How many people are hired before the fairs?
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shopaholic
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:42 pm
How many people are hired before the fairs?
Just that, really. Do (m)any Europe schools recruit via Skype before the big fairs? Or is attending London or Bangkok the best way of landing a job for the next year?
Re: How many people are hired before the fairs?
Hi Shopaholic,
Really, in order to discuss hiring practices, we need to break it down by best schools vs. worst schools, not location-based. Generally speaking, the best schools are organized and hire as early as possible in order to get the best candidate before other jobs have chances to make their offer. That being said, a lot of schools have the date by which an employee must inform the school of their intentions for next year as somewhere around mid to late December. With that in mind, and also thinking that most schools go on Christmas break shortly after that date, the BKK job fair continues to be the best fair to go to if you must go to one. The important thing to remember is that every single school and it's hiring practices differ. Some require a meet and greet in person, but most, if they are a decent school, want to hire as early as possible before the best candidates get taken by other schools. If that means hiring on Skype, so be it.
Now, the worst of schools will utilize any and every means necessary to get a candidate. Skype interview? In-person interview? No interview whatsoever? Lying? Cheating? Stealing? All check! Nothing really matters to these schools since they know that once you get into country, your rights are nonexistent and they've got you. Not just physically, but financially as well as many other ways.
Honestly, the best way to land a job for the next year is to have everything in order (references, CV's, etc.) before the school year prior to your move. Such as if you are wanting a job somewhere else for the '18-'19 school year, you really need to have all your job search materials ready by September 1, 2017 at the latest. That way, when jobs start posting, and they do indeed start getting posted that early, you can be the first applicant.
Hope this helps!
Really, in order to discuss hiring practices, we need to break it down by best schools vs. worst schools, not location-based. Generally speaking, the best schools are organized and hire as early as possible in order to get the best candidate before other jobs have chances to make their offer. That being said, a lot of schools have the date by which an employee must inform the school of their intentions for next year as somewhere around mid to late December. With that in mind, and also thinking that most schools go on Christmas break shortly after that date, the BKK job fair continues to be the best fair to go to if you must go to one. The important thing to remember is that every single school and it's hiring practices differ. Some require a meet and greet in person, but most, if they are a decent school, want to hire as early as possible before the best candidates get taken by other schools. If that means hiring on Skype, so be it.
Now, the worst of schools will utilize any and every means necessary to get a candidate. Skype interview? In-person interview? No interview whatsoever? Lying? Cheating? Stealing? All check! Nothing really matters to these schools since they know that once you get into country, your rights are nonexistent and they've got you. Not just physically, but financially as well as many other ways.
Honestly, the best way to land a job for the next year is to have everything in order (references, CV's, etc.) before the school year prior to your move. Such as if you are wanting a job somewhere else for the '18-'19 school year, you really need to have all your job search materials ready by September 1, 2017 at the latest. That way, when jobs start posting, and they do indeed start getting posted that early, you can be the first applicant.
Hope this helps!
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: How many people are hired before the fairs?
A few notes about labor laws in Europe--while it is courteous to tell a school that you are leaving as soon as you know, you are not required to notify schools until quite late--May or June--in many places in Europe. This means jobs for the coming year (2017) are still being filled sometimes. The earlier you are ready to apply, the better. This is doubly true when you take into account things like maternity leave policies.
As for traditional hiring, the good schools hire as quickly as possible after posting, but with a few caveats. This means that they frequently hire via Skype, etc. in the fall and again in the spring/summer for the following year. However, they do not do this right before the fair because they get access to lots of good candidates at the fair. Why hire via Skype in December when you can choose from lots of face to face candidates at a fair? They may, if you are a particularly strong candidate, Skype you and then go to the fair before deciding one way or another. But at fair time, they hire at the fairs. That said, they do try to pre-interview at fairs with people who have already applied for their vacancies. So sending in an application before a fair is still important.
I am going to disagree with aburr on a few things. The first is job fair. If your goal is Europe, don't go to BKK. Go to LON. Increasingly, the fairs are somewhat regional. Most European schools go to Search LON and combine with the CIS fair. Sure some go to both and a very few go to BKK, we are talking a handful of schools. 20 or so at BKK vs. 60+ at LON, with a handful being overlap.
Also, aburr is wrong about rights being nonexistent. Europe has incredibly strong worker protections and contract laws, so you would have a lot of recourse against unfair practices and broken contracts. Schools know this, and while there are better and worse schools, there aren't many of the super shady, leave you hanging variety--at least in the EU.
My advice? Be ready early (now if willing to move for 2017, updating in the fall as applicable), plan on going to LON, apply to vacancies ASAP--by the first weekend after posting at the latest-- but then be patient, and remember that many schools post on their websites before they post on Search, so you will need to check school websites often--weekly at least. Beyond that put your best foot forward--craft excellent cover letters, make sure your resume shows you off in the best way, include job reference numbers/titles in your email subject, etc.
As for traditional hiring, the good schools hire as quickly as possible after posting, but with a few caveats. This means that they frequently hire via Skype, etc. in the fall and again in the spring/summer for the following year. However, they do not do this right before the fair because they get access to lots of good candidates at the fair. Why hire via Skype in December when you can choose from lots of face to face candidates at a fair? They may, if you are a particularly strong candidate, Skype you and then go to the fair before deciding one way or another. But at fair time, they hire at the fairs. That said, they do try to pre-interview at fairs with people who have already applied for their vacancies. So sending in an application before a fair is still important.
I am going to disagree with aburr on a few things. The first is job fair. If your goal is Europe, don't go to BKK. Go to LON. Increasingly, the fairs are somewhat regional. Most European schools go to Search LON and combine with the CIS fair. Sure some go to both and a very few go to BKK, we are talking a handful of schools. 20 or so at BKK vs. 60+ at LON, with a handful being overlap.
Also, aburr is wrong about rights being nonexistent. Europe has incredibly strong worker protections and contract laws, so you would have a lot of recourse against unfair practices and broken contracts. Schools know this, and while there are better and worse schools, there aren't many of the super shady, leave you hanging variety--at least in the EU.
My advice? Be ready early (now if willing to move for 2017, updating in the fall as applicable), plan on going to LON, apply to vacancies ASAP--by the first weekend after posting at the latest-- but then be patient, and remember that many schools post on their websites before they post on Search, so you will need to check school websites often--weekly at least. Beyond that put your best foot forward--craft excellent cover letters, make sure your resume shows you off in the best way, include job reference numbers/titles in your email subject, etc.
Response
Not many, in the EU labor regulations and union rules prohibit a lot of employers from requiring notice to a month or two before the end of contract. While some ISs request a notice earlier, its generally not binding, or its an IT thats retiring out. That date is getting earlier and earlier, Early November and Late October is becoming the notice period in IE. The biggest increase in recruiting is around late May and June. Unless youre a super star IT you probably arent going to get a lot of interest from a WE IS earlier than the fairs.
The rule is you go to the most competitive fair you can get an invite too, which is bangkok if you can do it. There might be 20+ EU ISs at Bangkok but they are recruiting. You go to LON and about two thirds of those ISs wont arrange a visa, in that case they really are regional fairs, and they are looking for regional ITs and DTs that have an EU passport. However if you can swing the time and attend both the LON fair and the COIS fair youd get exposure to a lot of WE IS, and you might get lucky as its early enough in the year to arrange a visa if your really lucky.
You have a lot of labor rights in the EU, and while its a lot better than Asia (by a lot) and usually there is more access to the judicial system and labor arbitration the reality is if you arent established in the region, once you lose your job, lots of bad things can happen to you very quickly regardless of what your rights and protections are. Independent ISs still have a lot of flexibility in dismissing an IT. Its better, and while you can get tenure in the EU, there are limits.
The EU like every region has its third tier, and that third tier has a bottom. There are ISs that will lie to you claiming you have to apply for a visa on arrival, and then 3 months later when your tourist visa expires they say they can get you a work visa, and then scare you into leaving the country with a promise they will handle the salary payments later, and then later never happens. that happens, but the scenario is generally a lot better than you would find in Asia, and the bottom of the tier 3 is smaller in the EU.
However, what you are looking for; getting an EU appointment before the fair on the easy isnt very likely.
The rule is you go to the most competitive fair you can get an invite too, which is bangkok if you can do it. There might be 20+ EU ISs at Bangkok but they are recruiting. You go to LON and about two thirds of those ISs wont arrange a visa, in that case they really are regional fairs, and they are looking for regional ITs and DTs that have an EU passport. However if you can swing the time and attend both the LON fair and the COIS fair youd get exposure to a lot of WE IS, and you might get lucky as its early enough in the year to arrange a visa if your really lucky.
You have a lot of labor rights in the EU, and while its a lot better than Asia (by a lot) and usually there is more access to the judicial system and labor arbitration the reality is if you arent established in the region, once you lose your job, lots of bad things can happen to you very quickly regardless of what your rights and protections are. Independent ISs still have a lot of flexibility in dismissing an IT. Its better, and while you can get tenure in the EU, there are limits.
The EU like every region has its third tier, and that third tier has a bottom. There are ISs that will lie to you claiming you have to apply for a visa on arrival, and then 3 months later when your tourist visa expires they say they can get you a work visa, and then scare you into leaving the country with a promise they will handle the salary payments later, and then later never happens. that happens, but the scenario is generally a lot better than you would find in Asia, and the bottom of the tier 3 is smaller in the EU.
However, what you are looking for; getting an EU appointment before the fair on the easy isnt very likely.
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Thames Pirate
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Re: How many people are hired before the fairs?
As always, nonsense on the fairs. Why would you bother with BKK when the schools you want aren't there? And no, they aren't looking for EU teachers. The fairs are regional because the schools find what they need and don't have to travel as far. With Skype they can access candidates at other fairs anyway. Of those hires at LON for our school, I was the only one with an EU passport, and our school Skyped with someone at BKK (and got them) before going to LON. Only one of those teachers (not EU citizen) was already teaching in the EU. I love that BKK is apparently ideal to arrange a visa but LON only if you are really lucky .... The fairs are a week or two apart, and the visa generally isn't difficult for most westerners. It is often done on arrival rather than before for Western ITs. If you have a contract, it is really easy. It is also hard for a school to not pay thanks to contract law enforcement. So even if they fire you, you have some time to find other work AND have legal recourse on payment. Thus there are not really schools doing this regularly.
Third tier schools in WE are typically so designated because they pay less and are mostly host nationals. They may have some other administrative problems or lack resources. They might be for profit or new on the scene. They are not likely to be the shady ones you find in places like China, though. It's just too hard to do.
Third tier schools in WE are typically so designated because they pay less and are mostly host nationals. They may have some other administrative problems or lack resources. They might be for profit or new on the scene. They are not likely to be the shady ones you find in places like China, though. It's just too hard to do.
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Thames Pirate
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Re: How many people are hired before the fairs?
Just going to add that you can often do the visa yourself if you have a contract in hand. The paperwork is relatively easy. Once you have a two year visa, the school would likely have to go through the trouble of cancelling it, and then you still have your 3 months to find a new job (it doesn't have to be teaching) AND have your legal recourse for non-payment. If they fired you in an attempt to defraud you, you might even be able to get the entire contract paid out (depending on how it is written). European labor laws are pretty tight, and after all, the country wants its taxes--which they only collect if you are paid! You will easily win if you aren't paid for time worked, even if they then fire you with cause. And since you have your 90 days to get that done and find a job bagging groceries . . . . So no, the schools in the EU are not likely to pull those shady moves. It just doesn't work.
In theory, of course, it's possible. If you half way pay attention to common sense, you can avoid it because it is so rare and the red flags so obvious.
In theory, of course, it's possible. If you half way pay attention to common sense, you can avoid it because it is so rare and the red flags so obvious.
Discussion
@Thames Pirate
That is partially true, you can in some cases and some regions apply directly for a visa with a contract. Thats how a lot of corporate employees who are immigrating to the WE. Getting the contract however has issues for the IS that they have to comply with such as advertising a vacancy for months and looking for locals first. there are ISs, mostly elite tier ISs that have exemption status to some regulations and rules effecting employment. There is however a majority of ISs in the middle and lower tiers that require a candidate to have an EU passport, and at fairs they have screeners that screen for that before you even get your 30 seconds with the recruiter.
Almost all ISs would go through the effort of canceling a visa for a dismissed IT,and why wouldnt they, its in their interest to exert pressure in getting rid of you. Yes, you would have three months but depending where you are you may be in a area that has little other options in IE. yes, you could find work outside of IE, but unless you have an in with a company or a hiring manager, you are not likely to find anything. Your not even a native speaker of whatever the host language is. Basically, your going to be either:
1) Working for yourself and trying to self sponsor your visa.
2) Working in the ESOL market and hoping for a new visa.
3) Finding another IS in a different area or if fortunate in the same region.
4) Attempting to transition to a different non educational field, in which you are likely to have a language barrier.
I do agree with you, youre in a better position than you would be in Asia. You have more resources, and better protections, and if you stick it out you will get your earned wages, and potentially could get your position back, or paid out the whole contract. The last one getting the whole contract paid out, is going to require filing a civil suite and its going to take much longer than 3 months to get it. However, the current HOS is likely going to provide a negative reference.
I also agree the bottom of the third tier is smaller and not as scary as other regions, but it is there and it does happen.
That is partially true, you can in some cases and some regions apply directly for a visa with a contract. Thats how a lot of corporate employees who are immigrating to the WE. Getting the contract however has issues for the IS that they have to comply with such as advertising a vacancy for months and looking for locals first. there are ISs, mostly elite tier ISs that have exemption status to some regulations and rules effecting employment. There is however a majority of ISs in the middle and lower tiers that require a candidate to have an EU passport, and at fairs they have screeners that screen for that before you even get your 30 seconds with the recruiter.
Almost all ISs would go through the effort of canceling a visa for a dismissed IT,and why wouldnt they, its in their interest to exert pressure in getting rid of you. Yes, you would have three months but depending where you are you may be in a area that has little other options in IE. yes, you could find work outside of IE, but unless you have an in with a company or a hiring manager, you are not likely to find anything. Your not even a native speaker of whatever the host language is. Basically, your going to be either:
1) Working for yourself and trying to self sponsor your visa.
2) Working in the ESOL market and hoping for a new visa.
3) Finding another IS in a different area or if fortunate in the same region.
4) Attempting to transition to a different non educational field, in which you are likely to have a language barrier.
I do agree with you, youre in a better position than you would be in Asia. You have more resources, and better protections, and if you stick it out you will get your earned wages, and potentially could get your position back, or paid out the whole contract. The last one getting the whole contract paid out, is going to require filing a civil suite and its going to take much longer than 3 months to get it. However, the current HOS is likely going to provide a negative reference.
I also agree the bottom of the third tier is smaller and not as scary as other regions, but it is there and it does happen.
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: How many people are hired before the fairs?
It's the EU. You can look up what you need for a Schengen Visa. It's not partially true; it's true. Also, if you don't have a contract, you don't have a job--a point you like to hammer home unless you are disagreeing with me. So if you have a contract, you angeht a visa. And if you are terminated, you can stay on long enough to collect your pay. Schools know this, so they are not likely to pull a fast one--they know they will lose. And no, there is not a preference for EU nationals or a screener. Sure, some schools might do that internally, but it is rare--and if they do, they certainly won't stiff you since, well, you don't need a visa and are likely to know your rights. And yes, you get 3 months if you are Aussie, Kiwi, US, or Canadian, and your new job doesn't need to sponsor you. If you have a contract, you can get a visa.
Long story short, don't listen to PsyGuy's incorrect and self-contradicting advice.
Long story short, don't listen to PsyGuy's incorrect and self-contradicting advice.
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: How many people are hired before the fairs?
To return to the topic at hand, yes, you should plan on attending LON, but you should also check individual schools' websites and apply immediately to any openings you spot anywhere you would want to work. The jobs will open up year round, with heavy recruiting happening between Jan 1 and LON and another, smaller wave (mostly more local) happening in late May-June. Of the people who have come on in the recent years, I would say at least 65% were recruited either at the fairs (only LON--both CIS and SA for us) or Skype just before and after LON. Another 20% were local hires (spouses, language teachers, a few other local hires).
They will look at the fairs but still Skype top candidates during that time. There is little before that unless you have a mega-resume or a hard-to-fill position (IB maths, specific foreign language/music split, etc.), but some. They also do a lot of pre-hiring at the fairs. The nice thing there is that you can spend a few days cruising around London if that happens.
So be ready, plan on London, and as always, be aggressive in your research and making your applications high quality.
They will look at the fairs but still Skype top candidates during that time. There is little before that unless you have a mega-resume or a hard-to-fill position (IB maths, specific foreign language/music split, etc.), but some. They also do a lot of pre-hiring at the fairs. The nice thing there is that you can spend a few days cruising around London if that happens.
So be ready, plan on London, and as always, be aggressive in your research and making your applications high quality.
Reply
@Thames Pirate
Utter bunk, an IS isnt just going to give an IT a contract and say here go get a visa, its out of our hands. The IS is on the hook for that contract, and is required to meet labor rules and regulations in recruiting. You are ignoring everything up into the contract. Its barely partially true.
You may be able to stay on long enough to collect your pay. Did the IS guarantee your apartment/flat, is the flight home a now or never proposition? An IS can wait, you really cant.
Yes, there are pre-screeners looking for EU nationals. Its not rare its very prevalent. Everyone can get a tourist visa for three months, but you cant work on it.
Short answer, youre just wrong.
@shopaholic
The rule is you want to go to the most competitive fair you can, which if you can get the invite is BKK. You want to start looking in October, and apply to any vacancy thats posted in your area. If you have a super star resume you may get some interest before the main recruiting season in January, but this is a very small amount of recruiting. An IS may want to do first night recruiting at the fair for a preferred candidate they have already discussed the position with, but again this is rare. A lot of vacancies vanish this way before sign up starts.
During the peak in recruiting which is Early January to Early February, ISs are looking to fill the vacancies they already know about, and this is mostly upper tier ISs. This is early enough for non-EU ITs to get a visa (meaning the IS can fulfill the non-local recruiting requirements, or they have an exemption). Then there is a long lull until May when the ISs and local DSs with International Academies recruit, thats when TES gets thousands of jobs posted, and thats when your going to find the ISs that will do Skype interviews, and your most likely to get the most interest (because if you were that class of IT, you wouldnt be posting on this forum). The problem with that is you have to say no to a lot of potentially great opportunities waiting for a WE opportunity that may very well not happen.
Utter bunk, an IS isnt just going to give an IT a contract and say here go get a visa, its out of our hands. The IS is on the hook for that contract, and is required to meet labor rules and regulations in recruiting. You are ignoring everything up into the contract. Its barely partially true.
You may be able to stay on long enough to collect your pay. Did the IS guarantee your apartment/flat, is the flight home a now or never proposition? An IS can wait, you really cant.
Yes, there are pre-screeners looking for EU nationals. Its not rare its very prevalent. Everyone can get a tourist visa for three months, but you cant work on it.
Short answer, youre just wrong.
@shopaholic
The rule is you want to go to the most competitive fair you can, which if you can get the invite is BKK. You want to start looking in October, and apply to any vacancy thats posted in your area. If you have a super star resume you may get some interest before the main recruiting season in January, but this is a very small amount of recruiting. An IS may want to do first night recruiting at the fair for a preferred candidate they have already discussed the position with, but again this is rare. A lot of vacancies vanish this way before sign up starts.
During the peak in recruiting which is Early January to Early February, ISs are looking to fill the vacancies they already know about, and this is mostly upper tier ISs. This is early enough for non-EU ITs to get a visa (meaning the IS can fulfill the non-local recruiting requirements, or they have an exemption). Then there is a long lull until May when the ISs and local DSs with International Academies recruit, thats when TES gets thousands of jobs posted, and thats when your going to find the ISs that will do Skype interviews, and your most likely to get the most interest (because if you were that class of IT, you wouldnt be posting on this forum). The problem with that is you have to say no to a lot of potentially great opportunities waiting for a WE opportunity that may very well not happen.
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Thames Pirate
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- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: How many people are hired before the fairs?
No, they give contracts. Most of them also provide visa assistance. However, if they don't, you can get your own visa if you have a contract, which you should obviously have well before your arrival.
And yes, you CAN stay. In fact, in many places in Europe, it's hard to break a rent contract without significant penalties, and frequently the school does little more than help you with the paperwork. Remember, in WE housing is rarely part of the contract. If the school is then going to stiff you on top of that, you may as well forget the flight home and stay to fight for your pay. You see, it helps if you actually think things through.
So there is no logical reason for a school to behave in the manner you described--it won't hold up in court, they have little leverage, and there is no long-term benefit.
And once again, why go to BKK when the schools you want aren't there and aren't hiring there? That is nonsense. Perhaps when the better schools went to BKK and the second tier schools went to LON, that was true. Perhaps it was even true when the schools went to both since BKK was first. It is no longer true, but PsyGuy is unable to adapt to the way things are now. And once again he displays his ignorance when he talks about "early enough . . . to get a visa" when, in fact, the EU nationals that schools allegedly screen for don't need them, and most Westerners (again, US, Canada, Aus, NZ) get them on arrival and don't need to pre-apply. So here again he contradicts himself AND displays his ignorance of current EU school recruiting patterns.
We have had two separate contracts in WE in the last five years (just finishing year 1 at dream school, also worked in a pretty nice Tier 2). Both were obtained at LON--one with the initial interview at the fair and a follow up via Skype, and the other with a pre-fair interview and immediate offer. Both times we did turn down other offers and even interviews in places that didn't interest us despite people telling us we had to work our way into WE by working in China/ME/wherever else first.
We have friends all over WE, and lots of schools do Skype--particularly the ones that prefer to hire without using an agency (direct postings on their websites) or with particularly strong candidates who are not attending a fair. Lots of others don't. So just be ready to Skype and plan on London.
And yes, you CAN stay. In fact, in many places in Europe, it's hard to break a rent contract without significant penalties, and frequently the school does little more than help you with the paperwork. Remember, in WE housing is rarely part of the contract. If the school is then going to stiff you on top of that, you may as well forget the flight home and stay to fight for your pay. You see, it helps if you actually think things through.
So there is no logical reason for a school to behave in the manner you described--it won't hold up in court, they have little leverage, and there is no long-term benefit.
And once again, why go to BKK when the schools you want aren't there and aren't hiring there? That is nonsense. Perhaps when the better schools went to BKK and the second tier schools went to LON, that was true. Perhaps it was even true when the schools went to both since BKK was first. It is no longer true, but PsyGuy is unable to adapt to the way things are now. And once again he displays his ignorance when he talks about "early enough . . . to get a visa" when, in fact, the EU nationals that schools allegedly screen for don't need them, and most Westerners (again, US, Canada, Aus, NZ) get them on arrival and don't need to pre-apply. So here again he contradicts himself AND displays his ignorance of current EU school recruiting patterns.
We have had two separate contracts in WE in the last five years (just finishing year 1 at dream school, also worked in a pretty nice Tier 2). Both were obtained at LON--one with the initial interview at the fair and a follow up via Skype, and the other with a pre-fair interview and immediate offer. Both times we did turn down other offers and even interviews in places that didn't interest us despite people telling us we had to work our way into WE by working in China/ME/wherever else first.
We have friends all over WE, and lots of schools do Skype--particularly the ones that prefer to hire without using an agency (direct postings on their websites) or with particularly strong candidates who are not attending a fair. Lots of others don't. So just be ready to Skype and plan on London.
Re: How many people are hired before the fairs?
The schools in Europe are all over the map - quite literally. Some hire before the fair (I once interviewed in Feb for a start date two Julys in the future and I once interviewed in Nov for the next July), and I've also interviewed for European jobs in July for a start date of a few weeks later! Good luck.