Choosing offers

usartteacher
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:45 pm

Choosing offers

Post by usartteacher »

Hi all,
I have been applying for jobs for 5 weeks and have received 3 offers at what seem like very good schools. I have turned them down for their locations (I have a trailing partner who will need to be in a location that he can work and whose opinion counts). Since we still have a month or two left of peak recruitment season, along with fairs, I've been fairly selective. I don't consider myself a competitive candidate since I'm new to teaching and new to ISs. How do you all maneuver the balance between being selective (you are choosing a lifestyle, not just a job) and being open-minded about IS? I am afraid of settling in the name of gaining experience but also afraid to be too picky. Any advice on choosing the right job?
Thoughts?
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Response

Post by PsyGuy »

How lucky do you feel?
Youve gotten offers but recognizing you arent very competitive they were likely ISs that were trying to get to you early before you recognized your value. However, while you could get lucky and get the dream offer in a highly desirable location, the reality is the offers that come to you in the future, are going to be more of like the ones you have had.
IE really isnt a slow even burn, its going to be hot for somewhere between a couple weeks and a couple hours, and then a lot of vacancies will be filled and you can find yourself blinking and suddenly there is a lot to choose from and ITs get panicky.
I usually recommend selecting an offer or two as a backup in your pocket and see what else there is to offer, and if you get something better then withdraw your acceptance of the safety offers, and if nothing else better happens and you dont win the IE lottery you wont have nothing. Your issue is you dont have anything to compare your utility to that isnt your dream appointment and you need something more tangible and concrete to compare this is what I have to this is whats being offered.
usartteacher
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:45 pm

Re: Choosing offers

Post by usartteacher »

Thanks for your feedback
@PsyGuy - I assumed it was bad professional practice to accept an offer and then turn it down later if you get something better... - am I wrong - is this a common practice in the IS community?
eion_padraig
Posts: 408
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:18 pm

Re: Choosing offers

Post by eion_padraig »

Hey @usartteacher, accepting offers from one school and then continuing to search is a big problem in the IS world. It's even more problematic if you're working with Search Associates or ISS as they'll blacklist you. Also, even though it's a big world, the world of IS is surprisingly small so if you're doing something like that you may make it much harder for you to get future offers.

SighGuy is prolific in giving answers, but he often offers very questionable advice and often offers advice on things he doesn't really know about. I have him blocked, so I don't know what he's written to you.

As for the balance between a job and life-style, it's an important thing to discuss with you and your partner. If there are deal breakers, know what they are going into the search. The potential pitfall is that you end up with no offers at places you want. Do you have the option of staying put for another year if you don't find an option? Sometimes teachers strike gold the first time out when looking for a job, but often the first and/or second placement means giving up something people may be looking for as an ideal (salary, distance from home, type of school, etc). Being new to teaching with a trailing spouse and no overseas experience probably means you won't get everything you want the first time out. Finding a place where a trailing spouse can be very tough depending on their field, willingness to do something outside their field, and local regulations. I've known a number of people to head back to their country after struggling with that issue over time.

It may be that those 3 offers you received were from good schools, or it's possible you may not know what to look out for when it comes to issues. Be aware that some will have spent the same time submitting applications and received no offers too. It's hard to know without knowing more about you as a candidate and knowing which schools were offering, but that's probably not something to share on this forum.

Good luck.
usartteacher
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:45 pm

Re: Choosing offers

Post by usartteacher »

Thank you @eion_padraig
That's very helpful. Now that we have completed the process of the first three offers, I have a much clearer idea of what I'm willing to compromise and what I'm not - and therefore will be more selective when applying.
The process of finding ISs is exciting but oh so stressful!
reisgio
Posts: 206
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:17 am

Re: Choosing offers

Post by reisgio »

Oh my, you are not competitive but say no to three jobs! Where exactly are you willing to work?
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@usartteacher


No its not bad professional practice. No more than it is in any other field. If your in technology and take a job with a small software developing group and then a few weeks later get tan offer from Google or Apple, sure the first company will be upset, even pissed off, but thats there problem not yours. IE isnt any different. If you are workinf for one school district and a better district offers you a job, your passed district would be upset, but what are they going to do about it? IE is no different. There is one glaring truth that I have found in all my many years in IE and that is no one, not a principal, not a director, not ownership, not your embassy, your ministers, your government officials, not anyone is going to care more about you, than you. Most of those entities wont even care at all.
Many ITs would break contract for their dream job. In DODEA many ITs break contract with their DSs and districts without any significant notice, well after the AY has already happened. Im not saying screw over whoever you can, Im suggesting you remain open to pursuing opportunities.

There is no blacklist, and there is no central clearinghouse of ISs, and no IE is actually pretty big and very spread out. @eion_padraig tends to advance the leadership line and corporate brochure 9and knows exactly what I write). The reality is what are they going to do and how would they know? The passe three ISs that made you offers didnt ask if you were under contract i imagine. Even if they did and you were and you said no how would they find out. Oh sure you here the stories about the one time at leadership camp this one principal was blabbering with some some other principal about cat videos and which swivel chair has the lowest friction drag, and somehow they find out that some IT took leave and actually went to work for some other IS, collecting two salaries, but those are the extreme exception and not anywhere close to the norm. Even if you did get a better offer and you took it, just dont tell the previous IS the real reason your leaveing. Just say you had a family, medical tragedy or that your daughters gold fish died or something, and that assumes you tell them anything and just dont show up. What are they going to do about it?
Oh you will hear the speech about y"your word is your bond" and that would be great if that word cut both ways but recruiters and leadership think nothing about sending you some three line email "So sad, too bad, we cant hire you, good luck int he future' when ownership daughter or son needs you job or their enrollment didnt work out the way they expected. None of the premium agencies will do anything about it, you cant really after all dismiss the people that are paying you.

It is true that the premium agencies will drop you as a rep and refuse to work with you, for at least a few years. If they have already placed you though, then technically they have fulfilled their contract to you and you to them, and your not obligated to them any further.
wrldtrvlr123
Posts: 1173
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
Location: Japan

Re: Choosing offers

Post by wrldtrvlr123 »

usartteacher wrote:
> Thanks for your feedback
> @PsyGuy - I assumed it was bad professional practice to accept an offer and
> then turn it down later if you get something better... - am I wrong - is
> this a common practice in the IS community?
=======================
You can split hairs but there is no debate that it is considered bad professional practice by administrators and owners who are the people who can offer you a job or decide not to offer you a job.

In practice, will it hurt you? Sure, it can. People have tried to play the game and ended up no job after the greener pasture school found out about it and withdrew their offer (kind of like trying to have two dates in the same night or two romantic partners at the same time and ending up with none).

People also do keeping looking after securing a safe/plan b offer and end up upgrading when something better comes along (and get away with it).

No one can really say with any certainty what the odds are either way so it's like anything else in life. Do what you are comfortable with and take risks that you can live with if it the worst thing happens.
shadowjack
Posts: 2138
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:49 am

Re: Choosing offers

Post by shadowjack »

I can assure you that heads do talk, do have lots of conferences at which to talk, including recruiting fairs, and that you can be bitten by your actions.

That said, will you be the topic. Who knows? How vindictive would the head you reneged after signing a contract be?
Overhere
Posts: 497
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:29 am

Re: Choosing offers

Post by Overhere »

and how would you feel if you signed a contract or made a verbal commitment and then two weeks later the school wrote and said they had found a more suitable candidate, sorry!
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

This is fear mongering. Sure recruiters and leadership talk but its got to be the leadership from Acme AS talking to the leadership of IS Genovia and the subject of you has to be the topic of conversation which can only happen if you actually accept an appointment with IS Genovia after accepting the previous appointment with Acme AS and somehow out of the 9,200+ ISs (still disagree with the ISC data) those two leaders end up in a conversation about anything that eventually for some reason digresses to about one particular IT. The probability of you being shot by a dog carrying a gun while swimming off the coast of Vanuatu are better.

By @WT123s position this website and this forum are "bad professional practice" since leadership who are in a position to not hire you or hire you disapprove. For that matter the claim is essentially dont do anything leadership or recruiters say not too since its 'bad professional practice" and they can dismiss you for any reason or no reason at all, essentially your interests, wants, needs, values mean nothing and are irrelevant. So if an IS doesnt pay your coin for "reasons" you should absolutely still continue working because otherwise its "bad professional practice". If an IS promises you a leadership position which they agreed to in writing in a contract and then you get there and they say "sorry your teaching primary 2 and without the leadership coin" you should nod your head and thank them profusely and absolutely stay and work for them because otherwise its "bad professional practice", because after all theyre leadership and the only thing that matters is they can appoint and dismiss you. If an IS says its "bad professional practice" if you only stay two years and dont re-sign for another two years at a poo bottom third tier IS, than you should absolutely stay.

As for @Overhere, it would feel pretty bad I imagine and ISs, recruiters and leadership do that all the time.
wrldtrvlr123
Posts: 1173
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
Location: Japan

Re: Choosing offers

Post by wrldtrvlr123 »

PsyGuy wrote:
> By @WT123s position this website and this forum are "bad professional practice" since
> leadership who are in a position to not hire you or hire you disapprove. For that
> matter the claim is essentially dont do anything leadership or recruiters say not
> too since its 'bad professional practice" and they can dismiss you for any reason
> or no reason at all, essentially your interests, wants, needs, values mean nothing
> and are irrelevant. So if an IS doesnt pay your coin for "reasons" you should absolutely
> still continue working because otherwise its "bad professional practice". If an
> IS promises you a leadership position which they agreed to in writing in a contract
> and then you get there and they say "sorry your teaching primary 2 and without the
> leadership coin" you should nod your head and thank them profusely and absolutely
> stay and work for them because otherwise its "bad professional practice", because
> after all theyre leadership and the only thing that matters is they can appoint
> and dismiss you. If an IS says its "bad professional practice" if you only stay
> two years and dont re-sign for another two years at a poo bottom third tier IS,
> than you should absolutely stay.
=====================
Please don't misrepresent my positions with one of your ridiculous over generalizations or to defend your ethically dodgy advice.

All I said was that the practice of continuing a job search after accepting an offer was universally considered bad professional practice by admin and owners. I'm glad that you don't dispute this. No where did I say or imply that you should not do or say anything that any admin or owner would not like.

That would be like me saying that because you have repeatedly told people on this forum (and others) that it's OK to lie, cheat and steal, you also think it's OK to commit worse crimes.

I also simply offered my input about the possibilities and advised that the OP should do whatever they are comfortable and whatever they can live with.
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@WT123

They arent ridiculous because they are true and you disagree and while generalizations they arent over generalizations because you deem them so.

Its not universally considered bad professional practice, just because some group of leadership thinks it is or considers it to be, doesnt make it true. The world of IE is not defined by leadership or ownership because they say so.

Ive never stated that lying, cheating or stealing are okay, I dont make judgments i present options and perspectives. I dont hear Diogenes knocking flooding your email.
WinterFerret
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:04 pm

Re: Choosing offers

Post by WinterFerret »

So it depends on the tier of school right.
If accepted to a tier 1 elite school, don't break contract and switch to another elite school unless you are tight with admin there.

For other tier 1 schools, be smart and error on caution.

For tier 2 and 3, still be smart, but remember they'll break contract too if it's in their interest.

If you used a recruiter and then break contract, yeah you're burning a bridge with that recruiter, obviously.

Keep visa rules in mind, if a school starts applying for your visa, and you want to switch to another school in the same country, there may be problems.

I like how PsyGuy brings up how this is a non-issue in most other professions. A talented computer programmer can accept a position, but then take a higher paying position elsewhere and be applauded for getting their market worth. (and company B would never go, oh so you were first given a contract by company A and then decided to work for us because we are paying more? Sorry we have to let you go...)
idonteven
Posts: 42
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:37 am

Re: Choosing offers

Post by idonteven »

WinterFerret wrote:
> I like how PsyGuy brings up how this is a non-issue in most other
> professions. A talented computer programmer can accept a position, but then
> take a higher paying position elsewhere and be applauded for getting their
> market worth. (and company B would never go, oh so you were first given a
> contract by company A and then decided to work for us because we are paying
> more? Sorry we have to let you go...)

This isn't a relevant comparison. First off, if a programmer renegs on an offer they previously accepted in favor of a better opportunity, the company he/she reneged on is certainly not applauding them. Other programmers might, but that's not what we're talking about. You need to compare like with like (tech managers and IS administration). There's probably other teachers who would applaud an IT for gaming the system, but that's not what matters when it comes to the impact it has on your career.

Secondly, the supply and demand of programmers/tech companies vs. ITs/ISs is completely different. The value proposition that a top 1% teacher brings to the table is not even close to the value a top 1% programmer brings a company (by value I mean strictly in the financial sense here). A great programmer can literally be worth more than 50-100 average programmers. Obviously as a teacher I believe there are benefits to education beyond what can be measured financially, but the reality is that a teacher's intangible personal qualities aren't likely to be compensated if their effects can't be measured easily.
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