If you don't pay FICA, Medicare, or state taxes you might take home somewhere around 42-44K (depending on filing status, etc.) Take those out and you are closer to 36-39K, and of course accommodation, etc. is paid out of your take-home. FICA and Medicare are over 300/month on that salary, so even with no state taxes (such as WA, where you pay it in sales taxes instead), you are paying over 3600/year.
So no, at 50K, you don't take home 44K, even in WA, unless you have some other bizarre family status.
Is this really a career anymore? Economists, can you answer?
-
Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Reply
@WT123
What other deductions would you have? State taxes, there are states that have no state income tax (Texas, Washington, etc). So what else would you HAVE to pay? You can do the math, follow the below link for your federal income tax from the IRS:
http://www.irs.com/articles/2016-federa ... deductions
A US DT with $50K in salary would first have a personal exemption of $4050 and then a standard deduction of $6300, plus the school supplies deduction of $200 is $10,550 from $50K is $39,450. That puts you in the 25% tax bracket for the income over $37,650 which is 25% of $1800 which is $450. Add that to the previous bracket (15%) cap tax of $5,183.75 and the total tax paid is $5633.75, which of a $50K salary is about 11% and closer to USD$44K not $30K, and that was with a very simple tax scheme of deductions for a single DT.
You can find the Social Security and Medicare here (from the Social Security Administration):
https://www.ssa.gov/oact/progdata/taxRates.html
6.2%+1.45%=7.65% on a $50K salary thats $3,825
Add the $5633.75+$3,825=$9458.75, subtract from the $50,000 salary and you have net after tax salary of $40541.25, over $10K above the $30K @Joe30 claims.
Id still endorse the $44K because @Joe30 is adding healthcare (NHI) in the UK and many DSs in the US would provide their employee a medical insurance policy at no cost as part of their benefits. Social Security and Medicare is more retirement/pension than medical insurance. In addition social security taxes are pre-tax deductions so you wouldnt pay income tax on the SS deductions, further lowering your tax liability.
If you can identify some error in the calculations or source material, please elaborate, otherwise theres the data.
@Thames Pirate
Theres no might. Please see the above referenced data and sources. $40541.25 is the net salary after federal income tax, social security and medicare. Its not closer to anything else its $40,541.25. not anything close to $36K, or any other number.
Yes they would be about $300/month times 12 months is $3,600 which is close to the $3,825 that it actually is, which is accounted for in the above calculations. This is called data.
So yes without social security and medicare (assuming you have a state pension that you dont have to contribute too) than yes your net would be about $44k, with social security and medicare the net take home is still over $40K.
What other deductions would you have? State taxes, there are states that have no state income tax (Texas, Washington, etc). So what else would you HAVE to pay? You can do the math, follow the below link for your federal income tax from the IRS:
http://www.irs.com/articles/2016-federa ... deductions
A US DT with $50K in salary would first have a personal exemption of $4050 and then a standard deduction of $6300, plus the school supplies deduction of $200 is $10,550 from $50K is $39,450. That puts you in the 25% tax bracket for the income over $37,650 which is 25% of $1800 which is $450. Add that to the previous bracket (15%) cap tax of $5,183.75 and the total tax paid is $5633.75, which of a $50K salary is about 11% and closer to USD$44K not $30K, and that was with a very simple tax scheme of deductions for a single DT.
You can find the Social Security and Medicare here (from the Social Security Administration):
https://www.ssa.gov/oact/progdata/taxRates.html
6.2%+1.45%=7.65% on a $50K salary thats $3,825
Add the $5633.75+$3,825=$9458.75, subtract from the $50,000 salary and you have net after tax salary of $40541.25, over $10K above the $30K @Joe30 claims.
Id still endorse the $44K because @Joe30 is adding healthcare (NHI) in the UK and many DSs in the US would provide their employee a medical insurance policy at no cost as part of their benefits. Social Security and Medicare is more retirement/pension than medical insurance. In addition social security taxes are pre-tax deductions so you wouldnt pay income tax on the SS deductions, further lowering your tax liability.
If you can identify some error in the calculations or source material, please elaborate, otherwise theres the data.
@Thames Pirate
Theres no might. Please see the above referenced data and sources. $40541.25 is the net salary after federal income tax, social security and medicare. Its not closer to anything else its $40,541.25. not anything close to $36K, or any other number.
Yes they would be about $300/month times 12 months is $3,600 which is close to the $3,825 that it actually is, which is accounted for in the above calculations. This is called data.
So yes without social security and medicare (assuming you have a state pension that you dont have to contribute too) than yes your net would be about $44k, with social security and medicare the net take home is still over $40K.
-
wrldtrvlr123
- Posts: 1173
- Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
- Location: Japan
Re: Reply
PsyGuy wrote:
> @WT123
> 6.2%+1.45%=7.65% on a $50K salary thats $3,825
> Add the $5633.75+$3,825=$9458.75, subtract from the $50,000 salary and you
> have net after tax salary of $40541.25, over $10K above the $30K @Joe30
> claims.
==================
^This. Why not just say that in the first place if you are talking about net pay on $50K?
> @WT123
> 6.2%+1.45%=7.65% on a $50K salary thats $3,825
> Add the $5633.75+$3,825=$9458.75, subtract from the $50,000 salary and you
> have net after tax salary of $40541.25, over $10K above the $30K @Joe30
> claims.
==================
^This. Why not just say that in the first place if you are talking about net pay on $50K?
Re: Is this really a career anymore? Economists, can you ans
Right, and how much would student loan payments be on that $50k salary? I consider that to also be a tax, since it's certainly money that doesn't hit my bank account. The vast majority of teachers are going to have student loans since teaching is a graduate level profession.
Re: Is this really a career anymore? Economists, can you ans
I think it's a false comparison to simply compare and contrast monthly pay checks in DT and IT. Even if you're living in a cheaper country, the costs - opportunity and financial - are more in a foreign country. Expats in professional fields get paid more to balance these costs.
Yes, it is more expensive to live in Seattle than Bangladesh, but an established Seattle DT doesn't have to pay as much for:
remittance fees
conversion fees
moving fees (most schools don't have pay enough for this).
banking fees in two countries
western food and conveniences
clean parks and air
suitable fitness centres
skype
possible double taxation
two driver's license fees
travelling to a relaxing place
recruiting fees
and on and on...It costs money to be an Expats!
much more for brokerage fees
And health costs:
greater chance of getting sick from food
travel viruses
carcinogenic exposure
immunizations
food poisoning
water and and air pollution
The IT in Bangladesh risks:
a better chance in to getting robbed
a better chance in getting in a car accident
a better chance of being targeted for scams
A DT in Seattle has the benefit of the following:
investing in some kind of Real Estate to live in (even just a shoe box)
tax deductible 401 k Pension contributions
a pension plan (yes, this now going by the wayside)
family resources to share
public parks and clean air
a chance to work part-time if needed
closer to family and friends, in case of illness
labour laws
disability insurance
owning a vehicle that he/she can transfer from provinces and states
the ability to move into another field. Experience in DT is much more marketable than IT in America. Your experience is easier to track and confirm
due process (as we know, many of these schools, including - "first tier" - don't follow due process and/or contracts)
a better shot at legal representation and more accountability from admin and students (there is a poor bugger on the other forum who was slandered by students who claimed he was a sexual predator)
tax deductible tuition costs as residents
Hey, I admit that working in DT isn't all sunshine and roses, but even with a bigger salary, it seems to me that IT has much more risks and expenses to simply compare and contrast monthly salaries and cost of living ratios. You have to look at the whole career to really get the big picture
It's like Andrew Hallam said in "poor Teacher" - IT is front loaded and DT is backloaded in benefits. What this means is this: IT's may might have more disposable income at the end of the first year, but the DT is often much better at the end of a career. You can't compare San Francisco to Bangladesh or Bahrain either - all salaries being equal. There's just no comparison in the quality of life
I think in the future, IT will only work out in the long run for people who have money, and/or for people who start investing for retirement early in their twenties
After thinking about this, I think that the biggest impact on IT has been DT. The over saturation of DTs, the devaluation of the BA/BSc, the ease of getting a teacher's certification in the US now, and the rising costs in Western countries have all greatly increased the supply of teachers
Probably a good half of "teachers" who are in IT don't even have a degree in Education either. The barrier to entry into IT is much easier than the oversaturated DT market as well
All in all, IT is like the airline industry that was once a prestigious field catering to a select few expats and wealthy locals. Overtime, the demand for flights has created these budget airlines with crappy service, communication, and underpaid and under qualified (or very qualified from developing countries) pilots and flight attendants who just want to do something new and travel the world. And the passengers hope these people know what they are doing and put their trust in them, in order to save a few bucks.
Yes, it is more expensive to live in Seattle than Bangladesh, but an established Seattle DT doesn't have to pay as much for:
remittance fees
conversion fees
moving fees (most schools don't have pay enough for this).
banking fees in two countries
western food and conveniences
clean parks and air
suitable fitness centres
skype
possible double taxation
two driver's license fees
travelling to a relaxing place
recruiting fees
and on and on...It costs money to be an Expats!
much more for brokerage fees
And health costs:
greater chance of getting sick from food
travel viruses
carcinogenic exposure
immunizations
food poisoning
water and and air pollution
The IT in Bangladesh risks:
a better chance in to getting robbed
a better chance in getting in a car accident
a better chance of being targeted for scams
A DT in Seattle has the benefit of the following:
investing in some kind of Real Estate to live in (even just a shoe box)
tax deductible 401 k Pension contributions
a pension plan (yes, this now going by the wayside)
family resources to share
public parks and clean air
a chance to work part-time if needed
closer to family and friends, in case of illness
labour laws
disability insurance
owning a vehicle that he/she can transfer from provinces and states
the ability to move into another field. Experience in DT is much more marketable than IT in America. Your experience is easier to track and confirm
due process (as we know, many of these schools, including - "first tier" - don't follow due process and/or contracts)
a better shot at legal representation and more accountability from admin and students (there is a poor bugger on the other forum who was slandered by students who claimed he was a sexual predator)
tax deductible tuition costs as residents
Hey, I admit that working in DT isn't all sunshine and roses, but even with a bigger salary, it seems to me that IT has much more risks and expenses to simply compare and contrast monthly salaries and cost of living ratios. You have to look at the whole career to really get the big picture
It's like Andrew Hallam said in "poor Teacher" - IT is front loaded and DT is backloaded in benefits. What this means is this: IT's may might have more disposable income at the end of the first year, but the DT is often much better at the end of a career. You can't compare San Francisco to Bangladesh or Bahrain either - all salaries being equal. There's just no comparison in the quality of life
I think in the future, IT will only work out in the long run for people who have money, and/or for people who start investing for retirement early in their twenties
After thinking about this, I think that the biggest impact on IT has been DT. The over saturation of DTs, the devaluation of the BA/BSc, the ease of getting a teacher's certification in the US now, and the rising costs in Western countries have all greatly increased the supply of teachers
Probably a good half of "teachers" who are in IT don't even have a degree in Education either. The barrier to entry into IT is much easier than the oversaturated DT market as well
All in all, IT is like the airline industry that was once a prestigious field catering to a select few expats and wealthy locals. Overtime, the demand for flights has created these budget airlines with crappy service, communication, and underpaid and under qualified (or very qualified from developing countries) pilots and flight attendants who just want to do something new and travel the world. And the passengers hope these people know what they are doing and put their trust in them, in order to save a few bucks.
Re: Is this really a career anymore? Economists, can you ans
@blinky
>family resources to share
Getting to live far away from family is one of the benefits of the job, not a downside.
And the vast majority of your other 'downsides' are just minor inconveniences at best.
>family resources to share
Getting to live far away from family is one of the benefits of the job, not a downside.
And the vast majority of your other 'downsides' are just minor inconveniences at best.
Re: Is this really a career anymore? Economists, can you ans
It also depends on your marital status. A teaching couple with two kids will be able to save at least one of their salaries per year in Bangadesh (50k?), put their kids in very good school with other highly motivated students, and travel regularly. There would also be the benefits of cooks, nannies and housekeepers, which are really nice if you have children. In Seattle the family would have to live in a very expensive area in order to get their kids into the best public schools. Childcare would be expensive and there is always stuff to spend your money on in the USA. No Amazon.com in Bangladesh, and you would struggle to spend much money.
Teacher with a non-teaching spouse would not do as well in Bangladesh. There is little chance the spouse would be able to find a decent paying job, and from what I've heard they would likely be bored out of their mind.
A single teacher would probably be bored in Bangladesh, and they could live in Seattle in a cheaper neighborhood with lesser schools (and hopefully commute to work at one of the better schools).
For a teaching couple a good overseas post is going to be hard to beat financially. If you want stability and tenure then sure, DT is the way to go. I have also seen a number of colleagues go back to the USA recently and land jobs at good domestic schools via Skype interviews.
Teacher with a non-teaching spouse would not do as well in Bangladesh. There is little chance the spouse would be able to find a decent paying job, and from what I've heard they would likely be bored out of their mind.
A single teacher would probably be bored in Bangladesh, and they could live in Seattle in a cheaper neighborhood with lesser schools (and hopefully commute to work at one of the better schools).
For a teaching couple a good overseas post is going to be hard to beat financially. If you want stability and tenure then sure, DT is the way to go. I have also seen a number of colleagues go back to the USA recently and land jobs at good domestic schools via Skype interviews.
Re: Is this really a career anymore? Economists, can you ans
Hmmm. In it for the money? I wouldn't say I'm in it for the money, but if the money isn't in it, then I can't take the job. I am a single mom with financial responsibilities - one being that I don't want to be dependent on my only child in my old age. I have to be able to save, not only for the future, but in case I lose my tenant and have to pay my mortgage while I'm away; in case I get sick; for summers when I want to see my family, etc., It certainly makes it harder for me to find a job, not only because I am single with a dependent, but because I cannot accept an offer but from a select number of schools where the money is in it.
As for being greedy, I don't think I would have become a teacher if that had been my aim.
As for being greedy, I don't think I would have become a teacher if that had been my aim.
Reply
@Joe30
Student loans arent generally based on a percentage of income, they can be. Income Sensitive Repayment can be as low as 4% of discretionary income ( post tax, and deductions and allowances for housing, food, and other fixed costs). After 10 years of DT service teaching in municipal DSs the rest of the loan is forgiven. However, the coin still hits your bank account, its just another bill you have to pay.
Teaching isn't a graduate level profession in the US, its at the undergrad level. ITT/EPP programs are either a major, a second major, a minor or an ACP (Alternative Certification Program), there are graduate level programs that award a teaching credential but these are typically part of a Masters degree. The closest comparison to a PGCE in the US is a Post-Bach program and these program are typically offered and provide undergraduate credit. Most non institutional ACP programs are in the range of $5K-$6k and they dont qualify for loans. Trainees complete an internship as part of the program (equivalent to student teaching, most similar to induction in the UK) and the fee is paid to the ITT/EPP provider as a payroll deduction during the internship year, after which there is no more debt. On a USD$50K salary $5K would account for a 10% deduction, but again its only for a year. A 6K program would amount to 12% for again, one year.
@blinky
I agree with @Joe30 its just as easy to consider not seeing family a benefit, and the rest of your issues are minor conveniences, that are mitigated rather quickly as a IT acclimatizes.
Remittance Fees: Arent any worse than banking account service fees.
Conversion Fees: Arent an issue if you arent send money somewhere.
Moving Fees: You wouldnt get ANY moving costs paid for by a DS if you moved across the city, across state or across the nation.
Multiple Banking Fees: There are free accounts offered by many credit unions and other institutions, and most foreign accounts have zero fees for basic accounts.
Western Imports: Well of course they cost more its imported but its no different than imported tariffs you pay on all the stuff you order and import into the US. A side from that you dont have to buy western imports and conveniences.
Parks and Clean Air: There are plenty of places with clean air and plenty of places with clean parks, I rarely see one thats dirtier than a US park.
Fitness Centers: You can find all kind of fitness centers, Golds Gym for example is everywhere.
Skype: Yes Skype?
Possible Double Taxation: Not if your persistent.
Two Drivers License Fees: So what?
Traveling to Relaxing Place: Theres plenty of Stress in the West as well.
Recruiting Fees: These are optional you dont have to pay any and can be as successful with minimal costs.
It also costs coin not to be an expat.
Health:
Food Poisoning: Ive been to regions where everything is safer than what youd find in the US or UK. SG, HK, JP take food safety very seriously.
Travel Viruses: Domestic Viruses, thats how viruses work.
Carcinogenic exposure: Plenty of that in the west as well.
Immunizations: Like what? Your supposed to get immunized, the only real difference for westerner is HEP A&B and those help you in the west as well. yes there are places that require more, but you dont have to go to those places.
Water Air Pollution: Plenty of that int he west as well, and you can avoid the OS regions that have it real bad.
Bangladesh:
Robbed compared to where? The US, lots of crime there.
A car accident compered to where, the US, I dont think so.
People get scammed everywhere the US the UK. Your more a target overseas because your actually seen as someone affluent.
Real Estate: You can buy real property in lots of places someway.
Pension: Lots of EU countries offer far better pensions than the US.
Family Resources: I dont know what this means really, but it can be an advantage or disadvantage. personally i enjoy being away from family drama.
US parks arent all that great.
You can work part time in lots of places on a work visa, and even when you officially cant you unofficially often can. Though in IE you are much more likely NOT to have to need to work part time.
You can have family and friends OS.
Lots of places have Labor Laws, like the EU.
You can buy disability insurance if your living OS, again int he EU its part of your taxes.
You can own a vehicle and likely drive it wherever you want.
You can move into another field and confirming experience is as easy as saving a copy of your contracts.
Due Process: I can sort of agree, but ISs generally have fewer rules to comply with than the mess of government regulation in DE. Most DTs use due process when they did something wrong they really didnt know about. Yes, though there are a lot of sociopaths in IE as well, at least you can resign at anytime without having your license sanctioned.
I dont see how youd get more accountability, the case you mentioned would probably have gotten the studnts a suspension, but theyed be right back in your class at some point.
You can get free Uni tuition.
I do understand your issue, the "pot" is a multi factor issue with a lot of factors and variables. That, wasnt the question though, this was focused on a very narrow and restricted portion of all those factors, specifically taxes and take home coin. Yes its not the whole model, its a piece of it, we recognize that as an assumption, and its worth our time to ana1yse that portion for what it is. We can choose to ignore quality of life and any other factor for ana1ysis. It doesnt make it wrong, it has limitations but were okay with that because we acknowledge those limitations.
There are lots of DTs who dont have a degree in education, thats were IT gets them from. I dont see how the barrier is easier than IT, generally an IT needs DE experience before they are marketable in IE.
@nathan61
I can see how your case ana1ysis could be true, but could also see how it wouldnt be true. It really just sounds like selection bias. Youve taken an optimal scenario for IE and compared it to a an atypical scenario in DE.
Student loans arent generally based on a percentage of income, they can be. Income Sensitive Repayment can be as low as 4% of discretionary income ( post tax, and deductions and allowances for housing, food, and other fixed costs). After 10 years of DT service teaching in municipal DSs the rest of the loan is forgiven. However, the coin still hits your bank account, its just another bill you have to pay.
Teaching isn't a graduate level profession in the US, its at the undergrad level. ITT/EPP programs are either a major, a second major, a minor or an ACP (Alternative Certification Program), there are graduate level programs that award a teaching credential but these are typically part of a Masters degree. The closest comparison to a PGCE in the US is a Post-Bach program and these program are typically offered and provide undergraduate credit. Most non institutional ACP programs are in the range of $5K-$6k and they dont qualify for loans. Trainees complete an internship as part of the program (equivalent to student teaching, most similar to induction in the UK) and the fee is paid to the ITT/EPP provider as a payroll deduction during the internship year, after which there is no more debt. On a USD$50K salary $5K would account for a 10% deduction, but again its only for a year. A 6K program would amount to 12% for again, one year.
@blinky
I agree with @Joe30 its just as easy to consider not seeing family a benefit, and the rest of your issues are minor conveniences, that are mitigated rather quickly as a IT acclimatizes.
Remittance Fees: Arent any worse than banking account service fees.
Conversion Fees: Arent an issue if you arent send money somewhere.
Moving Fees: You wouldnt get ANY moving costs paid for by a DS if you moved across the city, across state or across the nation.
Multiple Banking Fees: There are free accounts offered by many credit unions and other institutions, and most foreign accounts have zero fees for basic accounts.
Western Imports: Well of course they cost more its imported but its no different than imported tariffs you pay on all the stuff you order and import into the US. A side from that you dont have to buy western imports and conveniences.
Parks and Clean Air: There are plenty of places with clean air and plenty of places with clean parks, I rarely see one thats dirtier than a US park.
Fitness Centers: You can find all kind of fitness centers, Golds Gym for example is everywhere.
Skype: Yes Skype?
Possible Double Taxation: Not if your persistent.
Two Drivers License Fees: So what?
Traveling to Relaxing Place: Theres plenty of Stress in the West as well.
Recruiting Fees: These are optional you dont have to pay any and can be as successful with minimal costs.
It also costs coin not to be an expat.
Health:
Food Poisoning: Ive been to regions where everything is safer than what youd find in the US or UK. SG, HK, JP take food safety very seriously.
Travel Viruses: Domestic Viruses, thats how viruses work.
Carcinogenic exposure: Plenty of that in the west as well.
Immunizations: Like what? Your supposed to get immunized, the only real difference for westerner is HEP A&B and those help you in the west as well. yes there are places that require more, but you dont have to go to those places.
Water Air Pollution: Plenty of that int he west as well, and you can avoid the OS regions that have it real bad.
Bangladesh:
Robbed compared to where? The US, lots of crime there.
A car accident compered to where, the US, I dont think so.
People get scammed everywhere the US the UK. Your more a target overseas because your actually seen as someone affluent.
Real Estate: You can buy real property in lots of places someway.
Pension: Lots of EU countries offer far better pensions than the US.
Family Resources: I dont know what this means really, but it can be an advantage or disadvantage. personally i enjoy being away from family drama.
US parks arent all that great.
You can work part time in lots of places on a work visa, and even when you officially cant you unofficially often can. Though in IE you are much more likely NOT to have to need to work part time.
You can have family and friends OS.
Lots of places have Labor Laws, like the EU.
You can buy disability insurance if your living OS, again int he EU its part of your taxes.
You can own a vehicle and likely drive it wherever you want.
You can move into another field and confirming experience is as easy as saving a copy of your contracts.
Due Process: I can sort of agree, but ISs generally have fewer rules to comply with than the mess of government regulation in DE. Most DTs use due process when they did something wrong they really didnt know about. Yes, though there are a lot of sociopaths in IE as well, at least you can resign at anytime without having your license sanctioned.
I dont see how youd get more accountability, the case you mentioned would probably have gotten the studnts a suspension, but theyed be right back in your class at some point.
You can get free Uni tuition.
I do understand your issue, the "pot" is a multi factor issue with a lot of factors and variables. That, wasnt the question though, this was focused on a very narrow and restricted portion of all those factors, specifically taxes and take home coin. Yes its not the whole model, its a piece of it, we recognize that as an assumption, and its worth our time to ana1yse that portion for what it is. We can choose to ignore quality of life and any other factor for ana1ysis. It doesnt make it wrong, it has limitations but were okay with that because we acknowledge those limitations.
There are lots of DTs who dont have a degree in education, thats were IT gets them from. I dont see how the barrier is easier than IT, generally an IT needs DE experience before they are marketable in IE.
@nathan61
I can see how your case ana1ysis could be true, but could also see how it wouldnt be true. It really just sounds like selection bias. Youve taken an optimal scenario for IE and compared it to a an atypical scenario in DE.
Re: Is this really a career anymore? Economists, can you ans
Dear Dave and Joe,
Costs and benefits are different to people. Yes. This is true. IT has it's benefits. But within both of your frames, it is very limited to one lifestyle - unless you have two teachers earning, like Nathan says. But why the hell would I want to marry a teacher, live with that teacher and work with that teacher? I couldn't do it, personally.
Dave, my comparison was Bangladesh and Seattle. I used these as examples of why we can't simply compare salaries after taxes. There are far too many variables. And comparing across a lifetime is much more useful. I do appreciate your accounting skills, though. And you mentioned that remittance and conversion costs aren't a factor? This adds up to thousands of dollars over an IT's career. If you're invested in a brokerage in another country and you remit money into your 70's, this could add up to 10's of thousand of dollars. And then you factor in currency fluctuations and this could be more.
Neither one of you could deny - Dave, somewhere in Northern Europe with a long trail behind you, and Joe, stuck in thralls of the PC epicentre, also known as teacher's college- that IT, although providing freedom and opportunities, also comes with constraints and a limited lifestyle.
Me? I had kids. I don't regret this, but I can say that life as a domestic teacher would be far less stressful with kids. There are just fewer variables as a DT. I don't have to worry about things like whether a school will hire me because of my children. In Seattle, we have very good schools. As crazy as my parents are, they help out big time when I go back home. As a parent, they are a resource.
But if you are happy - like Joe mentioned - living in Thailand on a salary of 80,000 baht a month and don't care too much about retirement or having kids, and you just want to spend your last days drinking Chang in Issaan, then ok. That's your prerogative. IT sounds like a good racket and a young man's dream in that case... But just don't get your Gig or girlfriend pregnant. Your outlook will change.
I've been on the trail for a few years now, and I have known many IT's in their late 50's with nothing. You never see this with a DTs.
Costs and benefits are different to people. Yes. This is true. IT has it's benefits. But within both of your frames, it is very limited to one lifestyle - unless you have two teachers earning, like Nathan says. But why the hell would I want to marry a teacher, live with that teacher and work with that teacher? I couldn't do it, personally.
Dave, my comparison was Bangladesh and Seattle. I used these as examples of why we can't simply compare salaries after taxes. There are far too many variables. And comparing across a lifetime is much more useful. I do appreciate your accounting skills, though. And you mentioned that remittance and conversion costs aren't a factor? This adds up to thousands of dollars over an IT's career. If you're invested in a brokerage in another country and you remit money into your 70's, this could add up to 10's of thousand of dollars. And then you factor in currency fluctuations and this could be more.
Neither one of you could deny - Dave, somewhere in Northern Europe with a long trail behind you, and Joe, stuck in thralls of the PC epicentre, also known as teacher's college- that IT, although providing freedom and opportunities, also comes with constraints and a limited lifestyle.
Me? I had kids. I don't regret this, but I can say that life as a domestic teacher would be far less stressful with kids. There are just fewer variables as a DT. I don't have to worry about things like whether a school will hire me because of my children. In Seattle, we have very good schools. As crazy as my parents are, they help out big time when I go back home. As a parent, they are a resource.
But if you are happy - like Joe mentioned - living in Thailand on a salary of 80,000 baht a month and don't care too much about retirement or having kids, and you just want to spend your last days drinking Chang in Issaan, then ok. That's your prerogative. IT sounds like a good racket and a young man's dream in that case... But just don't get your Gig or girlfriend pregnant. Your outlook will change.
I've been on the trail for a few years now, and I have known many IT's in their late 50's with nothing. You never see this with a DTs.
Reply
@blinky
Your framing of the issue is equally limited to one lifestyle. Why would you marry a teacher, I dont know, love maybe? You couldnt do it, but again, thats only one lifestyle option.
We simply can compare salaries after taxes, read above, we just did. You also missed the seminal point of my later post. That the economic model is a large and complex model, with a large number of variables and factors. We can acknowledge the limitations of taking a much simpler portion of that model (such as post tax salary) and ana1yse it independently of the whole. We can then discuss and debate the merits and faults of that portion. It may not be useful to you, but its useful for us and others, your designation of its worth or usefulness is not controlling or limiting upon others to make such an ana1ysis.
Remittance fees and costs may be tantamount to you, and your specific scenario, and may amount to substantial costs in your scenario, but they are not the only scenario. An IT could just as easily go through their career with little if any remittance costs. Not everyone has to send coin home. Im sure @Joe30 will say good riddance once he finishes his EPP/ITT program and will have nary a cause or concern to send neither pence or pound back to the Empire.
"If" being the operative term, "If your invested", "If this", "if that", are all conditions unique to your specific lifestyle choices, they are not fixed factors of all IT options and choices available. You could just as easily move your portfolio to another brokerage house by changing the custodian of the portfolio to a region where remittance fees are not required. This is one of the reasons I absolutely love Hong Kong as you can open a portfolio in a number of currencies.
No I cant deny that IE "although providing freedom and opportunities, also comes with constraints and a limited lifestyle", mainly because its true and any further claims or statements are moot. However, as that is true so is its corollary that DE is attached to the same conditions, limitations, and restrictions in so much that as one expands or contracts so must and does the other. Further the degree of constraint and limitations is not only subject to change by locality and region and even IS, a significant portion of variability is contained wholly in ones individual paradigm, an ephemeral quality unique to ones own schema.
I doubt none of your personal experience, they are your experiences, and reflect individual lifestyle choices both directly and indirectly, they are however your choices and your lifestyle, unique and sharing in commonalities with others but by no means inclusive to all ITs in all of IE. As you say they are a result of your prerogatives.
I would agree its far more likely in my observations and experience to find ITs who have little to nothing in the way of retirement and pension compared to those in DE.
Your framing of the issue is equally limited to one lifestyle. Why would you marry a teacher, I dont know, love maybe? You couldnt do it, but again, thats only one lifestyle option.
We simply can compare salaries after taxes, read above, we just did. You also missed the seminal point of my later post. That the economic model is a large and complex model, with a large number of variables and factors. We can acknowledge the limitations of taking a much simpler portion of that model (such as post tax salary) and ana1yse it independently of the whole. We can then discuss and debate the merits and faults of that portion. It may not be useful to you, but its useful for us and others, your designation of its worth or usefulness is not controlling or limiting upon others to make such an ana1ysis.
Remittance fees and costs may be tantamount to you, and your specific scenario, and may amount to substantial costs in your scenario, but they are not the only scenario. An IT could just as easily go through their career with little if any remittance costs. Not everyone has to send coin home. Im sure @Joe30 will say good riddance once he finishes his EPP/ITT program and will have nary a cause or concern to send neither pence or pound back to the Empire.
"If" being the operative term, "If your invested", "If this", "if that", are all conditions unique to your specific lifestyle choices, they are not fixed factors of all IT options and choices available. You could just as easily move your portfolio to another brokerage house by changing the custodian of the portfolio to a region where remittance fees are not required. This is one of the reasons I absolutely love Hong Kong as you can open a portfolio in a number of currencies.
No I cant deny that IE "although providing freedom and opportunities, also comes with constraints and a limited lifestyle", mainly because its true and any further claims or statements are moot. However, as that is true so is its corollary that DE is attached to the same conditions, limitations, and restrictions in so much that as one expands or contracts so must and does the other. Further the degree of constraint and limitations is not only subject to change by locality and region and even IS, a significant portion of variability is contained wholly in ones individual paradigm, an ephemeral quality unique to ones own schema.
I doubt none of your personal experience, they are your experiences, and reflect individual lifestyle choices both directly and indirectly, they are however your choices and your lifestyle, unique and sharing in commonalities with others but by no means inclusive to all ITs in all of IE. As you say they are a result of your prerogatives.
I would agree its far more likely in my observations and experience to find ITs who have little to nothing in the way of retirement and pension compared to those in DE.
Re: Is this really a career anymore? Economists, can you ans
Psyguy,
haha, how did I want to deny people the right to examine monthly wages? This thread is a total circus! I totally admit to being a big part of it, though. These debates have gone full circle. I never thought Psyguy would be lecturing on the power of love on ISR. I just said I don't want to marry someone I work with. It makes my world too small. Again, this is a preference of mine.
I was saying that it seems that the most useful way of looking at the costs and benefits of an entire career choice would be to look at the costs and benefits of the entire career from beginning to end, rather than take one tax free salary of someone in Saudi Arabia and compare that to a beginner teacher in Alabama or London. Why get caught up in 30 day periods? I do see the worth of looking at monthly pay checks, but I think this lens is too narrow to examine a career.
I define a career as something you enjoy, can improve on, can make enough money not avoid poverty later on in life, and, if you want to, reproduce. Anything that does not meet this criteria is simply a job, hobby or volunteering, in my opinion. Your definition of a career could be different, but here is what Cambridge has to say:
"the job or series of jobs that you do during your working life, especially if you continue to get better jobs and earn more money:
He's hoping for a career in the police force/as a police officer.
When he retires he will be able to look back over a brilliant career (= a working life that has been very successful).
It helps if you can move a few rungs up the career ladder before taking time off to have a baby.
I took this new job because I felt that the career prospects were much better."
I figured it would be better to look at the total trajectory of a teacher's financial and professional life to get a true sense of what the costs, benefits and constraints are in both lifestyle choices. Yes, everyone has their preferences and their dislikes. That's the great thing about having choices. And if IE becomes a job, it becomes a job that people can choose to do or not.
haha, how did I want to deny people the right to examine monthly wages? This thread is a total circus! I totally admit to being a big part of it, though. These debates have gone full circle. I never thought Psyguy would be lecturing on the power of love on ISR. I just said I don't want to marry someone I work with. It makes my world too small. Again, this is a preference of mine.
I was saying that it seems that the most useful way of looking at the costs and benefits of an entire career choice would be to look at the costs and benefits of the entire career from beginning to end, rather than take one tax free salary of someone in Saudi Arabia and compare that to a beginner teacher in Alabama or London. Why get caught up in 30 day periods? I do see the worth of looking at monthly pay checks, but I think this lens is too narrow to examine a career.
I define a career as something you enjoy, can improve on, can make enough money not avoid poverty later on in life, and, if you want to, reproduce. Anything that does not meet this criteria is simply a job, hobby or volunteering, in my opinion. Your definition of a career could be different, but here is what Cambridge has to say:
"the job or series of jobs that you do during your working life, especially if you continue to get better jobs and earn more money:
He's hoping for a career in the police force/as a police officer.
When he retires he will be able to look back over a brilliant career (= a working life that has been very successful).
It helps if you can move a few rungs up the career ladder before taking time off to have a baby.
I took this new job because I felt that the career prospects were much better."
I figured it would be better to look at the total trajectory of a teacher's financial and professional life to get a true sense of what the costs, benefits and constraints are in both lifestyle choices. Yes, everyone has their preferences and their dislikes. That's the great thing about having choices. And if IE becomes a job, it becomes a job that people can choose to do or not.
Re: Is this really a career anymore? Economists, can you ans
Pretty odd fetishizing of economists by the OP. Economics as a discipline is right up there with sociology and basket-weaving in terms of rigor and usefulness. You're much more likely to get a quality answer to your question from a physicist (no, I don't teach physics).
Re: Is this really a career anymore? Economists, can you ans
Cookiesncream or whatever the hell your name is:
Go play with your cookies by yourself.
Go play with your cookies by yourself.