Hello,
I am a new teacher with an MA in Teaching and a CA Preliminary Teaching Credential.
My only experience is one year of student teaching and one year as a substitute.
I cannot find work in America (mainly because I refuse to work in Charter Schools) so I applied to a Chinese School near Foshan for a teaching position. (Please note the school is not an accredited International School but rather a Private School). Tuition for students is 30,000 RMB if that helps.
I got an offer to teach for a salary of 220,000 RMB for 10 months.
Pros: Free Accomodation
Flight
Health Care
Free Meals
Prof. Development
Tax Free Income
Nice part of China weather wise, close to HK
Cons: Long Hours (8:00-16:30) The school expects you to stay after dismissal to lesson plan
Must pay for utilities and internet
I would not be able to clear my credentials because the school uses WIDA standards and my home state would not classify
them as equivalent.
Vacation Days have to be made up on the weekend; excluding winter break.
Based on the above is this a good or bad job offer? If you don't like it, what would make it a fair job offer?
Is this a bad job offer?
Response
Background:
Most ISs are private/independent institutions. This IS is likely accredited by someone (even if its just the local ministry of education) which isnt different from an "international IS" thats accredited by one of the major curriculum bodies.
The experience and accreditation has nothing to do with being able to transition your preliminary credential to the CLEAR credential, its that you need to complete induction, and you can do that on your own online through a number of universities, though of course you have to pay the coin yourself for the program. You can do it anywhere though.
The consensus and general bar to entry in IE is 2 years post credentialing experience, you have none (sub/relief/supply teaching generally does not count. Field experience generally does not count).
The typical contract duty day for an IT is 8 hours so 8am-4:30pm is within reasonable expectations. It depends how many teaching hours/periods you have. If students are dismissed at 3pm and you have no ASP after that then its really just 90 extra minutes of internet time and lounging in the staff room.
Inquiry:
Is this tax free as in free of US taxes only or are they absorbing the Chinese taxes for you as well?
What year and subject will you be teaching?
Is the housing benefit for 10 or 12 months?
Is the flight benefit one incoming OW flight or is it RT, and if its RT is it annual, beginning and end of contract or beginning and end of service?
Is the Health plan a local plan thats restricted to a local Chinese hospital or is it a global plan that provides a western practice and western medical staff?
Ana1ysis:
Its a on the lower side of a decent offer for you. Youre an intern class IT, you have no experience and your MA in Teaching is strongly suggestive of a primary/elementary IT, which in IE are a pence for ten. Annulizing the salary over 12 months assuming no tax deductions your looking at RMB¥18K/mth. The very bottom of IE/top of EE is RMB¥20K/mth so your making ESOL coin. Which wouldnt be bad for an ET with an ETs schedule, which is about half a day of teaching periods. What is a big warning red flag is the making up "vacation" days on the weekend. Thats very much inline with what an ET would have to do in ESOL. What are you doing on these weekend times (assuming students arent there).
Whats the housing, is it a private room in a shared apartment. Is it local eastern or western design. Are the furnishings what a western professional would expect or is it more what youd see in a Uni students dormitory/apartment? Can you stay in the apartment for 12 months over the summer or do you have to leave after 10 months?
Utilities arent a big deal, gas, electric, water in China is cheap, even bottled water for drinking isnt a huge expense if you have to pay for it yourself. Internet isnt cheap, and you have to pay for the whole year in advance it would be a few hundred USD for unlimited data at a speed that will stream video (youtube) decently. Satellite can be pricy and you wont get any English stations over broadcast but you can get a streaming stick (Roku, Chromecast, Apple TV) and using your VPN watch whatever. Mobile isnt hugely expensive as long as you stick to voice and SMS/MMS its data thats expensive (relatively).
If the flight is just incoming OW than its better than nothing. You should ask how thats arranged, but its probably reimbursed and given the quality of the IS you will have to wait months too a year to get it, and even then they will probably try to low ball the reimbursement.
You mention no other relocation allowances such as shipping/shopping or settling in allowance which is typical of ESOL contracts.
How often are the free meals? If its daily service as an IT that could save you some coin. If its 3 a day or less using some coupon system its still better than nothing. understand though that food is cheap in China, you can get a bowel of noodles for a USD$.25. Your IS is probably typical Chinese student fare and the IT plate is probably priced at 2RMB for breakfast (congee, which is rice porridge with some meat or egg and maybe sugared donuts in the morning). 3-4RMB for lunch which is going to be rice, a small helping of your choice of a meat dish and two small helpings of a non meat dish for RMB¥3 or 2 meat and 2 non-meat for RMB¥4 (your IS might make you pay the difference for the extra meat dish) and then if an evening meal such as dinner its more of the same that you had at lunch but you get soup and a small sweet such as almond cookie, etc. Half of the lunch and dinner plates are large portions of rice. The only really good thing about it is you can often get to go dishes made of whatever you want (that they have ingredients for) very cheap. You can even bring things in like cuts of beef, etc. and have them cooked to order. All in all though the benefit isnt much, its probably breakfast and lunch which is RMB¥5/day for 22 days out of the month is RMB¥110/mth they are budgeting it on the ledger for which is USD$15/mth, food in China is cheap, Its an ultra cheap benefit that gives the appearance of value when in fact its trivial.
The Health care isnt likely worth anything. Its probably a local policy that will get you into a hospital if you break a bone and need it set or some other minor surgical ailment. Bobos like sprain or respiratory infection like throat, nose or ears and youll get some cheap antibiotics without even really seeing a doctor or an off the shelf ace bandage. The ISs nurse might even be the point of contact for that. Regardless anything major or expensive and there is likely a contract provision that says if you are unfit for work for more than 30 days they can (and will) dismiss you. If you end up hit by a car or have something expensive happen to you, they will dismiss you and then your insurance disappears as well.
The professional development isnt going to be worth anything. Its likely going to be a Friday afternoon or Saturday you give up with out coin to listen to someone in leadership go through a power point slide of something they saw on the internet. At lower tier ISs in China the best PD you can hope for (if its not required by the IB for example) is language classes. There are ISs that have supplemented Masters programs for example, but you already have one.
Be very careful about the "tax free", lower tier ISs in China like to spin tax free meaning to them you dont pay US or UK taxes but you still pay local tax and you dont get the bill or know until the end of the year when your last salary disbursement is nothing but a pay slip saying it was all absorbed for taxes.
You should also ask about document reimbursement for visas, etc. They probably dont provide any but that will cost a few hundred USD.
The weather is okay for China, but its not really close to HK, its about 3 hrs by intercity train and about 4.5 hrs by coach bus. The train costs about RMB¥220 and the coach about RMB¥80. Though you could reasonably make it a weekend habit to go to HK.
What would make it reasonable for you would be:
1) Free vacation days you dont have to come in on the weekends to make up. Thats why they are called vacation.
2) A minimum salary of RMB¥250K/yr for 10 months. You would probably have to start at RMB¥270K and then get down to something in the 250-260 range.
3) Annual 12 month housing especially if you are returning for the next year.
4) RT air at the beginning and end of contract or at least at the beginning and end of service.
5) A utility allowance
6) A few hundred USD as a settling in allowance (forget shipping and shopping, you land you get an envelope of coin). About RMB¥2000 would be fine. You would probably have to spin this though to get it.
7) Private independent housing assuming its not included already.
8) Truly free of all taxes.
You cant really do much about the rest. The PD is what it will be, the health plan is what it is, etc. You dont mention dependents so places/waivers arent relevant.
Most ISs are private/independent institutions. This IS is likely accredited by someone (even if its just the local ministry of education) which isnt different from an "international IS" thats accredited by one of the major curriculum bodies.
The experience and accreditation has nothing to do with being able to transition your preliminary credential to the CLEAR credential, its that you need to complete induction, and you can do that on your own online through a number of universities, though of course you have to pay the coin yourself for the program. You can do it anywhere though.
The consensus and general bar to entry in IE is 2 years post credentialing experience, you have none (sub/relief/supply teaching generally does not count. Field experience generally does not count).
The typical contract duty day for an IT is 8 hours so 8am-4:30pm is within reasonable expectations. It depends how many teaching hours/periods you have. If students are dismissed at 3pm and you have no ASP after that then its really just 90 extra minutes of internet time and lounging in the staff room.
Inquiry:
Is this tax free as in free of US taxes only or are they absorbing the Chinese taxes for you as well?
What year and subject will you be teaching?
Is the housing benefit for 10 or 12 months?
Is the flight benefit one incoming OW flight or is it RT, and if its RT is it annual, beginning and end of contract or beginning and end of service?
Is the Health plan a local plan thats restricted to a local Chinese hospital or is it a global plan that provides a western practice and western medical staff?
Ana1ysis:
Its a on the lower side of a decent offer for you. Youre an intern class IT, you have no experience and your MA in Teaching is strongly suggestive of a primary/elementary IT, which in IE are a pence for ten. Annulizing the salary over 12 months assuming no tax deductions your looking at RMB¥18K/mth. The very bottom of IE/top of EE is RMB¥20K/mth so your making ESOL coin. Which wouldnt be bad for an ET with an ETs schedule, which is about half a day of teaching periods. What is a big warning red flag is the making up "vacation" days on the weekend. Thats very much inline with what an ET would have to do in ESOL. What are you doing on these weekend times (assuming students arent there).
Whats the housing, is it a private room in a shared apartment. Is it local eastern or western design. Are the furnishings what a western professional would expect or is it more what youd see in a Uni students dormitory/apartment? Can you stay in the apartment for 12 months over the summer or do you have to leave after 10 months?
Utilities arent a big deal, gas, electric, water in China is cheap, even bottled water for drinking isnt a huge expense if you have to pay for it yourself. Internet isnt cheap, and you have to pay for the whole year in advance it would be a few hundred USD for unlimited data at a speed that will stream video (youtube) decently. Satellite can be pricy and you wont get any English stations over broadcast but you can get a streaming stick (Roku, Chromecast, Apple TV) and using your VPN watch whatever. Mobile isnt hugely expensive as long as you stick to voice and SMS/MMS its data thats expensive (relatively).
If the flight is just incoming OW than its better than nothing. You should ask how thats arranged, but its probably reimbursed and given the quality of the IS you will have to wait months too a year to get it, and even then they will probably try to low ball the reimbursement.
You mention no other relocation allowances such as shipping/shopping or settling in allowance which is typical of ESOL contracts.
How often are the free meals? If its daily service as an IT that could save you some coin. If its 3 a day or less using some coupon system its still better than nothing. understand though that food is cheap in China, you can get a bowel of noodles for a USD$.25. Your IS is probably typical Chinese student fare and the IT plate is probably priced at 2RMB for breakfast (congee, which is rice porridge with some meat or egg and maybe sugared donuts in the morning). 3-4RMB for lunch which is going to be rice, a small helping of your choice of a meat dish and two small helpings of a non meat dish for RMB¥3 or 2 meat and 2 non-meat for RMB¥4 (your IS might make you pay the difference for the extra meat dish) and then if an evening meal such as dinner its more of the same that you had at lunch but you get soup and a small sweet such as almond cookie, etc. Half of the lunch and dinner plates are large portions of rice. The only really good thing about it is you can often get to go dishes made of whatever you want (that they have ingredients for) very cheap. You can even bring things in like cuts of beef, etc. and have them cooked to order. All in all though the benefit isnt much, its probably breakfast and lunch which is RMB¥5/day for 22 days out of the month is RMB¥110/mth they are budgeting it on the ledger for which is USD$15/mth, food in China is cheap, Its an ultra cheap benefit that gives the appearance of value when in fact its trivial.
The Health care isnt likely worth anything. Its probably a local policy that will get you into a hospital if you break a bone and need it set or some other minor surgical ailment. Bobos like sprain or respiratory infection like throat, nose or ears and youll get some cheap antibiotics without even really seeing a doctor or an off the shelf ace bandage. The ISs nurse might even be the point of contact for that. Regardless anything major or expensive and there is likely a contract provision that says if you are unfit for work for more than 30 days they can (and will) dismiss you. If you end up hit by a car or have something expensive happen to you, they will dismiss you and then your insurance disappears as well.
The professional development isnt going to be worth anything. Its likely going to be a Friday afternoon or Saturday you give up with out coin to listen to someone in leadership go through a power point slide of something they saw on the internet. At lower tier ISs in China the best PD you can hope for (if its not required by the IB for example) is language classes. There are ISs that have supplemented Masters programs for example, but you already have one.
Be very careful about the "tax free", lower tier ISs in China like to spin tax free meaning to them you dont pay US or UK taxes but you still pay local tax and you dont get the bill or know until the end of the year when your last salary disbursement is nothing but a pay slip saying it was all absorbed for taxes.
You should also ask about document reimbursement for visas, etc. They probably dont provide any but that will cost a few hundred USD.
The weather is okay for China, but its not really close to HK, its about 3 hrs by intercity train and about 4.5 hrs by coach bus. The train costs about RMB¥220 and the coach about RMB¥80. Though you could reasonably make it a weekend habit to go to HK.
What would make it reasonable for you would be:
1) Free vacation days you dont have to come in on the weekends to make up. Thats why they are called vacation.
2) A minimum salary of RMB¥250K/yr for 10 months. You would probably have to start at RMB¥270K and then get down to something in the 250-260 range.
3) Annual 12 month housing especially if you are returning for the next year.
4) RT air at the beginning and end of contract or at least at the beginning and end of service.
5) A utility allowance
6) A few hundred USD as a settling in allowance (forget shipping and shopping, you land you get an envelope of coin). About RMB¥2000 would be fine. You would probably have to spin this though to get it.
7) Private independent housing assuming its not included already.
8) Truly free of all taxes.
You cant really do much about the rest. The PD is what it will be, the health plan is what it is, etc. You dont mention dependents so places/waivers arent relevant.
Re: Response
PsyGuy wrote:
> Inquiry:
>
> Is this tax free as in free of US taxes only or are they absorbing the
> Chinese taxes for you as well?
> What year and subject will you be teaching?
> Is the housing benefit for 10 or 12 months?
> Is the flight benefit one incoming OW flight or is it RT, and if its RT is
> it annual, beginning and end of contract or beginning and end of service?
> Is the Health plan a local plan thats restricted to a local Chinese
> hospital or is it a global plan that provides a western practice and
> western medical staff?
>
> Ana1ysis:
>
> Its a on the lower side of a decent offer for you. Youre an intern class
> IT, you have no experience and your MA in Teaching is strongly suggestive
> of a primary/elementary IT, which in IE are a pence for ten. Annulizing the
> salary over 12 months assuming no tax deductions your looking at
> RMB¥18K/mth. The very bottom of IE/top of EE is RMB¥20K/mth so your making
> ESOL coin. Which wouldnt be bad for an ET with an ETs schedule, which is
> about half a day of teaching periods. What is a big warning red flag is the
> making up "vacation" days on the weekend. Thats very much inline
> with what an ET would have to do in ESOL. What are you doing on these
> weekend times (assuming students arent there).
>
> Whats the housing, is it a private room in a shared apartment. Is it local
> eastern or western design. Are the furnishings what a western professional
> would expect or is it more what youd see in a Uni students
> dormitory/apartment? Can you stay in the apartment for 12 months over the
> summer or do you have to leave after 10 months?
> Utilities arent a big deal, gas, electric, water in China is cheap, even
> bottled water for drinking isnt a huge expense if you have to pay for it
> yourself. Internet isnt cheap, and you have to pay for the whole year in
> advance it would be a few hundred USD for unlimited data at a speed that
> will stream video (youtube) decently. Satellite can be pricy and you wont
> get any English stations over broadcast but you can get a streaming stick
> (Roku, Chromecast, Apple TV) and using your VPN watch whatever. Mobile isnt
> hugely expensive as long as you stick to voice and SMS/MMS its data thats
> expensive (relatively).
>
> If the flight is just incoming OW than its better than nothing. You should
> ask how thats arranged, but its probably reimbursed and given the quality
> of the IS you will have to wait months too a year to get it, and even then
> they will probably try to low ball the reimbursement.
>
> You mention no other relocation allowances such as shipping/shopping or
> settling in allowance which is typical of ESOL contracts.
>
> How often are the free meals? If its daily service as an IT that could save
> you some coin. If its 3 a day or less using some coupon system its still
> better than nothing. understand though that food is cheap in China, you can
> get a bowel of noodles for a USD$.25. Your IS is probably typical Chinese
> student fare and the IT plate is probably priced at 2RMB for breakfast
> (congee, which is rice porridge with some meat or egg and maybe sugared
> donuts in the morning). 3-4RMB for lunch which is going to be rice, a small
> helping of your choice of a meat dish and two small helpings of a non meat
> dish for RMB¥3 or 2 meat and 2 non-meat for RMB¥4 (your IS might make you
> pay the difference for the extra meat dish) and then if an evening meal
> such as dinner its more of the same that you had at lunch but you get soup
> and a small sweet such as almond cookie, etc. Half of the lunch and dinner
> plates are large portions of rice. The only really good thing about it is
> you can often get to go dishes made of whatever you want (that they have
> ingredients for) very cheap. You can even bring things in like cuts of
> beef, etc. and have them cooked to order. All in all though the benefit
> isnt much, its probably breakfast and lunch which is RMB¥5/day for 22 days
> out of the month is RMB¥110/mth they are budgeting it on the ledger for
> which is USD$15/mth, food in China is cheap, Its an ultra cheap benefit
> that gives the appearance of value when in fact its trivial.
>
> The Health care isnt likely worth anything. Its probably a local policy
> that will get you into a hospital if you break a bone and need it set or
> some other minor surgical ailment. Bobos like sprain or respiratory
> infection like throat, nose or ears and youll get some cheap antibiotics
> without even really seeing a doctor or an off the shelf ace bandage. The
> ISs nurse might even be the point of contact for that. Regardless anything
> major or expensive and there is likely a contract provision that says if
> you are unfit for work for more than 30 days they can (and will) dismiss
> you. If you end up hit by a car or have something expensive happen to you,
> they will dismiss you and then your insurance disappears as well.
>
> The professional development isnt going to be worth anything. Its likely
> going to be a Friday afternoon or Saturday you give up with out coin to
> listen to someone in leadership go through a power point slide of something
> they saw on the internet. At lower tier ISs in China the best PD you can
> hope for (if its not required by the IB for example) is language classes.
> There are ISs that have supplemented Masters programs for example, but you
> already have one.
>
> Be very careful about the "tax free", lower tier ISs in China
> like to spin tax free meaning to them you dont pay US or UK taxes but you
> still pay local tax and you dont get the bill or know until the end of the
> year when your last salary disbursement is nothing but a pay slip saying it
> was all absorbed for taxes.
>
> You should also ask about document reimbursement for visas, etc. They
> probably dont provide any but that will cost a few hundred USD.
>
> The weather is okay for China, but its not really close to HK, its about 3
> hrs by intercity train and about 4.5 hrs by coach bus. The train costs
> about RMB¥220 and the coach about RMB¥80. Though you could reasonably make
> it a weekend habit to go to HK.
>
> What would make it reasonable for you would be:
> 1) Free vacation days you dont have to come in on the weekends to make up.
> Thats why they are called vacation.
> 2) A minimum salary of RMB¥250K/yr for 10 months. You would probably have
> to start at RMB¥270K and then get down to something in the 250-260 range.
> 3) Annual 12 month housing especially if you are returning for the next
> year.
> 4) RT air at the beginning and end of contract or at least at the beginning
> and end of service.
> 5) A utility allowance
> 6) A few hundred USD as a settling in allowance (forget shipping and
> shopping, you land you get an envelope of coin). About RMB¥2000 would be
> fine. You would probably have to spin this though to get it.
> 7) Private independent housing assuming its not included already.
> 8) Truly free of all taxes.
>
> You cant really do much about the rest. The PD is what it will be, the
> health plan is what it is, etc. You dont mention dependents so
> places/waivers arent relevant.
Hello Psyguy,
Thank you for you in depth -. You have made my decision a lot easier. I think you make some compelling arguments. The salary is very low end for an IS. I think I want to go back and counter offer with 300K RMB which is roughly $4,500 USD per month. I don't think these terms will be acceptable, however truth be told I have other options in America that still have not transpired as the hiring season goes late into the Summer here in the states. As mentioned above my top priority is to clear my credential which is not possible at this particular school because the standards they teach are not equivalent to CA standards.
In response to your inquiry, the flight is RT and the healthcare is probably some run of the mill, fly by night coverage provided only in China. I would be teaching upper primary students, the housing is for 10 months, the US-China tax treaty would exempt me from paying taxes to China, with the help of the school. I could also avoid paying taxes to the US due to the ex-pat exemption based on living abroad for 330 days. The visa is paid by the school.
I think you are absolutely right about the food benefit which is trivial at best. I checked about the Prof. Development and the only advantage is they would provide me with a mentor if I needed to clear my credential.
What really bothers me about there terms is the fact you make-up holidays by working weekends with students present. This essentially means you are not afforded any vacation days despite working many long hours M-F. Moreover assuming your attendance is perfect you are given only 5 sick days.
Like I mentioned I will counter offer, but I assume my terms are too high to be acceptable.
> Inquiry:
>
> Is this tax free as in free of US taxes only or are they absorbing the
> Chinese taxes for you as well?
> What year and subject will you be teaching?
> Is the housing benefit for 10 or 12 months?
> Is the flight benefit one incoming OW flight or is it RT, and if its RT is
> it annual, beginning and end of contract or beginning and end of service?
> Is the Health plan a local plan thats restricted to a local Chinese
> hospital or is it a global plan that provides a western practice and
> western medical staff?
>
> Ana1ysis:
>
> Its a on the lower side of a decent offer for you. Youre an intern class
> IT, you have no experience and your MA in Teaching is strongly suggestive
> of a primary/elementary IT, which in IE are a pence for ten. Annulizing the
> salary over 12 months assuming no tax deductions your looking at
> RMB¥18K/mth. The very bottom of IE/top of EE is RMB¥20K/mth so your making
> ESOL coin. Which wouldnt be bad for an ET with an ETs schedule, which is
> about half a day of teaching periods. What is a big warning red flag is the
> making up "vacation" days on the weekend. Thats very much inline
> with what an ET would have to do in ESOL. What are you doing on these
> weekend times (assuming students arent there).
>
> Whats the housing, is it a private room in a shared apartment. Is it local
> eastern or western design. Are the furnishings what a western professional
> would expect or is it more what youd see in a Uni students
> dormitory/apartment? Can you stay in the apartment for 12 months over the
> summer or do you have to leave after 10 months?
> Utilities arent a big deal, gas, electric, water in China is cheap, even
> bottled water for drinking isnt a huge expense if you have to pay for it
> yourself. Internet isnt cheap, and you have to pay for the whole year in
> advance it would be a few hundred USD for unlimited data at a speed that
> will stream video (youtube) decently. Satellite can be pricy and you wont
> get any English stations over broadcast but you can get a streaming stick
> (Roku, Chromecast, Apple TV) and using your VPN watch whatever. Mobile isnt
> hugely expensive as long as you stick to voice and SMS/MMS its data thats
> expensive (relatively).
>
> If the flight is just incoming OW than its better than nothing. You should
> ask how thats arranged, but its probably reimbursed and given the quality
> of the IS you will have to wait months too a year to get it, and even then
> they will probably try to low ball the reimbursement.
>
> You mention no other relocation allowances such as shipping/shopping or
> settling in allowance which is typical of ESOL contracts.
>
> How often are the free meals? If its daily service as an IT that could save
> you some coin. If its 3 a day or less using some coupon system its still
> better than nothing. understand though that food is cheap in China, you can
> get a bowel of noodles for a USD$.25. Your IS is probably typical Chinese
> student fare and the IT plate is probably priced at 2RMB for breakfast
> (congee, which is rice porridge with some meat or egg and maybe sugared
> donuts in the morning). 3-4RMB for lunch which is going to be rice, a small
> helping of your choice of a meat dish and two small helpings of a non meat
> dish for RMB¥3 or 2 meat and 2 non-meat for RMB¥4 (your IS might make you
> pay the difference for the extra meat dish) and then if an evening meal
> such as dinner its more of the same that you had at lunch but you get soup
> and a small sweet such as almond cookie, etc. Half of the lunch and dinner
> plates are large portions of rice. The only really good thing about it is
> you can often get to go dishes made of whatever you want (that they have
> ingredients for) very cheap. You can even bring things in like cuts of
> beef, etc. and have them cooked to order. All in all though the benefit
> isnt much, its probably breakfast and lunch which is RMB¥5/day for 22 days
> out of the month is RMB¥110/mth they are budgeting it on the ledger for
> which is USD$15/mth, food in China is cheap, Its an ultra cheap benefit
> that gives the appearance of value when in fact its trivial.
>
> The Health care isnt likely worth anything. Its probably a local policy
> that will get you into a hospital if you break a bone and need it set or
> some other minor surgical ailment. Bobos like sprain or respiratory
> infection like throat, nose or ears and youll get some cheap antibiotics
> without even really seeing a doctor or an off the shelf ace bandage. The
> ISs nurse might even be the point of contact for that. Regardless anything
> major or expensive and there is likely a contract provision that says if
> you are unfit for work for more than 30 days they can (and will) dismiss
> you. If you end up hit by a car or have something expensive happen to you,
> they will dismiss you and then your insurance disappears as well.
>
> The professional development isnt going to be worth anything. Its likely
> going to be a Friday afternoon or Saturday you give up with out coin to
> listen to someone in leadership go through a power point slide of something
> they saw on the internet. At lower tier ISs in China the best PD you can
> hope for (if its not required by the IB for example) is language classes.
> There are ISs that have supplemented Masters programs for example, but you
> already have one.
>
> Be very careful about the "tax free", lower tier ISs in China
> like to spin tax free meaning to them you dont pay US or UK taxes but you
> still pay local tax and you dont get the bill or know until the end of the
> year when your last salary disbursement is nothing but a pay slip saying it
> was all absorbed for taxes.
>
> You should also ask about document reimbursement for visas, etc. They
> probably dont provide any but that will cost a few hundred USD.
>
> The weather is okay for China, but its not really close to HK, its about 3
> hrs by intercity train and about 4.5 hrs by coach bus. The train costs
> about RMB¥220 and the coach about RMB¥80. Though you could reasonably make
> it a weekend habit to go to HK.
>
> What would make it reasonable for you would be:
> 1) Free vacation days you dont have to come in on the weekends to make up.
> Thats why they are called vacation.
> 2) A minimum salary of RMB¥250K/yr for 10 months. You would probably have
> to start at RMB¥270K and then get down to something in the 250-260 range.
> 3) Annual 12 month housing especially if you are returning for the next
> year.
> 4) RT air at the beginning and end of contract or at least at the beginning
> and end of service.
> 5) A utility allowance
> 6) A few hundred USD as a settling in allowance (forget shipping and
> shopping, you land you get an envelope of coin). About RMB¥2000 would be
> fine. You would probably have to spin this though to get it.
> 7) Private independent housing assuming its not included already.
> 8) Truly free of all taxes.
>
> You cant really do much about the rest. The PD is what it will be, the
> health plan is what it is, etc. You dont mention dependents so
> places/waivers arent relevant.
Hello Psyguy,
Thank you for you in depth -. You have made my decision a lot easier. I think you make some compelling arguments. The salary is very low end for an IS. I think I want to go back and counter offer with 300K RMB which is roughly $4,500 USD per month. I don't think these terms will be acceptable, however truth be told I have other options in America that still have not transpired as the hiring season goes late into the Summer here in the states. As mentioned above my top priority is to clear my credential which is not possible at this particular school because the standards they teach are not equivalent to CA standards.
In response to your inquiry, the flight is RT and the healthcare is probably some run of the mill, fly by night coverage provided only in China. I would be teaching upper primary students, the housing is for 10 months, the US-China tax treaty would exempt me from paying taxes to China, with the help of the school. I could also avoid paying taxes to the US due to the ex-pat exemption based on living abroad for 330 days. The visa is paid by the school.
I think you are absolutely right about the food benefit which is trivial at best. I checked about the Prof. Development and the only advantage is they would provide me with a mentor if I needed to clear my credential.
What really bothers me about there terms is the fact you make-up holidays by working weekends with students present. This essentially means you are not afforded any vacation days despite working many long hours M-F. Moreover assuming your attendance is perfect you are given only 5 sick days.
Like I mentioned I will counter offer, but I assume my terms are too high to be acceptable.
Reply
@Machete
RMB¥300K is second tier for an IT with 4+ years experience. Ask, but dont be surprised if they go dark or blow you off.
There is no IS that offers an induction program to CLEAR a CA preliminary credential. It doesnt matter if its a first/elite tier AS thats a WASC accredited IS, they dont offer induction. Your option in IE is an online induction/CLEAR program such as SDSU or UCLA, etc. that offer an online with IS mentor pathway. You would have to pay the coin yourself, SDSUs is about USD$7300 and UCLAs is about USD$5600, both programs take two years/four terms.
The tax treaty isnt really worth anything, you can send a copy of it to the ISs HR and they will just shrug and apologize and still take the coin. The central government says taxes are due, and someones got to pay them and if you dont have an agreement and solid understanding that the IS is going to pay them, than that means youre paying them and the treaty isnt going to be worth the paper its printed on. ITs report to their ISs and their first pay disbursement comes up short with taxes withdrawn and the IT goes to HOS with a copy of the treaty and the HOS just shrugs, slides the paper back to them and says "Sorry cant help you, want your taxes back go argue with the provincial government and see how much that treaty gets you".
Yes youd be eligible for one form or another of the US Foreign Tax benefit, but thats everywhere.
In perspective every noob IT candidate looking to get into IE thinks theyre a superstar and theyre awesome and that they should get elite tier treatment and coin, as if they are special. Like everything there are trade offs. You will likely make less coin than you will in CA, housing and other OSH benefits compensate for the discrepancy some but the average global IT salary is about $30K, and youre not getting a pension in IE (outside of some elite tier ISs and the EU). You just arent likely going to find $45K (net) in IE with your resume.
RMB¥300K is second tier for an IT with 4+ years experience. Ask, but dont be surprised if they go dark or blow you off.
There is no IS that offers an induction program to CLEAR a CA preliminary credential. It doesnt matter if its a first/elite tier AS thats a WASC accredited IS, they dont offer induction. Your option in IE is an online induction/CLEAR program such as SDSU or UCLA, etc. that offer an online with IS mentor pathway. You would have to pay the coin yourself, SDSUs is about USD$7300 and UCLAs is about USD$5600, both programs take two years/four terms.
The tax treaty isnt really worth anything, you can send a copy of it to the ISs HR and they will just shrug and apologize and still take the coin. The central government says taxes are due, and someones got to pay them and if you dont have an agreement and solid understanding that the IS is going to pay them, than that means youre paying them and the treaty isnt going to be worth the paper its printed on. ITs report to their ISs and their first pay disbursement comes up short with taxes withdrawn and the IT goes to HOS with a copy of the treaty and the HOS just shrugs, slides the paper back to them and says "Sorry cant help you, want your taxes back go argue with the provincial government and see how much that treaty gets you".
Yes youd be eligible for one form or another of the US Foreign Tax benefit, but thats everywhere.
In perspective every noob IT candidate looking to get into IE thinks theyre a superstar and theyre awesome and that they should get elite tier treatment and coin, as if they are special. Like everything there are trade offs. You will likely make less coin than you will in CA, housing and other OSH benefits compensate for the discrepancy some but the average global IT salary is about $30K, and youre not getting a pension in IE (outside of some elite tier ISs and the EU). You just arent likely going to find $45K (net) in IE with your resume.
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eion_padraig
- Posts: 408
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:18 pm
Re: Is this a bad job offer?
Are you planning on staying overseas for a while? If you are then you'll need to use some place as a stepping stone since you don't have the minimum experience that good schools want. This isn't a particularly good offer, but if you can hack it for two years it gives you want you need to move on to a place where 300,000 RMB/year is an option in a better location.
My question is does it give you IB experience or AP (assuming you're teaching high school)? If it does that and you can get a credential somewhere, then it's probably not a terrible place. Granted Foshan isn't very exciting, but it's viable to get to HK for the weekend though Guangzhou and Shenzhen are decent and less expensive to go to for the weekend. With only 220,000 RMB a year, you can burn through that quickly if you're going to HK a lot.
The working on weekends to make up for holidays is pretty standard practice in Chinese schools. It doesn't happen in the international schools serving foreign students, but is almost always done in the schools with Chinese nationals. The universities do the same thing too. It's irritating.
At this point, the jobs that will be offered are generally not going to be at great places. You might get a slightly better offer somewhere else, but probably not what you're talking about for a counter offer. A counter offer isn't a bad idea, but I don't see them increasing it by that amount.
Eion
My question is does it give you IB experience or AP (assuming you're teaching high school)? If it does that and you can get a credential somewhere, then it's probably not a terrible place. Granted Foshan isn't very exciting, but it's viable to get to HK for the weekend though Guangzhou and Shenzhen are decent and less expensive to go to for the weekend. With only 220,000 RMB a year, you can burn through that quickly if you're going to HK a lot.
The working on weekends to make up for holidays is pretty standard practice in Chinese schools. It doesn't happen in the international schools serving foreign students, but is almost always done in the schools with Chinese nationals. The universities do the same thing too. It's irritating.
At this point, the jobs that will be offered are generally not going to be at great places. You might get a slightly better offer somewhere else, but probably not what you're talking about for a counter offer. A counter offer isn't a bad idea, but I don't see them increasing it by that amount.
Eion
Re: Is this a bad job offer?
These are fun. Let's do more of them. When I saw China, though, I vote, no!
Comment
@eion_padraig
The LW stated in previous posts that the position is an upper primary position and thus AP is irrelevant as well as upper secondary and SLL experience. In addition the LW definitively stated they have a CA preliminary credential, and there is no IS that offers an induction program, thus the issue of obtaining a credential is immaterial.
The LW stated in previous posts that the position is an upper primary position and thus AP is irrelevant as well as upper secondary and SLL experience. In addition the LW definitively stated they have a CA preliminary credential, and there is no IS that offers an induction program, thus the issue of obtaining a credential is immaterial.
Re: Is this a bad job offer?
Join this group on Facebook and ask for a job: https://www.facebook.com/groups/182151908548864/. I see late season openings come up here from time to time
I agree with others that this offer isn't great but can be used as a stepping stone. I worry about what exactly you're teaching, though. If it's a BS curriculum and you're making as much as an ESL teacher, well guess what you might just be an ESL teacher. And that isn't a great use of two years.
I wonder how long you've been looking overseas? I have to think you could find a better offer in China. I don't like how this one is relatively low paying, works you like a dog, and probably isn't great experience to boot.
I agree with others that this offer isn't great but can be used as a stepping stone. I worry about what exactly you're teaching, though. If it's a BS curriculum and you're making as much as an ESL teacher, well guess what you might just be an ESL teacher. And that isn't a great use of two years.
I wonder how long you've been looking overseas? I have to think you could find a better offer in China. I don't like how this one is relatively low paying, works you like a dog, and probably isn't great experience to boot.
Re: Is this a bad job offer?
@PsyGuy
We disagree on OP's potential. The current offer is outside the international school 'system,' there are plenty of administrators in this tier who don't know the rules and will see a U.S.-certified teacher with an M.A. and a year of teaching experience. I think the type of offer OP has currently grows on trees and they might want to continue looking if they only just started applying outside the U.S.
I mean OP go look on eChinacities and apply for one of the million jobs there, maybe you'll at least find one with better hours.
That said I don't mean to dump on this offer too much you can still save some decent money and have a new experience. And you're late in the hiring season and an offer in hand is better than a thousand job postings.
We disagree on OP's potential. The current offer is outside the international school 'system,' there are plenty of administrators in this tier who don't know the rules and will see a U.S.-certified teacher with an M.A. and a year of teaching experience. I think the type of offer OP has currently grows on trees and they might want to continue looking if they only just started applying outside the U.S.
I mean OP go look on eChinacities and apply for one of the million jobs there, maybe you'll at least find one with better hours.
That said I don't mean to dump on this offer too much you can still save some decent money and have a new experience. And you're late in the hiring season and an offer in hand is better than a thousand job postings.
Reply
@cms989
The offer is on the bottom of the IE and theres a lot of overlap of it into ESOL, but the LW is outside the bar of entry in terms of experience for IE.
Yes the LW has a professional credential, there are ETs with various certificates that are professional for ESOL. There are also ETs with various Masters degrees in TESOL, and there are ETS with experience ranging from zero decades.
Yes, there are recruiters and leadership who could see this as an IT with credential, Masters and 1 year experience, an intern class ItTbut still an IT, but this depends how the LW is presenting this on their resume. Do they have a line item for the experience or is it a bullet point under their EPP/ITT program or is it absent?
All that said matters little, the IT made their pitch and this is what the IS thinks its worth, and they are very unlikely to accept the LWs counter, its just too much coin for a lite resume with a lot of white space.
Yes, they could get better hours with much less work teaching ESOL for about the same coin, but they will be in the same position in two years with the same utility to their resume and even less time to clear the CA preliminary credential. Even if theyre making ET coin with a heavy workload, at least in two years they will be marketable to better vacancies with better comp, that they can afford the induction program, assuming they start recruiting with the start of the cycle.
The smart play for the LW is what the Gnome would say, which is to swallow their pride, stay in CA and take an appointment wherever they can get one, including a charter DS for the year to clear the CA Preliminary credential that will be provided for them at no cost for a year. Then use that experience and spin the field work into 2 years of DE experience and start recruiting at the beginning of the cycle.
The offer is on the bottom of the IE and theres a lot of overlap of it into ESOL, but the LW is outside the bar of entry in terms of experience for IE.
Yes the LW has a professional credential, there are ETs with various certificates that are professional for ESOL. There are also ETs with various Masters degrees in TESOL, and there are ETS with experience ranging from zero decades.
Yes, there are recruiters and leadership who could see this as an IT with credential, Masters and 1 year experience, an intern class ItTbut still an IT, but this depends how the LW is presenting this on their resume. Do they have a line item for the experience or is it a bullet point under their EPP/ITT program or is it absent?
All that said matters little, the IT made their pitch and this is what the IS thinks its worth, and they are very unlikely to accept the LWs counter, its just too much coin for a lite resume with a lot of white space.
Yes, they could get better hours with much less work teaching ESOL for about the same coin, but they will be in the same position in two years with the same utility to their resume and even less time to clear the CA preliminary credential. Even if theyre making ET coin with a heavy workload, at least in two years they will be marketable to better vacancies with better comp, that they can afford the induction program, assuming they start recruiting with the start of the cycle.
The smart play for the LW is what the Gnome would say, which is to swallow their pride, stay in CA and take an appointment wherever they can get one, including a charter DS for the year to clear the CA Preliminary credential that will be provided for them at no cost for a year. Then use that experience and spin the field work into 2 years of DE experience and start recruiting at the beginning of the cycle.