It actually isn't hard to become a DT in Germany IF you speak German. It's possible even if you don't. And yes, ISs pay about what DSs do, but that is still more than the average German makes.
Half your salary is excessive for housing. You can find cheaper in nice parts of town virtually anywhere, even in Munich and Hamburg (the expensive cities). 35% of one salary is more realistic. Depending on one's needs, cheaper can be found.
Exodus from Germany
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@Thames Pirate
Yes it is, to be fully credentialed. You can teach on what is the equivalent of a substitute/relief/supply DT by simply having a degree in the subject you teach with no professional credential (youre basically a long term contract sub/supply DT) but for a professionally credentialed DT/IT you must have 2 teaching areas as opposed to one in the US/UK requiring a minimum of 30 additional units of study.
There are also no skills based pathways like School Direct nor any assessment based pathways such as those found in UT and MA or the Assessment Only route in the UK. You arent going to get a credential in Germany by taking an exam and filling out an application.
We disagree if you really want to look at one tail 30%-35% is doable but average is 50% of salary. Depending on family size, one could spend nearly their whole salary with a large enough family.
Yes it is, to be fully credentialed. You can teach on what is the equivalent of a substitute/relief/supply DT by simply having a degree in the subject you teach with no professional credential (youre basically a long term contract sub/supply DT) but for a professionally credentialed DT/IT you must have 2 teaching areas as opposed to one in the US/UK requiring a minimum of 30 additional units of study.
There are also no skills based pathways like School Direct nor any assessment based pathways such as those found in UT and MA or the Assessment Only route in the UK. You arent going to get a credential in Germany by taking an exam and filling out an application.
We disagree if you really want to look at one tail 30%-35% is doable but average is 50% of salary. Depending on family size, one could spend nearly their whole salary with a large enough family.
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Thames Pirate
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Re: Exodus from Germany
Getting a teaching credential for Germans is hard, sure, but getting your foreign credential recognized is not (except learning German, of course). The same is true for professionals switching into teaching. It is easy to be a full teacher in Germany using most foreign credentials. The roadblock is German red tape, but for those living in Germany it's a way of life, so it isn't really an issue.
I also love that you are somehow an expert on the German housing market on top of everything else. Sorry, but your bluster does not match reality. Have you ever even lived in Germany? It is not difficult to find appropriate housing, even near the schools or in nice parts of town, at 35%. Those spending more typically have more than one income or a very specific desire or need (pets, though even that can be done in the 35% range, numerous kids with separate bedrooms, must have own yard, must be in fancy district, must be 5 minute walk to school, etc). Those who can live simply can get by with 20-25% easily enough. Obviously one COULD spend much more or even much less, but in general 35% is a reasonable expectation and probably close to what most people spend.
I also love that you are somehow an expert on the German housing market on top of everything else. Sorry, but your bluster does not match reality. Have you ever even lived in Germany? It is not difficult to find appropriate housing, even near the schools or in nice parts of town, at 35%. Those spending more typically have more than one income or a very specific desire or need (pets, though even that can be done in the 35% range, numerous kids with separate bedrooms, must have own yard, must be in fancy district, must be 5 minute walk to school, etc). Those who can live simply can get by with 20-25% easily enough. Obviously one COULD spend much more or even much less, but in general 35% is a reasonable expectation and probably close to what most people spend.
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@Thames Pirate
My previous post stated "though its harder to enter the teaching field in Germany than it is in some western regions" ENTERING not transferring or migrating etc.. I stated nothing about difficulty with other western credentials being recognized.
Its not bluster when its true or it disagrees with @Thames Pirate. My experience is ITs end up spending about half their comp on housing costs (including basic utilities such as water, electricity, etc.).
My previous post stated "though its harder to enter the teaching field in Germany than it is in some western regions" ENTERING not transferring or migrating etc.. I stated nothing about difficulty with other western credentials being recognized.
Its not bluster when its true or it disagrees with @Thames Pirate. My experience is ITs end up spending about half their comp on housing costs (including basic utilities such as water, electricity, etc.).
Re: Exodus from Germany
where i am (country bordering germany) it's about 1/3 of one person's salary for rent, and a little more when factoring in utilities. you can find cheaper for sure, but - not sure how it works in germany - then you have to pony up 3-4 months rent for security deposit. i think if you're planning on coming to europe, you really need to have a bit of savings and money banked to enjoy it and appreciate it. that's only my opinion. i do love it here however, and there is a lot to be said for the trade-offs.
v.
v.
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Thames Pirate
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Re: Exodus from Germany
Most places in Germany do require a 3 month deposit, and when you move out it can take awhile to get it back. So yes, it is a pain, and yes, you need the up front cash. After that, though, you should be able to live comfortably and still travel (though perhaps not save much depending on lifestyle) on one salary for a single or even with a trailing spouse. It's the more than one dependent thing that starts to get more expensive. We have been able to save some money pretty easily and still travel and go out, etc.--not tons, but some.
Sounds like your country is pretty similar.
Sounds like your country is pretty similar.
Re: Exodus from Germany
2-3 months rent is normal here. Also, when you move into a place, it's usually completely unfurnished (they even take the lightbulbs out). Sometimes the kitchen is furnished, but not always.
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Thames Pirate
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Re: Exodus from Germany
I love that when several people give better information than PG that contradicts his claims, he says that what he really meant was . . . .
You can get furnished or unfurnished places in Germany just like anywhere, though unfurnished is more common. It used to be that kitchens were not included, though that is gradually changing. So you're hit or miss on kitchens, light fixtures, etc. but you can find something with a kitchen relatively easily.
Furnishing an apartment isn't more than 2K or so, and that initial outlay is not factored into the housing costs as a percentage of income by any normal person.
The 35% is with utilities.
You can get furnished or unfurnished places in Germany just like anywhere, though unfurnished is more common. It used to be that kitchens were not included, though that is gradually changing. So you're hit or miss on kitchens, light fixtures, etc. but you can find something with a kitchen relatively easily.
Furnishing an apartment isn't more than 2K or so, and that initial outlay is not factored into the housing costs as a percentage of income by any normal person.
The 35% is with utilities.
Re: Exodus from Germany
Post-Brexit, the housing demand in Germany would become a lot worse if companies actually move shop from London. The enrollment might increase and schools might rejoice, but without a housing allowance and no big hike in salaries, ITs living in /relocating to Germany will be expected to pay a lot more for their rent.
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Thames Pirate
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Re: Exodus from Germany
Pretty speculative . . . . remember that the world does not revolve around ISs, Brexit, or anything else.
Re: Exodus from Germany
Yes, it does. Ask all the teachers fired when the top school in BKK lost its students as their parents were laid off by a major oil firm. Your fellow Berliners will tell you how much the rents have gone up as Germany ups its start-up game.
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Thames Pirate
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Re: Exodus from Germany
Very few of the schools in Germany are dependent on a single entity or corporation. Heck, in the larger cities it isn't even a single industry. I get that many schools are more or less dependent on a single company, but few in Germany are.
Yes, Berlin rents have gone up, but this has more to do with a slowdown in construction and especially a population boom, primarily through immigrants. Yet it still ranks below Munich, Hamburg, and Frankfurt in terms of both price per square meter and percentage of income spent on rent (note that all four cities rank below 29%). Blaming changes in prices that have already occurred over the last decade on Brexit, which hasn't even been finalized and was only voted on 19 months ago is pretty much nonsense.
I think we can agree that the price of housing in most WE cities is pretty high compared to SE Asia, for example. It will take up more of your salary. I think we can reasonably say that while people CAN always pay more or less, 35% is a reasonable expectation.
More importantly in the context of this thread, this is unlikely to be the reason for the number of openings since, again, most people are at least somewhat aware of the costs before they arrive. Of course there are people who aren't, but I can't imagine that number being significantly different from previous years.
Yes, Berlin rents have gone up, but this has more to do with a slowdown in construction and especially a population boom, primarily through immigrants. Yet it still ranks below Munich, Hamburg, and Frankfurt in terms of both price per square meter and percentage of income spent on rent (note that all four cities rank below 29%). Blaming changes in prices that have already occurred over the last decade on Brexit, which hasn't even been finalized and was only voted on 19 months ago is pretty much nonsense.
I think we can agree that the price of housing in most WE cities is pretty high compared to SE Asia, for example. It will take up more of your salary. I think we can reasonably say that while people CAN always pay more or less, 35% is a reasonable expectation.
More importantly in the context of this thread, this is unlikely to be the reason for the number of openings since, again, most people are at least somewhat aware of the costs before they arrive. Of course there are people who aren't, but I can't imagine that number being significantly different from previous years.