We are a teaching couple (ELA and History/Government/Econ) with 4-5 years experience, currently looking to move out of China. This is our first time actually doing a proper job search because we got our current job through previous connections, so it's all a bit overwhelming at this point. We are currently signed up with SA and Schrole.
It seems that IB has become quite popular with many schools - I see on job listings that some schools "strongly prefer" prior IB experience. Our current school is not IB (we only have AP experience). We are wondering if we should be focusing on getting into a "lower tier" IB school that would be willing to take us on based on our non-IB experience.
On the other hand, there seem to be plenty of schools that do not offer IB. So I'm wondering how important it is to get IB experience on our resumes. We have a young daughter and in about five years she'll be starting school - by that stage we hope to be working at a solid international school so we can make sure she gets a good education. We are willing to lower our standards somewhat if it means we can build up our resume.
How important is it to break into an IB school?
Re: How important is it to break into an IB school?
Having IB experience widens your pool of possibilities considerably. Having AP experience more than prepares you for the rigor of the courses, but training and experience are evidence you are skilled at the IB assessments. There are many schools (all tiers) who will hire good people without IB experience and pay for you to go to training, so it's a good route to go if you plan to stay overseas.
Response
At SLA all the common curriculum are highly congruent, if youre a successful AP IT you will be successful at DIP or A*.
IB fills a very large concentration of ISs in the 2nd tier, thus IB experience greatly facilitates an ITs passage though the tiers. Its not uncommon to bridge from third to 1st tier without IB. The issue becomes how long and when. Without IB your likely to spend more time in the third tier and that kind of IS than transitioning up to a higher tier IS. However, a lot of first and elite tier ISs are not IBWSs they are NC ISs, and are highly competitive and selective. You could easily go your whole career and not make it to an elite tier IS is a desirable region. What that means is IB allows you to spend more of your career waiting, more likely, in a 2nd tier IS as opposed to a third tier IS.
If you only have 5 years and your already in the third tier, transitioning to an IB IS while still recruiting for a higher tier IS is highly advisable.
No amount of training is worth any amount of experience is the rule, and there arent any IB practitioners or leaders who believe that a weekend workshop in the IB is going to change or measurably improve you as an edu.
IB fills a very large concentration of ISs in the 2nd tier, thus IB experience greatly facilitates an ITs passage though the tiers. Its not uncommon to bridge from third to 1st tier without IB. The issue becomes how long and when. Without IB your likely to spend more time in the third tier and that kind of IS than transitioning up to a higher tier IS. However, a lot of first and elite tier ISs are not IBWSs they are NC ISs, and are highly competitive and selective. You could easily go your whole career and not make it to an elite tier IS is a desirable region. What that means is IB allows you to spend more of your career waiting, more likely, in a 2nd tier IS as opposed to a third tier IS.
If you only have 5 years and your already in the third tier, transitioning to an IB IS while still recruiting for a higher tier IS is highly advisable.
No amount of training is worth any amount of experience is the rule, and there arent any IB practitioners or leaders who believe that a weekend workshop in the IB is going to change or measurably improve you as an edu.
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Heliotrope
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Re: How important is it to break into an IB school?
There are plenty of Tier 1 or Elite Tier schools (as well as Tier 2 schools) that teach IBDP, so having IB experience would be good.
The IB curriculum is, in my experience, the most challenging and demanding for students - I know quite a few students who were academically not good enough for IB, go through AP more easily.
As PsyGuy says, a good teacher will be able to teach either though.
The IB curriculum is, in my experience, the most challenging and demanding for students - I know quite a few students who were academically not good enough for IB, go through AP more easily.
As PsyGuy says, a good teacher will be able to teach either though.
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I dont concur with @Heliotrope , but I should clarify. The 2nd tier has a very high proportion of ISs whose SLL program (their diploma) is IB (DIP). In 1st tier and Elite ISs they are mainly US/UK NC ISs that may have DIP as an option track in their senior school division.
I would agree that for students IB DIP is more an honors program compared to an NC or even AP or A* levels. Theres more than just exams in a subject to do, and this is a difficulty that students cant overcome.
I would agree that for students IB DIP is more an honors program compared to an NC or even AP or A* levels. Theres more than just exams in a subject to do, and this is a difficulty that students cant overcome.
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Heliotrope
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Re: How important is it to break into an IB school?
From what I see, of the Tier 1 / Elite Tier schools, about 50% is IBDP only, 25% is IB & AP, and 25% is AP (and sometimes US common core.
I'm not allowed to name schools here, but I'm talking about the top schools in Malaysia, Argentina, Luxembourg, Czechia, China, Germany, Switzerland, Bangladesh, The Netherlands, Philippines, France, Singapore, Venezuela, Chile, Japan, Vietnam, Pakistan, South Korea, and a lot more that I can't think of right now.
I'm talking about the schools that are mentioned most as being top tier.
So both curriculums will serve you well, but IB is definitely used (exclusively or in combination with AP) in a lot of the top tier schools. Having taught both will be great on your CV.
I'm not allowed to name schools here, but I'm talking about the top schools in Malaysia, Argentina, Luxembourg, Czechia, China, Germany, Switzerland, Bangladesh, The Netherlands, Philippines, France, Singapore, Venezuela, Chile, Japan, Vietnam, Pakistan, South Korea, and a lot more that I can't think of right now.
I'm talking about the schools that are mentioned most as being top tier.
So both curriculums will serve you well, but IB is definitely used (exclusively or in combination with AP) in a lot of the top tier schools. Having taught both will be great on your CV.
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Heliotrope
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Re: How important is it to break into an IB school?
Perhaps.
I was looking at the schools that everyone always mentions when people ask about Tier 1 schools.
You don't think at least most of the schools below are tier 1 schools?
Argentina: top school is exclusively IBDP
Luxembourg: top school is exclusively IBDP
Czechia: top school is exclusively IBDP
Germany: top 3 schools are all exclusively IBDP
Switzerland: of the top 5, 3 are exclusively IBDP, 2 have both AP & IB
Bangladesh: top school is exclusively IBDP
The Netherlands: top 3 schools all offer IBDP, one also AP in addition to IBDP
Philippines: top 2 schools, 1 is exclusively IBDP, the other offers both AP & IBDP
France: top school is exclusively IBDP
Singapore: of the top 3, 1 is exclusively IBDP, 1 is AP, and 1 is A Levels & IBDP
Venezuela: top 2 schools are exclusively IBDP
China: of the top 3 schools, 1 is IBDP, 1 is AP, 1 offers both
Chile: top school is exclusively IBDP
Japan: top 2 schools, 1 is exclusively IBDP, the other exclusively AP
Vietnam: top 3 schools, 2 are exclusively IBDP, the other offers both AP
Pakistan: top 2 schools, 1 is exclusively IBDP, the other exclusively AP
South Korea: top school is exclusively IBDP
Thailand: top 3 schools, 2 are exclusively IBDP, the other offers both AP & IBDP
You're welcome to disagree with some, but most top schools seem to offer IB, usually exclusively, and sometimes in combination with AP.
I was looking at the schools that everyone always mentions when people ask about Tier 1 schools.
You don't think at least most of the schools below are tier 1 schools?
Argentina: top school is exclusively IBDP
Luxembourg: top school is exclusively IBDP
Czechia: top school is exclusively IBDP
Germany: top 3 schools are all exclusively IBDP
Switzerland: of the top 5, 3 are exclusively IBDP, 2 have both AP & IB
Bangladesh: top school is exclusively IBDP
The Netherlands: top 3 schools all offer IBDP, one also AP in addition to IBDP
Philippines: top 2 schools, 1 is exclusively IBDP, the other offers both AP & IBDP
France: top school is exclusively IBDP
Singapore: of the top 3, 1 is exclusively IBDP, 1 is AP, and 1 is A Levels & IBDP
Venezuela: top 2 schools are exclusively IBDP
China: of the top 3 schools, 1 is IBDP, 1 is AP, 1 offers both
Chile: top school is exclusively IBDP
Japan: top 2 schools, 1 is exclusively IBDP, the other exclusively AP
Vietnam: top 3 schools, 2 are exclusively IBDP, the other offers both AP
Pakistan: top 2 schools, 1 is exclusively IBDP, the other exclusively AP
South Korea: top school is exclusively IBDP
Thailand: top 3 schools, 2 are exclusively IBDP, the other offers both AP & IBDP
You're welcome to disagree with some, but most top schools seem to offer IB, usually exclusively, and sometimes in combination with AP.
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@Heliotrope
We grossly disagree the elite tier ISs in Argentina have IB but at one DIP is just an option and at the other IB is an option in lower secondary combined with IGCSE and uses DIP at SLL.
Czechia: Same DIP is an option at SLL or is the SLL after IGCSEs.
In Germany at least one of the 1st tier ISs is US /AP/Abitur and another is IGCSE A* or DIP at SLL.
Id go though the rest but its mostly the same and confirms as I stated earlier. In Japan for example of the three 1st tier ISs (Tokyo), one of the 1st tier ISs is an IBWS another A * and the other is AP.
As I wrote earlier the majority of elite and 1st tier ISs tend to be NC ISs with DIP as a SLL option. In ASs its typically a US NC until SLL and then DIP may be an option. At BSs its typically a UK NC until IGCSE and then either A* or DIP at SLL. While there are 1st tier IBWSs they usually arent the Elite tier IS, and they are less common than NC ISs. The bulk of the second tier has a much higher proportion of IB ISs.
We grossly disagree the elite tier ISs in Argentina have IB but at one DIP is just an option and at the other IB is an option in lower secondary combined with IGCSE and uses DIP at SLL.
Czechia: Same DIP is an option at SLL or is the SLL after IGCSEs.
In Germany at least one of the 1st tier ISs is US /AP/Abitur and another is IGCSE A* or DIP at SLL.
Id go though the rest but its mostly the same and confirms as I stated earlier. In Japan for example of the three 1st tier ISs (Tokyo), one of the 1st tier ISs is an IBWS another A * and the other is AP.
As I wrote earlier the majority of elite and 1st tier ISs tend to be NC ISs with DIP as a SLL option. In ASs its typically a US NC until SLL and then DIP may be an option. At BSs its typically a UK NC until IGCSE and then either A* or DIP at SLL. While there are 1st tier IBWSs they usually arent the Elite tier IS, and they are less common than NC ISs. The bulk of the second tier has a much higher proportion of IB ISs.
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Heliotrope
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Re: How important is it to break into an IB school?
There's only one tier 1 school in Argentina, and it offers IBDP. Sure, not all students will go for the full IB Diploma (some will only go for a few certificates), but most if not all teachers there will be teaching IB as part of their workload.
I've never heard anyone mention more than one tier 1 school for Argentina.
Same goes for the top school in Czechia.
In Germany you could perhaps add a fourth school if you're inclusive enough, in addition to the 3 that offer IB that I mentioned and are commonly known as the top schools in Germany, but that doesn't change that IB is taught in the majority of top schools there.
And I'm not talking about full IBWS (I prefer IGCSE to MYP), I'm talking about schools that offer IBDP instead of AP.
Not sure which school you see as the third school in Japan – I've only seen two schools there consistently mentioned as top tier 1 schools, and 1 is the IBWS you mention, the other offering AP at SLL. So 50/50 split there.
You'll have to go through the rest if you do want to make your point, since all I'm seeing are cases in point that IB is taught at many if not most top tier 1 international schools, in addition to a lot of the tier 2 schools as you correctly point out.
But hey, let's agree to disagree then, since we're probably not going to be able to convince each other.
I've never heard anyone mention more than one tier 1 school for Argentina.
Same goes for the top school in Czechia.
In Germany you could perhaps add a fourth school if you're inclusive enough, in addition to the 3 that offer IB that I mentioned and are commonly known as the top schools in Germany, but that doesn't change that IB is taught in the majority of top schools there.
And I'm not talking about full IBWS (I prefer IGCSE to MYP), I'm talking about schools that offer IBDP instead of AP.
Not sure which school you see as the third school in Japan – I've only seen two schools there consistently mentioned as top tier 1 schools, and 1 is the IBWS you mention, the other offering AP at SLL. So 50/50 split there.
You'll have to go through the rest if you do want to make your point, since all I'm seeing are cases in point that IB is taught at many if not most top tier 1 international schools, in addition to a lot of the tier 2 schools as you correctly point out.
But hey, let's agree to disagree then, since we're probably not going to be able to convince each other.
Re: How important is it to break into an IB school?
Heliotrope wrote:
> And I'm not talking about full IBWS (I prefer IGCSE to MYP), I'm talking
> about schools that offer IBDP instead of AP.
> Not sure which school you see as the third school in Japan – I've only seen
> two schools there consistently mentioned as top tier 1 schools, and 1 is
> the IBWS you mention, the other offering AP at SLL. So 50/50 split there.
He means the Brit School which has been said to be Tier 1 in terms of package, results and prestige from teachers I've spoken to (it's not IBDP so I've no interest in it or the AP school for that matter) but Brit schools tend to go under the radar on here as most Americans haven't even heard of them and this site leans more toward U.S. schools.
Surely the big, true international schools (international cohort and student body) are mostly IB these days, though? At least for the DP?
> And I'm not talking about full IBWS (I prefer IGCSE to MYP), I'm talking
> about schools that offer IBDP instead of AP.
> Not sure which school you see as the third school in Japan – I've only seen
> two schools there consistently mentioned as top tier 1 schools, and 1 is
> the IBWS you mention, the other offering AP at SLL. So 50/50 split there.
He means the Brit School which has been said to be Tier 1 in terms of package, results and prestige from teachers I've spoken to (it's not IBDP so I've no interest in it or the AP school for that matter) but Brit schools tend to go under the radar on here as most Americans haven't even heard of them and this site leans more toward U.S. schools.
Surely the big, true international schools (international cohort and student body) are mostly IB these days, though? At least for the DP?
Reply
@Heliotrope
You stated that the top ISs in Argentina and Czechia are exclusively IB and theres nothing exclusive about them being IB. Were likely in disagreement over what are the top ISs and what an IB IS and an NC IS are, you seem to have the position that if an IS touches or has any type of IB program they are an IB IS. I suppose you would call an IS that had AP an AP IS. I dont share the position that an IS that for 10 years of its curriculum is providing an NC and then for two years either has DIP as an option or their SLL is DIP, is an IB IS. Even then as written before the majority of tier one ISs are NC ISs and many dont even touch IB at all.
Yes, we just disagree, I love the IB koolaid but Ive drunken it long enough to see the IB isnt as shiny as it would like to think it is.
@MartElla
Not to be exclusive but theres also the FSs and EUSs (usually the German/Swiss IS) as well.
I dont see a majority of them being IB ISs, certainly not IBWSs and Im not of the position that an AS or BS or other IS in the first tier that offers DIP either in whole or as an option at SLL makes them an IB IS. How does IB mean anything to an ITs marketability if they teach primary or lower secondary or anything but year 11 and 12, and then is DIP the only pathway in year 11 and 12 for SLL if an IT does teach those year levels exclusively. Even then of all the IB programs the DIP is the easiest to adapt to as all the IE curriculums are highly congruent at SLL. Its far more common in my experience than when an IS has DIP as an option, there is little if any IBness or ethos in the IS. Its usually that group of students that have an IB club ASP or they have to stay after senior school meeting for an extra 10-15 minutes and parents have an extra meeting night, otherwise DIP is just the honors track or the global social justice warrior option. Even the ITs can put on blinders to the IBness, its a checklist curriculum and its not any different than AP or A*, just mention something from the IB Learner Profile and do your CAS/Essay/TOK reminders. Those ISs are NC ISs they dont breath IB.
You stated that the top ISs in Argentina and Czechia are exclusively IB and theres nothing exclusive about them being IB. Were likely in disagreement over what are the top ISs and what an IB IS and an NC IS are, you seem to have the position that if an IS touches or has any type of IB program they are an IB IS. I suppose you would call an IS that had AP an AP IS. I dont share the position that an IS that for 10 years of its curriculum is providing an NC and then for two years either has DIP as an option or their SLL is DIP, is an IB IS. Even then as written before the majority of tier one ISs are NC ISs and many dont even touch IB at all.
Yes, we just disagree, I love the IB koolaid but Ive drunken it long enough to see the IB isnt as shiny as it would like to think it is.
@MartElla
Not to be exclusive but theres also the FSs and EUSs (usually the German/Swiss IS) as well.
I dont see a majority of them being IB ISs, certainly not IBWSs and Im not of the position that an AS or BS or other IS in the first tier that offers DIP either in whole or as an option at SLL makes them an IB IS. How does IB mean anything to an ITs marketability if they teach primary or lower secondary or anything but year 11 and 12, and then is DIP the only pathway in year 11 and 12 for SLL if an IT does teach those year levels exclusively. Even then of all the IB programs the DIP is the easiest to adapt to as all the IE curriculums are highly congruent at SLL. Its far more common in my experience than when an IS has DIP as an option, there is little if any IBness or ethos in the IS. Its usually that group of students that have an IB club ASP or they have to stay after senior school meeting for an extra 10-15 minutes and parents have an extra meeting night, otherwise DIP is just the honors track or the global social justice warrior option. Even the ITs can put on blinders to the IBness, its a checklist curriculum and its not any different than AP or A*, just mention something from the IB Learner Profile and do your CAS/Essay/TOK reminders. Those ISs are NC ISs they dont breath IB.
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Heliotrope
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Re: How important is it to break into an IB school?
When I say 'exclusively ....' I mean what they offer in addition to NC (AP or IB), the result being that having IB or AP experience on your CV helps you get into these tier 1 schools.
And if you look those stats, IB helps you get into tier 1 schools more (or at least just as much if you want to stretch the definition on tier 1 schools) as having AP experience.
So with that in mind, and returning to the original question this topic:
yes, it can definitely be important to break into an IB school if you have your mind set on getting to a tier 1 school (or tier 2), as a lot of them offer IBDP.
And if you look those stats, IB helps you get into tier 1 schools more (or at least just as much if you want to stretch the definition on tier 1 schools) as having AP experience.
So with that in mind, and returning to the original question this topic:
yes, it can definitely be important to break into an IB school if you have your mind set on getting to a tier 1 school (or tier 2), as a lot of them offer IBDP.
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Heliotrope
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: How important is it to break into an IB school?
I'm not an IB-promotor by the way.
I think it's a great well-rounded curriculum (apart from MYP at the moment, but that's improving), but it's A LOT of work for the students, and academically very challenging, so not for everybody.
I'm not even sure if I'd want my own kids to go through it, as I'd like them to have some free time to lazy around as well, instead of having to do homework for most of their time outside of school.
Nevertheless, lots of tier 1 schools offer PYP and (mostly) IBDP, so as a teacher having IB experience gives you an edge over those that have none.
In my (lower tier 1) school, 90% of the kids do the full IBDP program btw, so it's not seen as 'an option', but rather the standard path.
I think it's a great well-rounded curriculum (apart from MYP at the moment, but that's improving), but it's A LOT of work for the students, and academically very challenging, so not for everybody.
I'm not even sure if I'd want my own kids to go through it, as I'd like them to have some free time to lazy around as well, instead of having to do homework for most of their time outside of school.
Nevertheless, lots of tier 1 schools offer PYP and (mostly) IBDP, so as a teacher having IB experience gives you an edge over those that have none.
In my (lower tier 1) school, 90% of the kids do the full IBDP program btw, so it's not seen as 'an option', but rather the standard path.
Discussion
Digressing and getting back to the question, the second tier has a very high proportion of IB ISs, and the second tier bridges a lot of ITs careers to first tier and allows you to spend less time in the third tier 'waiting' for a suitable first tier vacancy, but most first tier ISs are not IB ISs but NC ISs, and IB isnt going to increase your utility when applying to those ISs.