C'mon everybody. This "exodus" is just like going to the fair one year and there are a TON of jobs posted for your teaching area. Was there an "exodus"? Or a school had 40 teachers come in to start up and 18 are leaving after working their butts off to get the school going. Is that an "exodus"? (after all, 22 teachers stayed, which tells me the school wasn't that bad, but it would work you hard in start up mode).
Then you go the next year and there are hardly ANY jobs in your teaching area. And that school with 18 openings last year? 6 this year.
In other words...there is a cycle to international teaching with no real rhyme or reason. For whatever reason, there are vacancies in Germany. That has no bearing on whether there will be vacancies next year, and you might at well try to - that as to - why there were so many primary art openings last year (for example), and none this year...
Exodus from Germany
Re: Exodus from Germany
TP
All the major schools are concentrated in big cities, where the links between industry and education can't be ruled out. You'd wait a couple of years and you'll see first hand how high the rents have gone up (in many places, they already did). Being at a tier 1 school, your magical figure of 35% might make sense. What about those folks making 2K net at relatively smaller schools? You'd revisit your math.
All the major schools are concentrated in big cities, where the links between industry and education can't be ruled out. You'd wait a couple of years and you'll see first hand how high the rents have gone up (in many places, they already did). Being at a tier 1 school, your magical figure of 35% might make sense. What about those folks making 2K net at relatively smaller schools? You'd revisit your math.
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Exodus from Germany
Crikey. We are so off topic, but my point is that in the major cities, there is MORE THAN ONE INDUSTRY. It would take a HUGE, probably global, change to more than one industry for it to impact housing prices in most cities in Germany. Housing prices are far more likely to be influenced locally. Brexit might have an effect on housing prices in the UK, but it is unlikely to significantly impact them in the rest of Europe. The exception might be Frankfurt, where there is less diversity of industry as it is a financial hub, but even there the impact is expected to be and has so far largely been commercial rent rather than housing.
The 35% estimate is not based off of my current school. This is pretty much across the board. Those lower paying schools are in places with lower rent for the most part. Even in the big cities it isn't hard to meet that 35% mark. However, it becomes hard when you decide you need four bedrooms, a yard, and near a train line. The problem is that so many ITs, after having worked in places where housing is a sweet deal and where teachers live like kings compared to locals, don't actually like integrating into the local community where their salaries and housing options are in line with the local communities. Those are the teachers that complain about housing.
The 35% estimate is not based off of my current school. This is pretty much across the board. Those lower paying schools are in places with lower rent for the most part. Even in the big cities it isn't hard to meet that 35% mark. However, it becomes hard when you decide you need four bedrooms, a yard, and near a train line. The problem is that so many ITs, after having worked in places where housing is a sweet deal and where teachers live like kings compared to locals, don't actually like integrating into the local community where their salaries and housing options are in line with the local communities. Those are the teachers that complain about housing.
Discussion
@Thames Pirate
Theres nothing changed about my position or what I "meant", 50% is half.
€2K is not something simple, thats a couple months net discretionary coin.
I stated half/50% based on the average of IE in Germany, your 35% I agree with @fine dude is maybe closer to first tier ISs, but they tend to spend more as well so again half.
The whole world doesnt revolve around the UK but its not a trivial player in what happens in the world.
I strongly disagree that most people know what they are getting into, some of them do, but many face surprises.
A global change like.... Brexit?
@fine dude
Brexit hasnt been executed yet, the crown isnt suddenly expelling EU nationals nor their business enterprises persona non grata. We might get there but the more I look at it, Brexit is going to be more a symbolic withdrawal from the Eu and less a practical one.
BKK is one IS in thousands of ISs. For the picture to be as dire as Im interpreting your position to be, than Berlin/Germany has to be the next UK in the world of IE, it might be in whole, but its more likely that its only partially influential. Its possible that Germany and its IS upstarts are in the right place and the right time, Im just not to the point of putting coin on it yet.
@SJ
Well there is a rhyme and reason (mostly those Art ITs hired last year are still under contract this year and those ISs thus dont need as many art ITs).
Theres nothing changed about my position or what I "meant", 50% is half.
€2K is not something simple, thats a couple months net discretionary coin.
I stated half/50% based on the average of IE in Germany, your 35% I agree with @fine dude is maybe closer to first tier ISs, but they tend to spend more as well so again half.
The whole world doesnt revolve around the UK but its not a trivial player in what happens in the world.
I strongly disagree that most people know what they are getting into, some of them do, but many face surprises.
A global change like.... Brexit?
@fine dude
Brexit hasnt been executed yet, the crown isnt suddenly expelling EU nationals nor their business enterprises persona non grata. We might get there but the more I look at it, Brexit is going to be more a symbolic withdrawal from the Eu and less a practical one.
BKK is one IS in thousands of ISs. For the picture to be as dire as Im interpreting your position to be, than Berlin/Germany has to be the next UK in the world of IE, it might be in whole, but its more likely that its only partially influential. Its possible that Germany and its IS upstarts are in the right place and the right time, Im just not to the point of putting coin on it yet.
@SJ
Well there is a rhyme and reason (mostly those Art ITs hired last year are still under contract this year and those ISs thus dont need as many art ITs).
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shadowjack
- Posts: 2140
- Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:49 am
Re: Exodus from Germany
@PG - but there is no guarantee that the next year after that there will be a glut of art positions again... it all depends on a myriad of factors. Thus saying there is a huge "exodus" of art teachers as if conditions in one place is driving it is a bit misleading...
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Exodus from Germany
Yes, deposits and furnishing are expensive, but schools often give relocation allowances AND you can write it off your taxes so it winds up not being that much. If you don't have 5K in the bank and can't figure out that moving is expensive, well, life is probably a challenge for you. Newsflash: Any time housing is not provided, you should count on these costs. Furnishing, deposits, and hookup fees are not unique to any one location or even several--they are pretty standard costs of relocating. Obviously when school housing is provided these are lower or covered, but moving costs money. After that, most people are still only spending about 35% on housing (with utilities). Sure, you CAN spend more--you also CAN spend less. This is true at all tiers.
I get that Brexit is a global event, but it is not one that impacts a particular industry, nor does it have such an effect that it will change housing prices in Germany. I was thinking along the lines of North Sea oil running out and the local industry shutting down--which would change housing prices in areas like Aberdeen and coastal Norway. German cities are sufficiently diversified and thus insulated from Brexit, which will be, as you say, in many ways symbolic and certainly not the event that your response to me (rather than to fine dude) implies.
Look, WE is not for everyone; there is no living like a king simply for being a westerner, and teachers live like locals economically. Sure, there are those who don't do their research, and yes, housing here is more expensive than in many places. But to blame this on a higher number of jobs is grasping at straws. Again, most people know what they are getting into, and those that don't leave--that isn't new this year, though. That's how it has always been!
We all know hiring comes in waves. Sometimes a bunch of new schools factor in (possible in Germany), and sometimes events at a particular school are the reason (Latvia comes to mind this year). And sometimes it's just a weird blip.
I get that Brexit is a global event, but it is not one that impacts a particular industry, nor does it have such an effect that it will change housing prices in Germany. I was thinking along the lines of North Sea oil running out and the local industry shutting down--which would change housing prices in areas like Aberdeen and coastal Norway. German cities are sufficiently diversified and thus insulated from Brexit, which will be, as you say, in many ways symbolic and certainly not the event that your response to me (rather than to fine dude) implies.
Look, WE is not for everyone; there is no living like a king simply for being a westerner, and teachers live like locals economically. Sure, there are those who don't do their research, and yes, housing here is more expensive than in many places. But to blame this on a higher number of jobs is grasping at straws. Again, most people know what they are getting into, and those that don't leave--that isn't new this year, though. That's how it has always been!
We all know hiring comes in waves. Sometimes a bunch of new schools factor in (possible in Germany), and sometimes events at a particular school are the reason (Latvia comes to mind this year). And sometimes it's just a weird blip.
Re: Exodus from Germany
My school in Germany did not give any relocation allowance (although they did offer some shipping). Deposits and furnishing are not tax deductible, I'm afraid (I tried). Shipping costs are, however. Most teachers I know who came in spent around 8-10k on housing deposits, furnishings, etc.
Reply
@SJ
The future doesnt have guarantees thats part of being the future. Yes there are a myriad of factors some less and some more than others, but there are factors and that is the rhyme and the reason. It is rarely a causal relationship that X caused the Y in IE, but dismissing the events because of the complexity of the factors or ignorance of them is also misleading.
@Thames Pirate
Thats bunk. ISs usually dont give relocation allowances aside from flights in the WE and even the ones that do arent giving you enough to supplement deposits and furnishings (not even furnishings). Its utter nonsense that you can write off personal furnishings from your taxes.
They arent unique to any one location but are FAR more predominant in the EU.
Housing costs are still about 50% of salary on average.
Its arguable that Brexit will impact all industry sectors including IE.
I believe Brexit will be mostly symbolic but if wrong and the repercussions are actually realized than its going to impact IE, including Germany.
Again some ITs know what they are getting into, not most. Yeah its not for everyone, but lets just face it youre a euro-phile, every positive about the WE is super awesome and the negatives you just dismiss as trivial or the problems of "other ITs".
The future doesnt have guarantees thats part of being the future. Yes there are a myriad of factors some less and some more than others, but there are factors and that is the rhyme and the reason. It is rarely a causal relationship that X caused the Y in IE, but dismissing the events because of the complexity of the factors or ignorance of them is also misleading.
@Thames Pirate
Thats bunk. ISs usually dont give relocation allowances aside from flights in the WE and even the ones that do arent giving you enough to supplement deposits and furnishings (not even furnishings). Its utter nonsense that you can write off personal furnishings from your taxes.
They arent unique to any one location but are FAR more predominant in the EU.
Housing costs are still about 50% of salary on average.
Its arguable that Brexit will impact all industry sectors including IE.
I believe Brexit will be mostly symbolic but if wrong and the repercussions are actually realized than its going to impact IE, including Germany.
Again some ITs know what they are getting into, not most. Yeah its not for everyone, but lets just face it youre a euro-phile, every positive about the WE is super awesome and the negatives you just dismiss as trivial or the problems of "other ITs".
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Exodus from Germany
Still wrong. Still about 35%.
No, furnishings are not written off, but relocation costs are--and that savings can be applied. And schools often DO give relocation assistance--perhaps not all schools, but many. I have heard of it coming in reimbursements for expenses, shipping costs, assistance with deposits (spreading that out over several months' salary deductions as an interest free loan), cash, etc. Sometimes you do have to ask for it. Some schools have assistance with furnishings through things like having outgoing teachers selling stuff to incoming or even furniture rentals. Furnished apartments can also be had. My experience, however, is that schools sometimes don't advertise these forms of assistance in order to save money. Again, it does take some research and some cash outlay as any relocation does, but even with that initial outlay 50% is high. Also, why would people expect a school to buy their furniture? If you know housing is not provided, why wouldn't you factor in the cost of either shipping or buying furniture--the latter generally being covered by schools and being a tax write off?
Also, yes, Brexit might affect IE, but not the local housing market. We ITs and even our students' families are not the driving factors in the housing market.
I am not dismissing the fact that housing in WE is expensive. I am dismissing it as the cause for the higher than average number of jobs in Germany this year. The proportion of naive ITs who leave because it isn't their cup of tea is not somehow different than in other years.
No, furnishings are not written off, but relocation costs are--and that savings can be applied. And schools often DO give relocation assistance--perhaps not all schools, but many. I have heard of it coming in reimbursements for expenses, shipping costs, assistance with deposits (spreading that out over several months' salary deductions as an interest free loan), cash, etc. Sometimes you do have to ask for it. Some schools have assistance with furnishings through things like having outgoing teachers selling stuff to incoming or even furniture rentals. Furnished apartments can also be had. My experience, however, is that schools sometimes don't advertise these forms of assistance in order to save money. Again, it does take some research and some cash outlay as any relocation does, but even with that initial outlay 50% is high. Also, why would people expect a school to buy their furniture? If you know housing is not provided, why wouldn't you factor in the cost of either shipping or buying furniture--the latter generally being covered by schools and being a tax write off?
Also, yes, Brexit might affect IE, but not the local housing market. We ITs and even our students' families are not the driving factors in the housing market.
I am not dismissing the fact that housing in WE is expensive. I am dismissing it as the cause for the higher than average number of jobs in Germany this year. The proportion of naive ITs who leave because it isn't their cup of tea is not somehow different than in other years.
Re: Exodus from Germany
"naive ITs" - seriously!
Folks who left Europe have only prospered and got great PD to become true 21st century educators as opposed to getting stuck in the union-infested schools with 19th century pedagogical practices and equally backward compensation.
Folks who left Europe have only prospered and got great PD to become true 21st century educators as opposed to getting stuck in the union-infested schools with 19th century pedagogical practices and equally backward compensation.
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Exodus from Germany
I suppose that depends on the school. Naive is coming to Europe and expecting to have the far above average salaries and matching housing rather than living like a local. The rest is up to the school and what a person makes of living in Europe. Plenty of great schools and plenty of bad ones in Europe--same as in Asia. Any place can be great or awful depending on the people, the school, etc. WE isn't for everyone, just like any other place isn't for everyone.
Naive just means not doing your research and coming in on assumptions and dreams. The people that do that are the ones who leave based on cost of living just as the ones who do that in other places leave because of security, pollution, noise, weather, cost of food, or anything else that can easily be at least somewhat researched in advance. There is a portion of every staff that falls into the naive IT category--those who romanticize a place and don't realize that schools in Spain pay in sunshine rather than cash and that you can't pay bills with that, for example. Those folks either adapt or leave, and yes, that is as true in Germany as it is anywhere else.
This isn't about which place is better; there is no single right answer because we all have different priorities, values, interests, etc. Naive simply meant those who didn't do their homework. And that percentage is not going to change significantly year to year, so saying housing prices are the cause of the higher number of jobs is just not logical. More logical is simply growth--schools expanding, new schools popping up--and the random fluctuations in the IE market rather than the relative constant of expensive housing.
Naive just means not doing your research and coming in on assumptions and dreams. The people that do that are the ones who leave based on cost of living just as the ones who do that in other places leave because of security, pollution, noise, weather, cost of food, or anything else that can easily be at least somewhat researched in advance. There is a portion of every staff that falls into the naive IT category--those who romanticize a place and don't realize that schools in Spain pay in sunshine rather than cash and that you can't pay bills with that, for example. Those folks either adapt or leave, and yes, that is as true in Germany as it is anywhere else.
This isn't about which place is better; there is no single right answer because we all have different priorities, values, interests, etc. Naive simply meant those who didn't do their homework. And that percentage is not going to change significantly year to year, so saying housing prices are the cause of the higher number of jobs is just not logical. More logical is simply growth--schools expanding, new schools popping up--and the random fluctuations in the IE market rather than the relative constant of expensive housing.
Reply
@Thames Pirate
Still wrong, its 50%.
What relocation costs? You can get shipping and flights IF you incur the cost thats it. You dont get deposit of furnishings or anything else in the huge number of expenses. Youre just a europhile, everything positive about the WE is awesome and everything negative is unimportant.
Yes, Brexit can effect the local housing market even as far away as Germany. What source do you have that guarantees influence and effects in any local housing market. Youre claiming it doesnt, isnt self authenticating.
Youre dismissal of Brexit as a factor is a position, absent any evidence it is true in reality. You claim its not logical is immaterial, data matters not rhetoric.
@fine dude
Thats not entirely true, there are ISs that do PD well, and DSs that do it poorly. A lot of DTs/ITs prefer and value those 19th century meds/peds, they certainly did and do have a success story. 21C edu can just as easily mean little more than an allusion to the use of technology, which without strong integration can be technology for technology sake.
Still wrong, its 50%.
What relocation costs? You can get shipping and flights IF you incur the cost thats it. You dont get deposit of furnishings or anything else in the huge number of expenses. Youre just a europhile, everything positive about the WE is awesome and everything negative is unimportant.
Yes, Brexit can effect the local housing market even as far away as Germany. What source do you have that guarantees influence and effects in any local housing market. Youre claiming it doesnt, isnt self authenticating.
Youre dismissal of Brexit as a factor is a position, absent any evidence it is true in reality. You claim its not logical is immaterial, data matters not rhetoric.
@fine dude
Thats not entirely true, there are ISs that do PD well, and DSs that do it poorly. A lot of DTs/ITs prefer and value those 19th century meds/peds, they certainly did and do have a success story. 21C edu can just as easily mean little more than an allusion to the use of technology, which without strong integration can be technology for technology sake.