks, and likely dinner, and Id hear nothing but apologies the whole
> time, they would be truly embarrassed. Getting my DSL connected in Italy
> took a couple months.
Thank-you, this helps me understand a little better the types of things people are talking about, as I feel I've had an amazing 'quality of life' in Asia!
> Well I really dont want to write a book, but okay, sure. First, its not
> strictly "quality of life" its quality of 'lifestyle". From
> the position of lifestyle, the EU is much more conducive to a relaxed
> lifestyle, surrounded by history, and architecture and culture. Where you
> relax at a corner cafe, over looking the corso. In Asia, everyone is
> living to work, and that creates a lot of energy. That relaxed Euro
> lifestyle is a lot more appealing as ITs get older, where the energy of
> places like HK, etc, are more appealing to younger ITs who want that city
> that never sleeps lifestyle.
> Second, theres a logistical issue of language, in the WE, natives study and
> learn English reasonably well, even if they choose not to use it. Which is
> much less common in Asia, where you see a much higher language barrier,
> this can get frustrating where relatively simple tasks need to be planed
> activities, because you only have access when the institution provides an
> English speaker. I dont need a whole lot of Japanese linguistic ability to
> buy an iced coffee at a conbini store, I pick the one I want (the price in
> yen in labeled in the cooler) I go to the register, I place my SUICA card
> on the IC reader and we exchange arrigatos, but I would never try to
> accomplish something even remotely important at the ward office at any
> counter that wasnt the foreign services counter, and someone was speaking
> English. In Germany Id have a lot fewer problems, just about anyone at the
> government building has passable enough English, for example.
> Third, the WE is much less foreign, ever see a first time IT to China use
> an Asian toilet (the squat toilets), I bet coin they lose their wallet,
> phone or end up with wet slacks. You just find things more familiar in the
> WE.
> Fourth, the WE has been so hyper romanticized by the media, that ITs
> actually project those characteristics on the environment. Its not entirely
> unique to the WE, there are a lot of disillusioned expats to Japan every
> year that learn that JP life isnt like an anime or manga.
>
> Infrastructure I would actually give to Asia, trying to get a repair person
> especially from the city to your flat/apartment somewhere like Italy can
> take weeks. In Asia things tend to work, and work well, and when they dont
> they are lightning fast by western standards to fix them. Your water heater
> goes out in the WE and it can take days to replace or repair, a week or
> more if they need to order a part. In Asia, somewhere like SG, or HK, of
> JP, I call or text the property manager, and a repair person may be there
> before I leave for the day minutes later, and it will be fixed before I
> even get home that afternoon, and was probably repaired before lunch, and
> if it asnt they would be so embarrassed, they would offer either the
> bathroom in a vacant unit, or a pass for an athletic center nearby, or
> accommodate a shower in their own home and probably set out tea and light
> snacks, and likely dinner, and Id hear nothing but apologies the whole
> time, they would be truly embarrassed. Getting my DSL connected in Italy
> took a couple months.
Thank-you, this helps me understand a little better the types of things people are talking about, as I feel I've had an amazing 'quality of life' in Asia!
Re: Quality of Life - Explain?
I agree with a lot of what PsyGuy said. We live in China and for the most part our quality of life is great. The things that bother us are:
If something were ever to go wrong, it would be very difficult to deal with. The language barrier, for one, but also because to get anything done in China requires the infamous guanxi (knowing the right people). We do our best to stay out of trouble, but we know of a few cases where foreigners got sucked into a crappy situation and had to deal with the police, who in general don't really like foreigners.
The general chaos. The way people drive and park here drives me crazy even though we don't have a car. There is absolutely no regard for anyone's safety. No one cares about privacy or Western manners (like people hawking up loogies in the street is something I still haven't gotten used to). We have a kid and Chinese people think nothing of pinching cheeks or taking photos without even asking.
The lack of "culture" (exhibitions, events, etc). There's not much to see or do here (I'm sure in bigger cities this would be less of an issue).
The lack of certain kinds of food. Again, in bigger cities expats have a lot more to choose from. One example is cheese. Getting good cheese here that doesn't cost an arm and a leg is impossible. It's silly, but little things like that tend up build up.
The work culture. No one here really cares about work-life balance or understands why it's important. This may depend on your school though.
All these things individually seem tolerable, but if you have to deal with them all the time it can be wearing, especially if you live here for more than a year. And if you have kids, a whole different set of issues crop up.
If something were ever to go wrong, it would be very difficult to deal with. The language barrier, for one, but also because to get anything done in China requires the infamous guanxi (knowing the right people). We do our best to stay out of trouble, but we know of a few cases where foreigners got sucked into a crappy situation and had to deal with the police, who in general don't really like foreigners.
The general chaos. The way people drive and park here drives me crazy even though we don't have a car. There is absolutely no regard for anyone's safety. No one cares about privacy or Western manners (like people hawking up loogies in the street is something I still haven't gotten used to). We have a kid and Chinese people think nothing of pinching cheeks or taking photos without even asking.
The lack of "culture" (exhibitions, events, etc). There's not much to see or do here (I'm sure in bigger cities this would be less of an issue).
The lack of certain kinds of food. Again, in bigger cities expats have a lot more to choose from. One example is cheese. Getting good cheese here that doesn't cost an arm and a leg is impossible. It's silly, but little things like that tend up build up.
The work culture. No one here really cares about work-life balance or understands why it's important. This may depend on your school though.
All these things individually seem tolerable, but if you have to deal with them all the time it can be wearing, especially if you live here for more than a year. And if you have kids, a whole different set of issues crop up.
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Heliotrope
- Posts: 1167
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: Quality of Life - Explain?
For me it's, in order of importance (starting with the most important):
- Affordable cheese and great bread (sure, every big Asian city will have at least one German bakery, but still...)
- Being able to walk around without being noticeably 'different' (extends to my children)
- Better air quality (with the occasional exception)
- Cities in Europe tend to have more personality to them, mostly because of the variety in architecture (I do really like Tokyo though)
- Easier to find the right repairperson/shop/etc., because the language is less unintelligible and written in latin alphabet (I know enough Spanish, German & French to find what I'm looking for), so less dependent on the whole local expat forum support system (but that repairperson will be quite a bit more expensive though)
- More concerts of bands that I like (Bruno Mars and Guns n' Roses will play big Asian cities, but not that many indie bands that I like do Asian tours)
- I like that in (parts of) Europe there isn't a (big) difference in pay between international teachers and the locals, especially in Africa this was sometimes very uncomfortable, and will at times make you distrustful when approached (because sometimes you will be seen as a walking ATM)
Then again, there's also plenty that's better in Asia (affordable restaurants & taxis spring to mind).
For now, I do like being in an environment that's very different from the one I've grown up in, so I'm not in a hurry to move to a Western country.
- Affordable cheese and great bread (sure, every big Asian city will have at least one German bakery, but still...)
- Being able to walk around without being noticeably 'different' (extends to my children)
- Better air quality (with the occasional exception)
- Cities in Europe tend to have more personality to them, mostly because of the variety in architecture (I do really like Tokyo though)
- Easier to find the right repairperson/shop/etc., because the language is less unintelligible and written in latin alphabet (I know enough Spanish, German & French to find what I'm looking for), so less dependent on the whole local expat forum support system (but that repairperson will be quite a bit more expensive though)
- More concerts of bands that I like (Bruno Mars and Guns n' Roses will play big Asian cities, but not that many indie bands that I like do Asian tours)
- I like that in (parts of) Europe there isn't a (big) difference in pay between international teachers and the locals, especially in Africa this was sometimes very uncomfortable, and will at times make you distrustful when approached (because sometimes you will be seen as a walking ATM)
Then again, there's also plenty that's better in Asia (affordable restaurants & taxis spring to mind).
For now, I do like being in an environment that's very different from the one I've grown up in, so I'm not in a hurry to move to a Western country.
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Quality of Life - Explain?
Crowds and air quality are biggies for me. Super urban isn't my style. Population density, availability of urban green space and/or getting out of the city easily, etc. are big considerations. Cities of 20 million are just not my thing. Animals are also a huge consideration (being able to compete my horse, for example, and how dog-friendly public places are). Work/life balance is another biggie. I like being able to sit in a cafe for hours with a friend or my spouse and just watch the world go by. The pace in many Asian cities would not suit me.