Hello All,
I have been teaching internationally for almost 10 years around the world. I have always taught in British style schools but always with the IB DP. I have applied to a few American schools when I have moved but never received an interview. Whilst I know there are no guarantees I am sure I was suitable qualified to be considered. I mean a lot of the American schools teach the MYP and DP programs. My question would be how difficult is it to cross over to the American system? Is it just a case that for two equally qualified teachers they will always side with the American candidate?
British and American International Schools
Response
You dont say what you teach?
At school leaving level AP/IB/A*/IGCSE are all very congruent, an IT with proven and demonstrable success record (exam scores) is highly mobile between the main IE curriculum..
There could be several reasons or causes, some of the common ones:
1) Difference in atmosphere and ethos. Having taught in both, the atmosphere and environment between a BS and an AS can be very different, the feeling is that with a large candidate pool, there isnt any reason to adapt an IT when they dont have to.
2) Certain subjects such as history can be very culturally centric. A Lit IT in an AS is expected to have a deeper understanding of US authors for example. Whereas some subjects like maths have negligible differences in content.
3) Its not just being qualified, a lot of ITs are very indistinct from one another. At a certain point, very quickly its less about selecting people, and more about cutting the candidate pool down, and some extremely trivial rationals are used.
4) IS are selling not just an education but an image. Parents want whats familiar to them, mixing up the atmosphere too much meets a point where there is some identity confusion, that makes selling an IS as an AS more difficult.
5) Theres an institutional learning curve to the 'new'. Its not just you learning a new environment and system and lexicon, its everyone else having to do the same, and unless theres a reason to do so, or a motivation, thats not usually an attractive task to engage in, since it doesnt usually have much of an upside.
The simplest advice ID say is that examine the IS and faculty before applying. If its all US ITs they probably arent going to be highly motivated to break out of that mold. If you find some other westerners those are going to be the ISs that are going to be more willing and open to at least giving you an interview.
At school leaving level AP/IB/A*/IGCSE are all very congruent, an IT with proven and demonstrable success record (exam scores) is highly mobile between the main IE curriculum..
There could be several reasons or causes, some of the common ones:
1) Difference in atmosphere and ethos. Having taught in both, the atmosphere and environment between a BS and an AS can be very different, the feeling is that with a large candidate pool, there isnt any reason to adapt an IT when they dont have to.
2) Certain subjects such as history can be very culturally centric. A Lit IT in an AS is expected to have a deeper understanding of US authors for example. Whereas some subjects like maths have negligible differences in content.
3) Its not just being qualified, a lot of ITs are very indistinct from one another. At a certain point, very quickly its less about selecting people, and more about cutting the candidate pool down, and some extremely trivial rationals are used.
4) IS are selling not just an education but an image. Parents want whats familiar to them, mixing up the atmosphere too much meets a point where there is some identity confusion, that makes selling an IS as an AS more difficult.
5) Theres an institutional learning curve to the 'new'. Its not just you learning a new environment and system and lexicon, its everyone else having to do the same, and unless theres a reason to do so, or a motivation, thats not usually an attractive task to engage in, since it doesnt usually have much of an upside.
The simplest advice ID say is that examine the IS and faculty before applying. If its all US ITs they probably arent going to be highly motivated to break out of that mold. If you find some other westerners those are going to be the ISs that are going to be more willing and open to at least giving you an interview.
Re: British and American International Schools
ck1 wrote:
> I have always taught in British style schools but always with the IB DP. I
> have applied to a few American schools when I have moved but never received
> an interview.
Many American educators I've met have had a very unique perspective on British teachers and British education - generally it's about as close to reality as Dick van Dyke's cockney accent is to the real London accent. We're often seen as old fashioned, traditional, not student centred, too concerned with terminal exam results (might have a point there), and - bizarrely - lazy and unwilling to be flexible and go the extra mile. This last view has often been picked up in schools located in European countries with strong union representation.
To be fair, I've known non US admin that won't touch US teachers for different, but equally inaccurate, views.
> I have always taught in British style schools but always with the IB DP. I
> have applied to a few American schools when I have moved but never received
> an interview.
Many American educators I've met have had a very unique perspective on British teachers and British education - generally it's about as close to reality as Dick van Dyke's cockney accent is to the real London accent. We're often seen as old fashioned, traditional, not student centred, too concerned with terminal exam results (might have a point there), and - bizarrely - lazy and unwilling to be flexible and go the extra mile. This last view has often been picked up in schools located in European countries with strong union representation.
To be fair, I've known non US admin that won't touch US teachers for different, but equally inaccurate, views.
Reply
@shadylane
"Might have a point"??? I was with you until you got to this but having practiced in the UK, it is ALL about predicted marks once a student get out of KS1/KS2 (and some DSs in the UK start at KS2). Can you blame AS leadership at an IS that doesnt have have a heavy focus on AP, when its looking for upper secondary ITs. I know a significant and majority number of UK DTs who have been teaching the check list so long, they couldnt reinvent an exploratory course outside the listed objectives if their lives and their loved ones lives depended on it.
"Might have a point"??? I was with you until you got to this but having practiced in the UK, it is ALL about predicted marks once a student get out of KS1/KS2 (and some DSs in the UK start at KS2). Can you blame AS leadership at an IS that doesnt have have a heavy focus on AP, when its looking for upper secondary ITs. I know a significant and majority number of UK DTs who have been teaching the check list so long, they couldnt reinvent an exploratory course outside the listed objectives if their lives and their loved ones lives depended on it.
Re: British and American International Schools
PsyGuy wrote:
> @shadylane
> it is ALL about predicted marks once a student get out of KS1/KS2 (and
> some DSs in the UK start at KS2).
One of the major reasons why so many British teachers flee the UK. It is something that is imposed on teachers by government, not something that comes from the teachers themselves.
The other points I raise though, I do think are extremely unfair - and often based on a British stereotype that died out in the 60s, if it ever existed at all.
PS - 'might have a point' is British English for 'ok, I'll give you that one'.
> @shadylane
> it is ALL about predicted marks once a student get out of KS1/KS2 (and
> some DSs in the UK start at KS2).
One of the major reasons why so many British teachers flee the UK. It is something that is imposed on teachers by government, not something that comes from the teachers themselves.
The other points I raise though, I do think are extremely unfair - and often based on a British stereotype that died out in the 60s, if it ever existed at all.
PS - 'might have a point' is British English for 'ok, I'll give you that one'.
Reply
@shadylane
The same as the wind shapes the mountain, DTs everywhere are the product of their respective systems. It does not change what they become. A UK DT who has practiced in a hyper exam focused environment does not have an inquiry loving PBL DT trapped inside them, waiting to burst forth with Disney magic, they are what they are.
I would agree on the other points, but they are also more generalized to DE and IE than simply an outdated stereotype. Ive seen modern meds/peds in Asian DTs who are not chalk and talk DTs. Ive met AUS DTs who did NOT ride a kangaroo to work, nor talk or act like some outdated "Crocodile Dundee" persona. Ive met many a CAN DTs who do not punctuate each sentence with "ayy". Ive met Irish DTs who do not have red hair and freckles, and Scottish DTs who do not sound like Mel Gibsons William Wallace, and wear a suite, tie, and not a Kilt to interviews. Ive met Londoners who are "low information citizens" and those far outside The City who have breeding and sophistication. Ive met DBs from every strata of culture, society, and geographical origin.
All of those points are unfair, and unrealistic, but its a global issue of small mindedness dictated by popular media not something unique to the English.
FWIW, Ive met Europeans who think Brits are supposed to be like a James Bond movie.
A lot of leadership was born in the 60s
It means the same in American English too, and its equally disingenuous, one either has a point of they dont, their is no might about it.
The same as the wind shapes the mountain, DTs everywhere are the product of their respective systems. It does not change what they become. A UK DT who has practiced in a hyper exam focused environment does not have an inquiry loving PBL DT trapped inside them, waiting to burst forth with Disney magic, they are what they are.
I would agree on the other points, but they are also more generalized to DE and IE than simply an outdated stereotype. Ive seen modern meds/peds in Asian DTs who are not chalk and talk DTs. Ive met AUS DTs who did NOT ride a kangaroo to work, nor talk or act like some outdated "Crocodile Dundee" persona. Ive met many a CAN DTs who do not punctuate each sentence with "ayy". Ive met Irish DTs who do not have red hair and freckles, and Scottish DTs who do not sound like Mel Gibsons William Wallace, and wear a suite, tie, and not a Kilt to interviews. Ive met Londoners who are "low information citizens" and those far outside The City who have breeding and sophistication. Ive met DBs from every strata of culture, society, and geographical origin.
All of those points are unfair, and unrealistic, but its a global issue of small mindedness dictated by popular media not something unique to the English.
FWIW, Ive met Europeans who think Brits are supposed to be like a James Bond movie.
A lot of leadership was born in the 60s
It means the same in American English too, and its equally disingenuous, one either has a point of they dont, their is no might about it.
Re: British and American International Schools
I rest my case. :-)
Re: British and American International Schools
The main problem I've had working in British schools as a Yankee is that I don't even feel like there is a push from British educators to get away from being solely focused on exam results. For example, in my time in the US, every single time admin brought up in a faculty meeting anything about state-mandated tests or the results (even if they were good), there were audible groans from all the teachers. Most of the time, the admin would even couch anything they were about to say with "I know we don't like talking about [insert state-mandated tests name], but we have to." I hate over-generalizations, but I'll go out on a limb and say most American teacher don't like state-mandated tests. We understand why they are in place, but we hate the restrictions they come with.
In my time at a British school, it really seems like every single British teacher loved IGCSE's and A levels. I would ask them if there is a debate about government-mandated testing in the UK and they would say definitively that there is not. Most of the teachers I worked with would admit that they had files they kept, whether digital or paper, that allowed them to teach the same lessons that they had taught 10 year ago the same exact way. They would update a few things here and there only of the syllabus had been updated. They ultimately liked the idea that a student's worth to society is boiled down to a letter grade.
All of this is so far outside of what I as an educator had been taught. I will be the first one to say that America certainly does not have the perfect education system, but at least there is debate about it.
Again, this is my experience at one British international school. If any other Brits feel differently about this or think my experience is wildly off-mark, please comment because after our experience, my wife and I never want our child to go to a British school.
In my time at a British school, it really seems like every single British teacher loved IGCSE's and A levels. I would ask them if there is a debate about government-mandated testing in the UK and they would say definitively that there is not. Most of the teachers I worked with would admit that they had files they kept, whether digital or paper, that allowed them to teach the same lessons that they had taught 10 year ago the same exact way. They would update a few things here and there only of the syllabus had been updated. They ultimately liked the idea that a student's worth to society is boiled down to a letter grade.
All of this is so far outside of what I as an educator had been taught. I will be the first one to say that America certainly does not have the perfect education system, but at least there is debate about it.
Again, this is my experience at one British international school. If any other Brits feel differently about this or think my experience is wildly off-mark, please comment because after our experience, my wife and I never want our child to go to a British school.
Re: British and American International Schools
@aburr
Have you considered that the reason the US debates so much about education is because its system is so imperfect and that the explanation for collective conformity in UK DE is they are so much closer to a state of perfection?
In the UK there are no 50+ states and other regions plus a national DOE, that segregates the role of education between the US national authority (limited mostly to financing) and regional state authorities with even further authority reserved to local educational authorities, including a number of outside organizations that perform a variety of roles from community services to accreditation. Add to that 50+ exams administered at various times, to various degrees of significance, with various consequences to all number of stake holders. It is no wonder the US DE system "fits so poorly" when its constructed by piece and patch, compared to the UK DE system that is "tailored" and organized such that roles of responsibility are clearly identified and delegated by role within the DE system. DTs in the UK dont have to guess what the stakes are for them with their examinations from SATs to GCSE to A*, DTs know the importance, know the curriculum, and can get good at it, because changes are minimal over log periods of time. Theres a single standard DTs are measured against, a minimum of credentials (really only 2). There isnt any complexity, or confusion, ambiguity or vagueness. Like a well tailored shirt, it is clean, neat, and trim.
Compared this to the US DE system that can be described generously as "messy". Full of conflicting and delayed rules and regulations, a constantly changing curriculum, further interpreted by countless local "curriculum specialists", with unproductive banter back and forth debated by politicians whose sole criteria for having an opinion and position on K12/KS, education is they once sat in a classroom on the student side. "Local Control, but More Funding", and back and forth it goes up the hill down the hill.
Perhaps the reason the UK seems so collected into agreement, is because like many differences between the US and the UK is the UK has been doing it much longer.
Have you considered that the reason the US debates so much about education is because its system is so imperfect and that the explanation for collective conformity in UK DE is they are so much closer to a state of perfection?
In the UK there are no 50+ states and other regions plus a national DOE, that segregates the role of education between the US national authority (limited mostly to financing) and regional state authorities with even further authority reserved to local educational authorities, including a number of outside organizations that perform a variety of roles from community services to accreditation. Add to that 50+ exams administered at various times, to various degrees of significance, with various consequences to all number of stake holders. It is no wonder the US DE system "fits so poorly" when its constructed by piece and patch, compared to the UK DE system that is "tailored" and organized such that roles of responsibility are clearly identified and delegated by role within the DE system. DTs in the UK dont have to guess what the stakes are for them with their examinations from SATs to GCSE to A*, DTs know the importance, know the curriculum, and can get good at it, because changes are minimal over log periods of time. Theres a single standard DTs are measured against, a minimum of credentials (really only 2). There isnt any complexity, or confusion, ambiguity or vagueness. Like a well tailored shirt, it is clean, neat, and trim.
Compared this to the US DE system that can be described generously as "messy". Full of conflicting and delayed rules and regulations, a constantly changing curriculum, further interpreted by countless local "curriculum specialists", with unproductive banter back and forth debated by politicians whose sole criteria for having an opinion and position on K12/KS, education is they once sat in a classroom on the student side. "Local Control, but More Funding", and back and forth it goes up the hill down the hill.
Perhaps the reason the UK seems so collected into agreement, is because like many differences between the US and the UK is the UK has been doing it much longer.
Re: British and American International Schools
@psyguy
It's definitely possible. You bring up some good points. Personally, I don't think the debate was as a result of constant change, even though there was much consternation within the workplace when things were going to change. I think, and any other American teachers can correct me if I'm wrong on this, that the debate was that government-mandated testing ties teachers hands, inhibiting creativity of the teacher and student alike, and also relegating a student's worth to society down to a letter grade. I most definitely understand the flip-side of that coin (Well how do you assess a student's work in a classroom if not giving a grade?) and I'm not here to give answers to that. I'm just simply saying that, again in my experience, the Brits I worked with acted totally okay focusing whole-heartedly on whatever was on the A level exam and ignoring anything else that wasn't on it. I remember in America, that type of forced-blinders teaching was very much disliked.
It's definitely possible. You bring up some good points. Personally, I don't think the debate was as a result of constant change, even though there was much consternation within the workplace when things were going to change. I think, and any other American teachers can correct me if I'm wrong on this, that the debate was that government-mandated testing ties teachers hands, inhibiting creativity of the teacher and student alike, and also relegating a student's worth to society down to a letter grade. I most definitely understand the flip-side of that coin (Well how do you assess a student's work in a classroom if not giving a grade?) and I'm not here to give answers to that. I'm just simply saying that, again in my experience, the Brits I worked with acted totally okay focusing whole-heartedly on whatever was on the A level exam and ignoring anything else that wasn't on it. I remember in America, that type of forced-blinders teaching was very much disliked.
Reply
@aburr
Its more than a model of grade/mark=performance/achievement, isnt it also "accountability"? Those DTs in the US system that could come in with their magazines and newspapers, sit at their desk and show a video, or had students read independently and answer the "review questions" at the end of the book, hand out some worksheets or packets, and advance the student to the next grade, how was that benefiting student learning?
The SPED/SEN/LD students that really didnt get services, or learn anything because all the SPED DT did was lecture to the class as the students stared at the board?
What about the DS quarterback or point guard that graduated illiterate but could handle the ball well enough to get a scholarship?
Not all the DTs across the US were that breed of DT but enough of them were. Then people got angry because they were spending all this tax money and producing graduates with a diploma who couldnt do very much. Then the "accountability reform" happened. Cant have accountability without assessment.
How is sparing the students their self esteem/worth by removing grades or scores going to prepare them for the future when they ARE adults and they realize their worth IS dictated heavily in what scores they get?
You think they arent going to take exams, tests, etc. in Uni? You think a career in the government sector isnt going to involve some tests? Cant be an attorney without an exam, cant be a doctor, a veterinarian, or anyone in the allied health field without taking exams, cant be a teacher without taking tests. Cant be a firefighter, a police officer, a diplomat, an accountant, a banker, without taking an exam. Cant even drive a school bus without passing a test for a commercial drivers license. Tests are everywhere, and most of the major accomplishments or milestones in any profession are marked by tests.
Its more than a model of grade/mark=performance/achievement, isnt it also "accountability"? Those DTs in the US system that could come in with their magazines and newspapers, sit at their desk and show a video, or had students read independently and answer the "review questions" at the end of the book, hand out some worksheets or packets, and advance the student to the next grade, how was that benefiting student learning?
The SPED/SEN/LD students that really didnt get services, or learn anything because all the SPED DT did was lecture to the class as the students stared at the board?
What about the DS quarterback or point guard that graduated illiterate but could handle the ball well enough to get a scholarship?
Not all the DTs across the US were that breed of DT but enough of them were. Then people got angry because they were spending all this tax money and producing graduates with a diploma who couldnt do very much. Then the "accountability reform" happened. Cant have accountability without assessment.
How is sparing the students their self esteem/worth by removing grades or scores going to prepare them for the future when they ARE adults and they realize their worth IS dictated heavily in what scores they get?
You think they arent going to take exams, tests, etc. in Uni? You think a career in the government sector isnt going to involve some tests? Cant be an attorney without an exam, cant be a doctor, a veterinarian, or anyone in the allied health field without taking exams, cant be a teacher without taking tests. Cant be a firefighter, a police officer, a diplomat, an accountant, a banker, without taking an exam. Cant even drive a school bus without passing a test for a commercial drivers license. Tests are everywhere, and most of the major accomplishments or milestones in any profession are marked by tests.
Re: British and American International Schools
IGCSEs and A levels aren't really comparable to your state mandated tests. A levels are roughly equivalent to your APs. IGCSEs replace your high school transcripts. As both are externally assessed there is no need for SAT or ACT style tests.
Ultimately students in the US system also get 'boiled down' to a grade. Usually a % that then gets converted - from my experience - on a 7 or 10 point scale to a letter grade. the only difference, in the main, is that it's usually teacher assessed, often based on some kind of agreed benchmarks - rather than externally assessed.
Where you will find agreement, and similar reactions to the US schools, are further down the school, in primary and middle school (KS3) - where government have imposed what we call SATs. (not the same as yours - they are/were government mandated tests for students in Grades 1 and 5 in English & Maths, and English, Maths and Science in Grade 8). There you will see news stories in the English press of headteachers resigning, or teachers just refusing to administer the tests. So I guess, not that different.
Ultimately students in the US system also get 'boiled down' to a grade. Usually a % that then gets converted - from my experience - on a 7 or 10 point scale to a letter grade. the only difference, in the main, is that it's usually teacher assessed, often based on some kind of agreed benchmarks - rather than externally assessed.
Where you will find agreement, and similar reactions to the US schools, are further down the school, in primary and middle school (KS3) - where government have imposed what we call SATs. (not the same as yours - they are/were government mandated tests for students in Grades 1 and 5 in English & Maths, and English, Maths and Science in Grade 8). There you will see news stories in the English press of headteachers resigning, or teachers just refusing to administer the tests. So I guess, not that different.
Re: British and American International Schools
@psyguy
Like I said, I totally understand the flip side to the argument. It's a complicated issue and, not to be evasive, I'm not here to offer solutions. The main point I was trying to make was that government-mandated tests are seen as creativity-killers in the states whereas in the UK, at least in my experience, they are greeted with arms wide open- forgive the Creed reference. Haha! Personally I feel they do inhibit creativity in the classroom, from a year-to-year standpoint in that, like I said before, without major changes to the syllabus, a teacher very well could teach the same lessons year in and year out for a decade. Again, this goes against everything I was taught as a teacher. It's a nuanced argument and I think I have possibly caused this thread to get WAY off topic.
To the OP, my apologies. In my experience, I've seen great British teachers never get an interview at an American school and terrible ones get interviews, and vice-versa. Honestly, it's a case-by-case scenario. I think for your first American school, if you are applying to top-tier schools, it might be tough for you, but not impossible. I've talked with HR people at different schools and asked them how they go about selecting candidates for interviews and every school is different. Sometimes a computer algorithm selects the best 10-15 candidates from hundreds of applicants. Sometimes, it's just how your CV looks (no kidding on that one). Sometimes it's how an applicant answered a specific question on a questionnaire. Sometimes, someone with the necessary credentials actually painstakingly printed out all of the documentation, compared it with others, and selected the best candidates. Often times, those are not the most fun of interviews because the person you're speaking with is WAY over-worked. Best of luck to you in your search!
@shadylane
You are correct sir! :) AP and A level is the more appropriate comparison. I just tossed all of these exams together (GCSE/A level/ US state-mandated exams) in the way that more often than not, state-mandated exams are a requirement to get into US universities (In order to get into an American university, you must graduate from high school. Most states require that you pass a certain number of state-mandated exams in order to graduate.), and GCSE's/A levels are a requirement for university entry as well. Sort of painting with broad strokes, but I was not trying to make a comparison based on content, just entry requirements. Splitting hairs maybe. :)
Like I said, I totally understand the flip side to the argument. It's a complicated issue and, not to be evasive, I'm not here to offer solutions. The main point I was trying to make was that government-mandated tests are seen as creativity-killers in the states whereas in the UK, at least in my experience, they are greeted with arms wide open- forgive the Creed reference. Haha! Personally I feel they do inhibit creativity in the classroom, from a year-to-year standpoint in that, like I said before, without major changes to the syllabus, a teacher very well could teach the same lessons year in and year out for a decade. Again, this goes against everything I was taught as a teacher. It's a nuanced argument and I think I have possibly caused this thread to get WAY off topic.
To the OP, my apologies. In my experience, I've seen great British teachers never get an interview at an American school and terrible ones get interviews, and vice-versa. Honestly, it's a case-by-case scenario. I think for your first American school, if you are applying to top-tier schools, it might be tough for you, but not impossible. I've talked with HR people at different schools and asked them how they go about selecting candidates for interviews and every school is different. Sometimes a computer algorithm selects the best 10-15 candidates from hundreds of applicants. Sometimes, it's just how your CV looks (no kidding on that one). Sometimes it's how an applicant answered a specific question on a questionnaire. Sometimes, someone with the necessary credentials actually painstakingly printed out all of the documentation, compared it with others, and selected the best candidates. Often times, those are not the most fun of interviews because the person you're speaking with is WAY over-worked. Best of luck to you in your search!
@shadylane
You are correct sir! :) AP and A level is the more appropriate comparison. I just tossed all of these exams together (GCSE/A level/ US state-mandated exams) in the way that more often than not, state-mandated exams are a requirement to get into US universities (In order to get into an American university, you must graduate from high school. Most states require that you pass a certain number of state-mandated exams in order to graduate.), and GCSE's/A levels are a requirement for university entry as well. Sort of painting with broad strokes, but I was not trying to make a comparison based on content, just entry requirements. Splitting hairs maybe. :)
Reply
@aburr
I just disagree with the "high stakes testing = creativity killer", so much of it depends on the students and the DS. If youre in an at risk DS or in a district that has low SEC or in a rural area that doesnt have much going for it than I can see your point, but Ive also seen very bright students in affluent areas that do all kinds of creative programs (most of the IB IS/DS in the world are in the US) to them the high stakes test is just a day to them, they dont spend weeks or months prepping for it, the students just take the test, they usually score high and then the next day its back to creativity, etc..
I compare state level testing to GCSE and AP to A*.
I just disagree with the "high stakes testing = creativity killer", so much of it depends on the students and the DS. If youre in an at risk DS or in a district that has low SEC or in a rural area that doesnt have much going for it than I can see your point, but Ive also seen very bright students in affluent areas that do all kinds of creative programs (most of the IB IS/DS in the world are in the US) to them the high stakes test is just a day to them, they dont spend weeks or months prepping for it, the students just take the test, they usually score high and then the next day its back to creativity, etc..
I compare state level testing to GCSE and AP to A*.