Chances for moving to Europe without previous IT experience

[MrKamikazi]

I am looking into teaching outside of the US. I am physics certified with over 10 years of AP experience plus experience in teaching science research and starting a successful robotics team. I will have a trailing spouse but no other dependents. I would like the mythical "tier 1" job instantly but, in reality, I'm not restricting my search to only plum positions. So how easy is it to get into Europe? Is there a specific agency that is better for American schools in Europe (I'm not ruling out British schools but I have to think I would be at a disadvantage applying to them)?

[PsyGuy]

The WE is one of the most desirable regions in IE, many ITs want to end up in that region. In addition many of the third tier ISs wont sponsor a work visa and require candidates to already have working papers or a work visa. Does it happen, that someone with your resume can get into the WE first shot, sure, would I put money on it, nope. if its the WE or bust than it better not be your plan A.

For you and your goals I would recommend SA (Search Associates), but you dont really need an agency. You have no IB experience, so the only ISs in the WE that are going to be interested in you are going to be ASs, and of those only a handful of 1st tier ISs will sponsor a visa for you, and only those ISs will be able to provide you a package that would allow you to support a trailing spouse.

You would be at a disadvantage for BSs, but its not a huge disadvantage, physics across AP/A*/DIP are highly congruent.

[MrKamikazi]

I used Europe specifically because I am interested in all sections. Naturally the compensation and cost of living would effect things but but from a purely interest standpoint I like the Baltics, Eastern Europe, and some of the more fringe Western areas (Portugal, Malta) as much as the more big name countries.

[Thames Pirate]

Lots of people in less desired positions do it. We did it with no IB, 5 years domestic (nothing else) and not as desired a field. It was a nice tier 2 IB school, and we are currently at a tier 1. Plenty of our peers at that school and our current one came straight from domestic teaching or from non-IB jobs. Our mindset was not WE or bust, but almost!

For most WE schools getting a visa is easy for N Americans. All you need is a contract, not direct sponsorship. Also, the assumption that you could only work at ASs is nonsense.

And I would absolutely recommend Search and CIS. Plan on going to the London fair.

If you do your homework, you can do it easily enough.

[PsyGuy]

@MrKamikazi

Those fringe areas have very low demand because there isnt a lot of an IE presence in those locations.

@Thames Pirate and I disagree. Its just bunk that its easy for US ITs, sure all you need is a contract but that means sponsorship, because they arent going to give you a contract if you dont already have a visa or working papers.

Its not that you can only work at ASs, its comparative marketability. You have no IB experience and no BS experience, why hire someone with those deficiencies when there are other candidates who posses them. Its not an issue of being the top 10% or the top 5 you have to be the best match for an IS, and lack of experiene and curriculum is a significant issue.

You should go to the most competitive fair you can get an invite to, and thats going to be BKK.

[Thames Pirate]

Actually, they DO give you the contract first (you know, at the fair for example). You can take care of the visa upon arrival. It isn't like the ME, where you are mailing forms back and forth forever.

And again, we got hired with no IB--perhaps because we were the best fit for the school and the jobs even without it. This is especially true in fields like physics. Many of our colleagues also were hired without IB in Europe, either at our schools or their earlier European placements. This is because they (we) were the best fit for the jobs even without it.

And do not go to BKK if you are targeting Europe. That makes zero sense. Go to London, where the European schools are doing their hiring. Why fly to BKK when the school you are targeting aren't there?

[PsyGuy]

@Thames Pirate

No they actually DONT. They arent going to give you a contract if you dont meet their requirements including having working papers or EU citizenship or they are one of those few elite/first tier ISs, and they arent going to do that because you arent going to get even an interview with them. Oh Im sure that because @Thames Pirate says so thats how it is for everybody or your "one other friend" who like you just told them to give you a contract because confidence is better than competence. Bunk, or another way "I am unable to reconcile your claims as congruent with mine.

@MrKamikazi

You want to go to BKK because the rule is you always go o the most competitive fair you can, that is where you will find the ISs that are going to be willing to sponsor a visa, and have gone through the requirements of either the labor union or employment law. You could go to LON but youre going to find a lot of those ISs are looking for those who dont need sponsorship.

[sid]

Your chances are pretty decent in the fringe countries. Very low in the big name countries.

[Thames Pirate]

You can look up the requirements for a visa yourself. It's easy to get one for most westerners. If you have a contract in hand, you are fine. This isn't the "bribe the right official and hand over your passport" type of visa for which the school needs to fill out dozens of forms. You can fly over, walk into an office with your contract, and walk out with a visa. So you don't need existing work permits or to meet certain eligibility requirements. And no, I don't have "one friend" for whom this is the case, but two staffs--dozens or even hundreds of friends and acquaintances from all over as well as students and their families, expat friends not associated with the school, etc. But don't take my word for it. Look up EU visa requirements yourself.

And you attend the fair that has the jobs you want. For Europe, that's London. Schools in Europe used to attend BKK, but PsyGuy hasn't kept up with the times. European schools are increasingly skipping BKK and going exclusively to LON if they aren't attending both.

[thefarside]

Not really sure what @Psyguy is talking about in terms of visa/getting interviews with WE schools. Neither I nor my spouse are EU citizens and are at our second WE school (first was 2nd/3rd tier, now 1st tier) and we had our contract in hand and were in country before getting a visa. As far as the fair goes listen to @ThamesPirate and definitely go to London if you're targeting European schools as that's where most of them go. Since you're a physics teacher you have a better chance of landing a place here with no IT/IB experience but better schools are definitely going to want someone that's done DP before and knows the requirements.

On a side note as someone who creeps the forums more than posts I can say that it's really annoying reading the stupid arguments that go on between Psyguy and ThamesPirate. It really detracts from the quality and helpful information that this forum can provide for veteran and newbie ITs alike. Don't get me wrong I'm all about a debate when a topic warrants it but most of the argument that goes on between you two is pointless. Just my .02.

[beanie]

Another lurker chiming in. I too had only domestic experience and got my first IT job at a WE tier 1 school. Definitely only need a contract in hand before landing in the country. Visas/permits all arranged afterwards. And of course I was interviewed prior to being offered the job - both by skype and in person (flights/accomodation paid for).

[PsyGuy]

@MrKamikazi

I disagree agree with @Sid, the EE has a very small number of ISs that work on the circuit, and they are almost all 1st tier IS and there is only a handful of them repped by the premium agencies about 17 overall in the entire region. Its typically one per country, maybe 2 in the large countries. Where I agree with @Sid is that if you compare the same tier IS in the EE to that in the WE there is less competition in the EE than the WE. Its just a much smaller pool of ISs. What you are looking at is 2 vacancies a year at best in physics science across those 17 or so ISs. There will be fewer applicants at those ISs then in the WE, but theres going to be more vacancies overall in the WE.

Looking up the requirements for a visa is irrelevant. ISs have to comply with various labor laws and regulations that make it difficult to get that "contract" as @Thames Pirate indicates. Its not just walk up to a recruiter and say "give me a contract" and your fine. Those ISs just arent going to interview a candidate who doesnt meet the citizenship or residence requirements, if they havent gone through the labor process or arent one of the handful of ISs that are exempt. Its not an easy process for those who arent UK or other EU nationals.
@Thames Pirate constantly peddles her confidence supersedes competence Bunk all the time.
I dont know where @Thames Pirate gets the idea of bribes and vast amounts of visa forms, its immaterial (though there is a lot of documentation to meet the labor regulation requirements). The reality is that the LON fair has a very large portion of candidates that thought they would get there and have their choice of contracts and they walk out without any. Its not this feast of opportunity. You can just browse the EU ISs on TES and quickly find the ones that wont sponsor, meaning you wont get a contract to just go through the magical visa office visist and thus wont get an interview.

The reality of course is that many of those ISs do attend both fairs, and those that will sponsor a work visa are going to go to BKK. There are a smaller number of EU ISs at BKK compared to LON but all the EU ISs at BKK are willing to sponsor a candidate compared to going to LON and finding out most of the ISs want candidates with working papers or a visa.

I disagree with @thefarside and @beanie its always the exceptions that claim its always so easy, which if it was true, than there would be so many more candidates working in the EU. You go to a fair and there are long lines of candidates for 1 or 2 positions and the reality is the vast majority of those candidates arent getting an interview and not getting an offer. If an IS has 2 vacancies and 100 candidates at signup (and thats realistic), the reality is 98 of them are not getting the job. Its convenient and disingenuous to be the 2 that say it was easy.

If your really focused on the EE, Id strong consider forgoing one of the premium agencies (ISS and SA) and do it yourself. Its easy enough to make a bookmarks list of those handful of ISs in the EE and monitor them on a regular basis. You would feel frustrated going through the entire process and cost to find those 1 or 2 vacancies that you could just as easily apply to on your own.

@thefarside

I agree but its not going to stop were both very strong personalities.

[b12r]

Long time lurker and occasional poster...

I will say most of the time PSYguy tends to always disagree with virtually every poster. I am not saying he is not helpful, just always sees EVERYthing different.

[PsyGuy]

@b12r

Its not everything, its much more balanced than that. Its when I disagree I really disagree, and those posts are more memorable than the ones i agree with the other contributors.

[Thames Pirate]

OP, I think we addressed your questions;reading between the lines and interpreting the advice to fit your situation is up to you, though if you have additional questions we are here. One last piece of advice--be aggressive and optimistic in your search because any school could hire any person, regardless of what this forum says. Good luck!