When to Stay?

[falconeer]

Two years ago, at the January London fair, it struck me that IT's fell into two two different age brackets. The 20 and 30 somethings, overall, had an air of ease and confidence to them. Meanwhile, you could sense the tension in the faces and body language of the 40's and 50's set. And it struck me that going forward, it was in my interest to not be one of those people in the second half of their career, showing up at a fair with a fresh stack of resumes trying to impress recruiters.

So my question is, what is your opinion?

Is there a danger in assuming that jumping from contract to contract is a viable career plan for an IT? Should the IT be moving towards a job/location where they finally stay in and no longer move? Does the IT reach an age where their prospects begin to decline as they jump from contract to contract?

[Thames Pirate]

I think it's a matter of preference as well as a matter of having the right resume. Those that have never taught IB, never taught abroad, and are looking to find something perfect for the family with kids are likely to be stressed. Those who have great resumes don't look stressed at fairs because if they go at all, they likely have interviews already lined up, have lots of options, and have been through it enough to know what matters and what they want/need, etc.

Some people want to move "home" to be near the grandkids on retirement. Others want to find that final gig and retire in that location. Still others want to save enough to retire in a dream location. To each his own. As far as jumping from contract to contract, yes and no--you don't want to do 2 years and move too often, especially if you are looking for long term good schools. Doing 2 short contracts early on to move up to better schools is fine, but if that's all you have, schools don't want to commit to you. If you start staying 3-5 years, that's a bit better. Even too many of those can be problematic later in your career, though.

[PsyGuy]

Its a little more complicated than that, a significant quality you havent identified is that those 40s/50s ITs at the fairs have not done well with their careers. they are either 1) DTs who have been pushed out of DE, and IE is the most viable option or they are ITs who made mistakes along the way. Carrer ITs by that age who have done well, have built a network and reputation that they dont need to attend fairs anymore if they even have to actively recruit.

The other issue is that once an IT is in their 50s they need to start identifying where they are going to settle and where they are going to retire out of. You need to be in the WE for about 10 years on average before you will have a significant pension to live off of in most regions. A lot of those ITs at fairs in their 40s/50s basically dont have anything or cant collect until they are in their mid 60s and need to pay bills until they get there, assuming they have anything at all. By mid 50s an IT needs to be firmly sat in their IS/region, unless they are in leadership.

Theres also "cap loss", many ISs have limits to what step you can be placed on the salary scale. Somewhere between 5-10 years. If you have more than the cap and a lot more then the cap your losing seniority steps every time you move. A typical IT can either move up a tier or move out of a hardship post with each contract (total about 6 years on an aggressive strategy). The sooner you climb and move through the tiers to get to a region/IS where you can settle and retire out of the sooner you can build seniority steps on the salary scale.
This is in addition to whatever retirement and pension options you might have. Leaving regions often means taking a loss if not having to start over.

There is nothing wrong with moving though the system on two year contracts. As long as you complete your contractual obligations and get a positive reference its fine. You will find contributors on the forum who "strongly advise" you do three years to show some kind of trait. this is bunk, and nothing more than fear mongering by lower tier leadership who want a better return on staffing costs by lowering attrition rates.

I disagree with @Thames Pirate, lack of IB isnt a career ender. Many 2nd tier ISs are IB ISs, IB bridges the career path between 3rd and 1st tier. It can be done without IB however, it generally takes longer and requires more work, but for those who have no love or despise the IB and its programs it can be avoided.

[Thames Pirate]

Once again not reading for comprehension . . . . I never said anything about career enders and certainly not that lack of IB is one! I said that those teachers who lack IB and international experience and have families are the ones stressed. This is because they are less attractive candidates to even get into ISs with a decent offer.

There are lots of reasons one might be looking for a job later in one's career that have nothing to do with one's teaching. It could simply be itchy feet. And yes, one can switch regions later in one's career. Certainly everyone must pay attention to their own financials and the pension scheme of where they are going (short and long term), but people can go anywhere they can get a visa at any point in their careers. Maybe at 50 you are an empty nester wanting to try life in Zimbabwe or you are cashing in your experience in Malaysia for life in Italy.

What it boils down to is this--to avoid being that stressed person (of any age) at the fair, take curriculum experience when you can get it. Get the good recommendations. Do 2 years at the bottom if you must and work your way up, but once you are at a decent school, stay a few years beyond contract. Yes, higher tiered schools want to see this (certainly not a guarantee or a requirement, but as a general rule it helps). Then you can pretty much write your own ticket, whether that is in your 30s or in your 40s or 50s, though of course you will still need to be savvy on things like where you would fall on the pay scale, etc. And yes, sometimes you will end up at a fair even at the top tiers, contrary to what PG would have you believe. There is no single strategy or one-size fits all model regarding retirement, pensions, and ways to get to where you want to be. There are, however, ways to improve your chances of getting where you want to go and thus lowering your stress levels.

[wrldtrvlr123]

PsyGuy wrote:
> There is nothing wrong with moving though the system on two year contracts.
> As long as you complete your contractual obligations and get a positive
> reference its fine. You will find contributors on the forum who
> "strongly advise" you do three years to show some kind of trait.
> this is bunk, and nothing more than fear mongering by lower tier leadership
> who want a better return on staffing costs by lowering attrition rates.
================
Spoken like someone who had never been anywhere been for longer than two years (and a lot less than that in some cases, "run like an Egyptian") before getting a DoDDS gig.

I freely admit to also never having been at an int'l school longer than two years (made it 3 year with my first DoDDS school before getting excessed) but I also freely concede that many of the higher tier schools will question a candidate whose career is made up of two and out contracts. It's certainly not an automatic deal breaker but they will be looking for you to convince them that they have a hope of keeping you longer than one contract if they do give you the position. Not undoable but just one more obstacle to overcome. Obviously this can be offset if you are already in a top tier school (since they seem to like the smell of another top tier school on a prospective teacher) or you are in a high needs field but anyone who says it is not a limiting factor at all is not being completely honest with you (or themselves).

[falconeer]

@Thames Pirate... Yes, I know that there will always be those who fall beyond the broad strokes that I am using in those descriptions, but they may be more the exceptions than the norm. I do think that Psyguy raises a valid point when he suggests that, if you are a career IT in your 50's and you are at that fair, it is probable that you have made some errors in your career decisions and haven't acquired the network to secure a good position independent of the recruitment agencies.

We all know that you CAN, move from contract to contract throughout your career. My point, or at least the conclusion that dawned on me as I sat in the lobby of that London fair, mostly looking around and taking notes, was that just because you can, doesn't mean that it is a sound policy; the "nomad teacher" notion, probably works well in the first half of your career, but it can have real liabilities if carried into into the second half of your career due to issues of retirement (given the number of years of pension contribution required to have anything of substance), and the general problem that at a certain point in a career, if you haven't made it into a top tier school, the door shuts and recruiters assume that if you were a top caliber teacher, you should have arrived at a top tier school by now, thus leading one to these Search fairs, waiting for a cattle bell to ring, sweating in a business suit, a stack of resumes in hand.

[Thames Pirate]

Top tier schools also hire at fairs, so don't believe PG's line about that. Sure, they also hire outside of fairs, and yes, you are more likely to get in outside of the fairs if you have a top-notch resume, but it is not unusual for good teachers with solid resumes to end up at a fair for any number of reasons--visas, leadership changes (or outright mistakes), changes in staffing, family situations can all arise last minute and necessitate finding a job on short notice. Of course those teachers would go to BKK or LON last minute and probably walk away with the best jobs at the fair. And they are likely stressed because they often have families and, unlike young singles who can take the dump jobs, financial obligations and professional expectations that limit their pool of viable options.

So before you judge those stressed folks or assume they are the exception, remember that there are SO MANY factors in IE. You might be one of them even if you do everything right. All you can do is mitigate your risks and increase your marketability so that if you DO end up in one of those situations, you are less stressed than you would otherwise be.

[PsyGuy]

@Thames Pirate

Once again read for comprehension, you absolutely stated " Those that have never taught IB", I disagree not having IB need not be a cause for stress, they are not less attractive candidates.

We disagree higher tier ISs want to see that you completed contract, and see your value, they know if they take care of you and continually offer competitive benefits and packages they can retain ITs for much longer periods of time. There is nothing general or a rule about it.

You need to read for comprehension, i never claimed that upper tier or top tier ISs did not recruit nor attend fairs.

@WT123

We disagree, fully completing your contract is all thats required, and staying longer is just throwing away seniority steps on the salary scale. Its utter bunk, fear mongering of lower tier leadership that you must stay longer.

@falconeer

Staying an IS passed contract is just wasting seniority steps, and there is no significant data that doing so increases an ISs marketability. Better opportunities whether expressed in terms of "professional growth", "new opportunities", etc are perfectly acceptable reasons to go looking and recruiting.

We otherwise agree.

[expatscot]

I think there's also an element of where you feel you are in your own life as much as where you want to be. Firstly, I'm in my mid-40s, and looked to attend fairs this year (didn't because I got a job outside of it) - but that's because this is my second career and I've only been teaching for 5 years in total.

I think your own family circumstances will drive you the older you are, especially if you have kids. That's the main reason we decided to move, and took the decision towards the end of the first year at our school. It also means that our next stop will be until our daughter finishes school, so we'll be there 4 years. The advantage of this is that we could at least say this to schools when interviewing - yes, some will simply say "but you could still leave after 2", but at least it puts the thought in their heads that we might be willing to stay beyond the initial contract.

I wouldn't have the same approach if I was still in my 20s though, and I can see this with teachers who are. They don't have the same need for stability so are more likely to want to move around (and why not, from their point of view.) They are also more likely to be able to accept undesirable areas - I would never take my family to, say, Saudi or Kuwait, but if I was young and just wanted the money I might consider them.

[Walter]

@wt123 Spoken like someone who had never been anywhere been for longer than two years (and a lot less than that in some cases, "run like an Egyptian") before getting a DoDDS gig.
Dave's DoDDs position, like his claim to having worked in Cape Town, is part of his myth-mongering.
Nearly as ridiculous is his idea that recruiters take no notice of how many times teachers have hopped from job to job. Those who do so are likely to find themselves in Tier 3 land forever - just like.....

[Lastname_Z]

So are there any good rules for how many two-year contracts one can see out before recruiters see that as a red flag? 2? 3?

[wrldtrvlr123]

Walter wrote:
> @wt123 Spoken like someone who had never been anywhere been for longer than
> two years (and a lot less than that in some cases, "run like an
> Egyptian") before getting a DoDDS gig.
> Dave's DoDDs position, like his claim to having worked in Cape Town, is
> part of his myth-mongering.
> Nearly as ridiculous is his idea that recruiters take no notice of how many
> times teachers have hopped from job to job. Those who do so are likely to
> find themselves in Tier 3 land forever - just like.....
==========================
While I do question much of what Dave now claims to have done (e.g. trained/taught in the US, Canada, UK, plus the many other places around the world) because it doesn't match up with the history he had previously shared over the years on this site and others, I actually do believe the DoDDS bit. I am also in DoDDS and what he says pretty much matches up with my perceptions and realities (allowing for his own "unique" take on things of course).

Being with DoDDS would also not have to match up with his files on Search, etc. since he would not have necessarily have felt compelled to update that information everywhere (we haven't).

I do agree that he is trying to talk himself into the fact that his ADHD int'l teaching history will/does not have any impact on his future ambitions.

[PsyGuy]

@Walter

The only myth is you thinking you know anything. Youre one of those leadership that stimulates the nonsense you have to stay past two years, because your one of those ISs no one wants to stay passed two years.

@expatscot

I agree, nothing wrong with telling a recruiter or leadership youre looking for a longer more stable position, if that puts them at ease and helps spin your pitch.

@Lastname_Z

The pathway between 3rd and 1st tier is about 6 years, which given standard 2 year contracts you should be able to accomplish with three contracts and moves.

There arent any real red flags with length of contracts, you just need to be prepared to answer the question why your moving around. Recruiters understand why ITs want to move out of the third tier. Why they need a new IS for their own kids. Desire for travel, etc.
The red flags in contract hopping are when you see an interruption or break in the pattern. Have 4 2 year contracts and you have a travel bug, great references, not a problem. Have 3 2 year contracts and the fourth is 4 years and now youre looking, than I want to know what changed in that last contract, its an abnormality that now needs a little explaining.

@WT123

How does longer stays change the narrative? You were a great IT for 4 years instead of 2, what are the talking points that spin that experience stronger than just 2 years. You have a strong reference, you have experiences to interweave into your pitch. Its much easier to spin a reason for leaving after 2 years rather than 4. If you liked somewhere enough to stay 4 years, why are you leaving then/now, what went wrong, what changed. You were happy enough to put in these extra years, and then what. Its a change in the pattern that needs explaining.
Any pattern of experience can be explained to satisfaction, as long as its a pattern and the pattern is consistent.

[Thames Pirate]

I love when PG peddles bunk. LOTS of people don't need 6 years to get into tier 1s, and lots of people never move beyond tier 3s. Lots of people are happy at not-top-tier schools. Lots of people are only happy if they are on the road to somewhere else. If there is one constant in IE, it's that everyone is different--their pathways into where you meet them and after you part ways, their reasons for being in IE or education at all, their reasons for choosing the places and for staying or going . . . . there is no "standard." The more you like to claim there is, the more people realise you are a fraud.

Two years at a crummy school is standard. Even one year contracts that are maternity covers, for example, aren't a problem. What is a problem is a resume that involves so many moves you wonder if they can't get offered a longer contract. By your third contract, you really should stay at least a third year just to demonstrate that leadership is happy to keep you and that you can commit to a job long enough to make a positive impact. It isn't just about the relocation costs, but about what you bring the school in terms of energy, initiative, etc. Of course, as a fraud and a shirker you wouldn't understand those concepts, but leadership does. By the way, those things don't mean a school owns you, either.

At least one contract longer than two years early on is a huge benefit, and if you have all two years and the odd third year, the same red flags go up. If you do one or two short contracts early, often at the schools that aren't a great fit for your career, then stay 3-7 years in one or two decent locations, your resume starts to look a bit more realistic. Obviously circumstances such as family can impact that plan, but if you are explaining away short term after short term, leadership stops buying it.

[senator]

Those 20 and 30's people walk around with that sense of unearned entitlement - a very different thing from genuine confidence -
that comes from a lifetime of being told that everything they have ever done is "SUPER, JUST AWESOME!" - and their bedroom shelves are lined with the last place and participation trophies to prove it.

They have lived their lives in a youth oriented culture and seeing image and marketing tricks TRUMP substance, and they believe that being young and verbose equates to being smart and capable.

These children usually do no better or worse at job fairs, worse in regard to top schools that still want quality and not just BS artists.

I do sympathize with you about job fairs in your fifties. My last one was in my mid-40's and though I got enough offers, I still wanted to puke.