Hi all,
I've been getting interest and offers from some national schools in different places, and I wondered how bad is it for your career to take a job at a good national school? Will the international school community disown you or look down on your experience somehow?
Thanks!
downsides of working at national schools?
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YoPreachTeach
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:43 pm
Response
What do you mean by "national school"?
Part of the problem is what do we mean by an IS and what is IE (and this has been written about extensively). What is an IS is a very flexible definition. There are a lot of ISs that are little more than DSs (independent/private) that employ westerners.
If by "national school" you mean public/maintained DSs (regulated) or municipal DSs (publicly funded in part or in whole but less regulated) than it depends on a couple factors: Environment, Selectivity and Governance. There are a number of subordinate factors for each but essentially the more a DS resembles an IS the more selective/exclusive it is and the more its internally and independently governed/managed the greater IE utility it has.
Most of it is moot though, IE and DE are rated the same for salary. As long as an IT has some experience in IE they have IE experience. If an IS/DS provides and adheres to strong professional practices than DS or IS doesnt matter. There are good DSs that make for a stronger candidate than experience from really poor ISs.
How long you spend out of IE matters the most. There will be recruiters and leadership and ownership that will consider your IE experience dated if you spend too long out of IE. How long that is varies. You can very likely spend a couple years without and perceptual effects (as long as you have a story for the experience). After two years and as you pass 5 years, your likely to be seen as having been out of the field and out of touch with IE.
Part of the problem is what do we mean by an IS and what is IE (and this has been written about extensively). What is an IS is a very flexible definition. There are a lot of ISs that are little more than DSs (independent/private) that employ westerners.
If by "national school" you mean public/maintained DSs (regulated) or municipal DSs (publicly funded in part or in whole but less regulated) than it depends on a couple factors: Environment, Selectivity and Governance. There are a number of subordinate factors for each but essentially the more a DS resembles an IS the more selective/exclusive it is and the more its internally and independently governed/managed the greater IE utility it has.
Most of it is moot though, IE and DE are rated the same for salary. As long as an IT has some experience in IE they have IE experience. If an IS/DS provides and adheres to strong professional practices than DS or IS doesnt matter. There are good DSs that make for a stronger candidate than experience from really poor ISs.
How long you spend out of IE matters the most. There will be recruiters and leadership and ownership that will consider your IE experience dated if you spend too long out of IE. How long that is varies. You can very likely spend a couple years without and perceptual effects (as long as you have a story for the experience). After two years and as you pass 5 years, your likely to be seen as having been out of the field and out of touch with IE.
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YoPreachTeach
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:43 pm
Re: downsides of working at national schools?
Thanks for your reply. If the student body is say 95% local even if they teach IB they wouldn't be considered international , is what I'm understanding you wrote.
So , that could jeopardize my experience as an International school teacher if I stayed there over 2 years.
Thanks for your time . :)
So , that could jeopardize my experience as an International school teacher if I stayed there over 2 years.
Thanks for your time . :)
Re: downsides of working at national schools?
@YoPreachTeach "If the student body is say 95% local even if they teach IB they wouldn't be considered international , is what I'm understanding you wrote. So, that could jeopardize my experience as an International school teacher if I stayed there over 2 years."
Well I'm not sure that's what Dave said, but if it is, let's just assume he "misspoke" himself.
There are dozens of arid doctoral dissertations on the subject of what are the defining characteristics of an international school, but here are the usual culprits:
An international student body
An international faculty
An international curriculum
An internationally minded philosophy
One of the established United World Colleges (Atlantic or Pearson for example) would hit the 100% score on every line, but beyond that there are many so-called international schools that would struggle to match every single criterion. If a predominantly local student body means a veto, then there are scarcely any international schools in South and Central America and far fewer international schools in the Middle East. Chadwick, Dwight, Branksome Hall and North London Collegiate in South Korea would also fall foul of this rule, and yet all of these are plainly "international schools".
In short, going to an international school with a large local population is by no means necessarily a "bad thing", and it would certainly not be a bar to employment in other international schools later in your career.
Well I'm not sure that's what Dave said, but if it is, let's just assume he "misspoke" himself.
There are dozens of arid doctoral dissertations on the subject of what are the defining characteristics of an international school, but here are the usual culprits:
An international student body
An international faculty
An international curriculum
An internationally minded philosophy
One of the established United World Colleges (Atlantic or Pearson for example) would hit the 100% score on every line, but beyond that there are many so-called international schools that would struggle to match every single criterion. If a predominantly local student body means a veto, then there are scarcely any international schools in South and Central America and far fewer international schools in the Middle East. Chadwick, Dwight, Branksome Hall and North London Collegiate in South Korea would also fall foul of this rule, and yet all of these are plainly "international schools".
In short, going to an international school with a large local population is by no means necessarily a "bad thing", and it would certainly not be a bar to employment in other international schools later in your career.
Reply
@YoPreachTeach
Yes and No. "No", 95% local host national student population would describe a lot of legitimate IS, but "Yes" it would effect your marketability after two years for a different though relatable cause. A significant majority of ISs with a 95% local population are highly likely to be lower tier IS, and after two years the issue becomes "why arent you moving onward and upward?" To give you an example you could stay at Eaton in England with is a national DS for any length of time and easily find yourself marketable at high tier ISs (BSs) in IE.
Does IB make an institution "International", is a much more difficult question to answer. Certainly there are classical IBWSs that are very 'global', there are also IB DSs/ISs that are very insular and have pay little more than lip service to internationalism.
Those latter ISs would negatively effect your marketability, but IB experience is valuable enough that youd still improve your utility even at a very poor "national" DS/IS. After two years though, the question is going to be why didnt you take the experience and move on?
None of those research projects and publications @Walter refers to mean anything.
First, and most importantly those criteria are nothing more than one authors or organizations operational definitions. An IS isnt "X" because some writer lists some number of factors and variables and their meaning as they dictate them by virture of having put them to paper (or the digital equivalent). They are not self authenticating nor are they some expression of natural phenomenon. They are at best an expression of an individual ideology and aspirational wish list.
Second, what is an "international student body"? Any definition is arbitrary. Is is westerners and locals? Is it multiple nationalities? How many, what proportion, what ratios or percentages? Why is this a necessity. Can a homogeneous group of studnts as a whole IS dedicate themselves to international mindedness, and is that less "international" because someone deems it to be?
Third, similar to above whats an "international faculty"? Is a couple of western ITs mean the faculty is international (to that matter is one foreign faculty member international)? Are westerners even necessary, If a small percentage of an ISs faculty is Filipino the rest locals and a couple of EE ITs who teach sports is that an international faculty? Is an all western faculty even one thats heterogeneously comprised of CAN, AUS, US, UK faculty international or just first world representation? If the faculty were all white, and English and the IS paid £70K/yr and all the students were EU (and also mostly white) would anyone recruiting really question if the IS was international beyond some social desirability not to look like a racist?
Fourth, whats an international curriculum, Western, European, lost of ISs offer nothing more than a regional diploma. Whats so "international" about western programs and curriculum. Is a Korean IS in LOS or a Chinese IS is SG any less international if they dont offer A*/AP/IB? Why because some leadership or consultant with the PTC or ISC deems it so?
Fifth, "International Minded Philosophy" (LOL). Is that the philosophy the smiling leaders at such ISs cite verse for verse from their flyer and brochure or other advertising/marketing literature because ownership and leadership and some consultants sat in a conference room to a catered lunch and claim their international because they include and repeat the word a couple of times in some statement of ethos/philosophy/mission. Is it the wishful thinking and imagination of executive leadership still clinging to some fantasy from long ago regarding the equality of the Socratic method as they watch cat videos and spin in their chairs while the parents who could not care less about anything international except getting their child into some prestigious elite Uni. Is it the delusion than when "philosophy" hits the ledger of cold hard uncompromising coin that values somehow win that battle, in what world is that ever true (except for the self appreciating claims of the leadership posts to come that claim "Ive been an admin/lead for X years at Y ISs and I always do the right thing, even when its hard to do so". Quick someone call Diogenes if he hasnt been struck by Zeuss lightning bolt).
@Walter and I strongly disagree on what ISs reach what marks at anytime if ever. I wouldnt use those ISs as examples.
Not that I claimed or even inferred that this 95% local student population was true.
@Walter
Keep working on that reading fluency.
Yes and No. "No", 95% local host national student population would describe a lot of legitimate IS, but "Yes" it would effect your marketability after two years for a different though relatable cause. A significant majority of ISs with a 95% local population are highly likely to be lower tier IS, and after two years the issue becomes "why arent you moving onward and upward?" To give you an example you could stay at Eaton in England with is a national DS for any length of time and easily find yourself marketable at high tier ISs (BSs) in IE.
Does IB make an institution "International", is a much more difficult question to answer. Certainly there are classical IBWSs that are very 'global', there are also IB DSs/ISs that are very insular and have pay little more than lip service to internationalism.
Those latter ISs would negatively effect your marketability, but IB experience is valuable enough that youd still improve your utility even at a very poor "national" DS/IS. After two years though, the question is going to be why didnt you take the experience and move on?
None of those research projects and publications @Walter refers to mean anything.
First, and most importantly those criteria are nothing more than one authors or organizations operational definitions. An IS isnt "X" because some writer lists some number of factors and variables and their meaning as they dictate them by virture of having put them to paper (or the digital equivalent). They are not self authenticating nor are they some expression of natural phenomenon. They are at best an expression of an individual ideology and aspirational wish list.
Second, what is an "international student body"? Any definition is arbitrary. Is is westerners and locals? Is it multiple nationalities? How many, what proportion, what ratios or percentages? Why is this a necessity. Can a homogeneous group of studnts as a whole IS dedicate themselves to international mindedness, and is that less "international" because someone deems it to be?
Third, similar to above whats an "international faculty"? Is a couple of western ITs mean the faculty is international (to that matter is one foreign faculty member international)? Are westerners even necessary, If a small percentage of an ISs faculty is Filipino the rest locals and a couple of EE ITs who teach sports is that an international faculty? Is an all western faculty even one thats heterogeneously comprised of CAN, AUS, US, UK faculty international or just first world representation? If the faculty were all white, and English and the IS paid £70K/yr and all the students were EU (and also mostly white) would anyone recruiting really question if the IS was international beyond some social desirability not to look like a racist?
Fourth, whats an international curriculum, Western, European, lost of ISs offer nothing more than a regional diploma. Whats so "international" about western programs and curriculum. Is a Korean IS in LOS or a Chinese IS is SG any less international if they dont offer A*/AP/IB? Why because some leadership or consultant with the PTC or ISC deems it so?
Fifth, "International Minded Philosophy" (LOL). Is that the philosophy the smiling leaders at such ISs cite verse for verse from their flyer and brochure or other advertising/marketing literature because ownership and leadership and some consultants sat in a conference room to a catered lunch and claim their international because they include and repeat the word a couple of times in some statement of ethos/philosophy/mission. Is it the wishful thinking and imagination of executive leadership still clinging to some fantasy from long ago regarding the equality of the Socratic method as they watch cat videos and spin in their chairs while the parents who could not care less about anything international except getting their child into some prestigious elite Uni. Is it the delusion than when "philosophy" hits the ledger of cold hard uncompromising coin that values somehow win that battle, in what world is that ever true (except for the self appreciating claims of the leadership posts to come that claim "Ive been an admin/lead for X years at Y ISs and I always do the right thing, even when its hard to do so". Quick someone call Diogenes if he hasnt been struck by Zeuss lightning bolt).
@Walter and I strongly disagree on what ISs reach what marks at anytime if ever. I wouldnt use those ISs as examples.
Not that I claimed or even inferred that this 95% local student population was true.
@Walter
Keep working on that reading fluency.
Re: downsides of working at national schools?
I have had 3 experiences with national schools both in the Middle East. They were not very pleasant. In each expat Westerners were not trusted and spied on and in no way treated as professionals. Wasta/influence and corruption was rife and semi open. IB standards were a joke. Exam standards were a joke.
Penny pinching and cost cutting in key areas whilst in non essential areas money was squandered. Local hired admin had palatial and lavish offices but faculty struggled to get basic essentials. Free coffee and dates for locally hired admin at any time but no water cooler refills for teachers. Hired help are one up from slaves.
I also found the national schools to be bloodbaths in terms of getting rid of people they decided against even letting staff know on the last day of term before summer recess.
I would do a lot of research before accepting a post in a national school and be aware that professional standards may be lower or compromised. Sorry to be negative and I hope my experiences are not that common.
Penny pinching and cost cutting in key areas whilst in non essential areas money was squandered. Local hired admin had palatial and lavish offices but faculty struggled to get basic essentials. Free coffee and dates for locally hired admin at any time but no water cooler refills for teachers. Hired help are one up from slaves.
I also found the national schools to be bloodbaths in terms of getting rid of people they decided against even letting staff know on the last day of term before summer recess.
I would do a lot of research before accepting a post in a national school and be aware that professional standards may be lower or compromised. Sorry to be negative and I hope my experiences are not that common.