Go for 2nd tier in 2nd choice city or hold out?

[brillo]

So here's a 'quick' rundown of my current situation: I have an offer from a 2nd tier IS but the package seems questionable, 93K THB in Bangkok with no housing allowance. Having looked up salaries online, it seems that this was the norm about 5 years ago? Has it really not improved since then?

I'm currently waiting on a 3rd round interview for a top tier school in my first choice city. Unfortunately, the interview is after I would have to accept/decline the first (only) offer...

I would take the interview job in a heartbeat, the package is infinitely better, the location is one that is seen as competitive BUT I don't think that I have the necessary experience for the job, to be honest, I'm surprised that I got the first interview.

The reason I'm so unsure about taking the offer of the 1st one, even if I didn't have any other potential jobs coming up, is that I'm worried that working at a 2nd (or possibly 3rd) tier school would look bad when I try to apply for top tier schools. Additionally, would being on such a small package impact upon the package I'd receive if I were to move to different school? Also, the school is part of a for profit chain which I'm wary of anyways.

What do you guys think? Should I hold out or just take the current offer? Is 93k THB without any housing allowance enough to save on?

I've also read that it is now 'late' in the recruitment cycle but I remember seeing quite a few nice IS jobs around easter last year...but a bird in the hand and all that...

Thank you in advance for any advice you can give!

P.S. a little background on me may (or may not) help: this would be my first IS job and I only have 2 years experience, that said I have taught both IGCSE and IB at a UK independent, I teach a shortage subject and I did my degree + masters + PGCE at Russel group unis. Thus far I have applied to 3 schools and have:1 rejection, 1 ongoing and 1 offer.

[expatscot]

Firstly - 2 hits out of 3 applications with 2 years experience is actually pretty good going.

Could you try to negotiate on the offer you have? If you're a shortage subject, you could try going back to them with some details of the potential offer from your first choice school (which presumably includes housing) and see what they say. Best case is it buys you some time until after your interview, worst case is it gets withdrawn (though being in a shortage subject I think they might be able to negotiate a bit.)

Being at a tier 2 school shouldn't impact on your future route to a tier 1 - in fact, some look at this as effectively "doing your time" so you would then have the IB experience you have. You do have an interview from a first choice school, so you at least have that boost.

Final thought - could you consider holding off a year? Most tier 1s seem to be recruiting in the November - January period and the bulk of it is over by now. You might have better luck trying to strike early with applications in the 2018/19 round than now.

[eion_padraig]

@expatscot's advice is quite good, though I'm not sure I'd advise holding off another year unless you're pretty happy where you are at and don't mind holding for a year.

Some schools have set pay schedules and won't move on that point. But some have wiggle room. I'd say more establish schools and certainly what people consider higher tier schools do have set pay scales so if you take the offer at the first place, it's not going to impact what you earn later if you're able to move to a better place. Salaries are much more tied to local economies that to some overall notion of pay.

How much more time do you need to hear from the first school? If it's less than a week, you may be able to ask for an extension. They may give it to you and they may not. I think the school is far more likely to say "No, we really need to know by X date" than "Sorry, we're rescinding the offer because you want to consider X school." And they may just give you the time.

Two hits out of 3 is a great response rate especially with only 2 years teaching, but you seem to have a good background and the experience people want. If you're a single teacher with no dependents you're in a very strong position.

Eion

[GLOBAL_TEACHER]

Take the Bangkok job - you lack experience and need to gain that. Bangkok is a great place to live.

[shadowjack]

You check a fair number of boxes.

1. Russel Group. Carries weight amongst British Schools. Most others won't know what a Russel Group is... ;-0

2. Taught both GCSE (I am thinking, rather than IGCSE) AND IB, which can be translated into A level, if need be.

3. Taught at a UK private school (public, OK...public...) rather than some faceless academy, foundation school, grammar school, etc...

4. Shortage subject


If you have an offer from school A, see how much time you can string them out to... and wait for B. If B is a good school, thought, they are going to want to do a couple of interviews - it isn't as timely as you think.

But, Bangkok isn't a bad place to be.... and 95K baht (what are taxes on that?) is 2000 pounds a month. What else would you be paying for? Make a budget and see how it works out, then make a choice...

[secondplace]

I think you could ask for more time and see what they say, bearing in mind they may say no.

I wouldn't recommend negotiating as I would suggest that any decent school would, and should, stick to their offer as it is consistent with their package and policies. You could argue 'nothing ventured, nothing gained' but you also run the risk of annoying the school.

[brillo]

Hi everyone! Thank you so much for your advice, I'm pretty sure that I've come to a decision now.

I think I'll ask for more time but say no to the Bangkok offer if they push, as the other school's interviews aren't until mid feb (it's the face to face ones so they're coming to London.) It's a school/city that I saw myself working in after a few years on the international circuit so if I could jump straight to there then I feel as though it would be a few years saved.

I know that I probably won't get it, but having read what you guys have written I'm hoping that I could manage another 2nd tier school in BKK later in the year (thank you for the confidence boost!). If I don't get that, another year in the UK won't kill me.

Also I forgot to mention this and it's actually a pretty big reason for me not wanting to take the job: the Bangkok school position is only teaching IGCSE. They do IB but I guess another teacher has that wrapped up as when I asked at interview they said there was the 'possibility' of doing some...I don't really want to risk them not letting me teach it only for other schools to be wary about hiring me as I won't have any recent 6th form experience.

The 93k THB would be taxed at 20% and they only give an 8% gratuity at the end of the 2 years so I'll have to be saving for my pension etc. as I go along. Rent in BKK is NOWHERE near as cheap as I thought it would be, you can easily spend £500 on a studio without utilities. The baht is also pretty strong against the pound at the moment. Ultimately, I think I'd actually save less out there than I do here.

Thank you again for all your advice, it has been extremely useful and has helped me come to a decision. I'm pleased to hear that 2 hits/3 isn't bad as in the UK I'd never really had a no (says FAR more about teaching conditions in British schools than it does about me) and the application to the place I have an offer from was actually a knee jerk reaction to getting a rejection...

P.S. shadowjack, it was IGCSE! My school did IGCSE for sciences, I also taught A level alongside IB, only 2 of us in the dept had a degree in the subject so ended up having to do most of the 6th form stuff.

[shadowjack]

brillo, crazy on the IGCSE. What was it about the GCSE's your school didn't like? As to not doing IB - IB will open more doors in the future, so if you can teach British system AND IB DP, you are more marketable when you want to go places...

[brillo]

I don't know, a lot of British independent schools do it now, apparently it looks better? I prefer the IGCSE course so I was happy with the decision.

Yeah, thats why I think I may hold out for a school that lets me do 6th Form, IB or A level.

[Psychometrika]

shadowjack wrote:
> brillo, crazy on the IGCSE. What was it about the GCSE's your school didn't
> like? As to not doing IB - IB will open more doors in the future, so if you
> can teach British system AND IB DP, you are more marketable when you want
> to go places...

Semi-Related Question - How difficult is it to get a job at a British school as an American with no prior experience with IGCSE? I teach High School math, and have experience with US curriculum and AP/IB, but was wondering if it would be worth applying to British Schools.

[shadowjack]

Psychometrica - no percentages. IB style grading, but predicted grades and value added are Queen in the government schools in the UK. People do make the transition (I did), but many don't. You will never know if you don't apply!

[OzGrad]

Not sure how cheap you thought the rent would be, but excellent value rent in Bangkok is one of the great drawcards.

Not to mention you can have a delicious meal for a couple of dollars.

OG

[expatscot]

Psychometrica - do you mean British Schools in the international sense, or schools in the UK? If it's the former, then probably quite easy - especially if you have experience teaching IB. If it's the latter, then it's probably fairly straightforward in England and Wales, but less so in Scotland because of the different qualification process (though not completely impossible.)

[Psychometrika]

expatscot wrote:
> Psychometrica - do you mean British Schools in the international sense, or
> schools in the UK? If it's the former, then probably quite easy -
> especially if you have experience teaching IB. If it's the latter, then
> it's probably fairly straightforward in England and Wales, but less so in
> Scotland because of the different qualification process (though not
> completely impossible.)

Thanks for the replies. Yes, I meant at British international schools. My uneducated guess is that upper level maths might be a bit more portable than other subjects (relative shortages and fewer differences in curriculum), but am really not sure.

[PsyGuy]

Whats the rest of the OSH package? If its just an LH package meaning salary, some insurance and maybe a visa and possibly a flight than Baht¥90K after taxes is really about Baht¥60K which is at the bottom of the third tier. Which means its most likely a third tier IS.

Third round interviews are pretty deep into the process. Can you ask how many competing candidates it is, and if its only a couple than Id wait it out if I had to choose. If they wont comment or after explaining your situation they wont accelerate the process, than its likely your not the candidate. Second place is just the first loser, there is no offer for the runner up.

Second tier ISs arent an issue and reputable third tier ISs arent a problem either. Only the really bad train wreck ISs can be problematic. Your prior package wont impact your future package, there is some variability in an OSH packages but prior package benefits arent a factor.

Its the end of the peak recruiting cycle but its not anywhere close to the end.

Being a Russel Group graduate doesnt mean anything in IE, if you didnt go to OxBridge or MAYBE at some specific BSs LSE, ICL and UCL than it doesnt matter. No one cares if you went to Nottingham, etc. or one of the other "Old School" Unis

I would agree with the prior contributes that 2 interests out of 3 applications is a pretty strong hit rate. It might be though that what it really means is you end up with 2 rejections and an offer from one really low tier IS.

I disagree with @expatscot, your not gaining anything by staying in the UK DE system past two years unless their is some leadership or TLR opportunity for you. Getting into IE sooner as opposed to later is the next best step.

I disagree with @eion_padraig , even ISs with a fixed salary scale and benefits package have flexibility in how those scales and packages are interpreted. Step 2 on an ISs scale is step 2, you can usually successfully negotiate more coin just because thats what you want. What you can do is present the position that X achievement or accomplishment is worth an increase in step on the salary scale.

You can ask for more time and a week wouldnt be wholly unreasonable, you can than stretch out the returning of the contract for a few days more, but they may just as easily say no and rescind the offer. However, you can just accept the BKK offer and then wait to see if you get the 1st tier IS. Even if your repped by a premium agency and both ISs are, you dont need to make contact with the preferred IS, your just waiting on a third interview, and if they say no to the third round interview or after than you still have the BKK IS as a safety appointment. If the preferred IS makes an appointment just pull a fade and ignore the BKK IS.

@SJ

IGCSEs are easier thus scoring higher than GCSEs. IGCSEs were meant for international/ non-native English speakers. Once you incorporate the Language challenge even subjects like maths and science are easier, since the vocabulary requirement is lower, thus producing better marks for the tables.

@Psychometrika

Do you mean a IS BS or a DS BS (in the UK/England)? If the former not having understanding of the UK NC is going to be an issue compared to other candidates (you can apply for QTS faily easily), however at SLL all the NCs, EB, and IB are highly congruent. If you mean the latter, than it depends on your teaching area and demand, if in high needs area youd have a very high probability of success BUT you would most likely have to be available for an in person F2F interview.