Is this really a career anymore? Economists, can you answer?

[Thames Pirate]

Blinky, did you notice you only demanded credentials from people who said something you didn't like? If you only want an echo chamber, say so. Nathan and I did use logic and simple economics (supply and demand) to answer your question.

I am not going to give you a resume just because you don't like what I have to say. I gave my opinion, which is what you wanted and all senator and co. did. You don't like it, but that's on you.

[snowphantom]

While I do agree that there is an overall increase in the number of "international" schools", I think the bulk of the increase are in lower tier schools (like the ones you are referring to in TIE). These schools are catering to the lower middle class group and thus, charge lower tuition fees. There will always be a market for upper tier schools and families with the money will always pay the high tuition fees. I don't see an increase in this economic class. Furthermore, I don't see an increase in elite schools that cater to this group. In most major cities, there is only a handful of these elite schools. The tuition is certainly not decreasing either and salaries are tied to the tuition fees. So to answer your question, yes there will always be a market for high quality teachers at these upper tier schools.

So it depends on what type of teacher you are. If you are a new/inexperienced teacher, it will take you awhile to make your way up the ladder. During that time, you'll be working at low paying jobs. However, if you are a veteran teacher who excels at their job, there will always be a market for you that pays an excellent salary.

[blinky]

Thames Pirate:

Yes, I admit, I would like an echo chamber. Now repeat after me -

I will stay on topic.

I will critically read what people write.

I won't pretend to be an expert on something I don't know anything about, when other people ask for information.

And most importantly, I won't claim to more dedicated as a teacher than others, because I have the privilege of not having to worry about money.

Are you ready? Now echo!

[blinky]

@snowphantom:


Thank you for your reply. That puts things in perspective.

[Thames Pirate]

I did stay on topic. I answered your question.

I never claimed more dedication than others. Everyone has different priorities, standards, and wishes. I simply said that there tends to be an expectation that IE equates to insanely good packages and that the growth at the bottom changes the averages and means that this is no longer the norm. This has absolutely nothing to do with dedication. It does, however, mean that the demand has changed--a demand for less experienced, uncertified teachers (who are already paid less) has increased, but the supply of those has increased even more.

Schools at the bottom are finding that if they hire uncertified youngsters fresh out of college, they can have a larger pool of potential hires (increased supply). Thus they can offer a smaller package and still fill their positions. This is part of what you are seeing.

While the top schools are still offering attractive packages and getting experienced, top-notch teachers, the overall supply of teachers has increased (thanks to the recruiting done at the lower tiers and the fact that the world is getting smaller--thus further increasing the supply of the teachers). This means top schools don't need to increase the packages but can hold steady. They still offer very attractive packages, though those packages haven't quite kept up with inflation, cost of living changes, etc. Thus little has changed at the top, but it perhaps contributes to the perception that things are changing.

Remember, "back in the day," IT was filled with certified teachers, often with some experience. To attract people in the days before Skype, etc. schools had to offer the high life, so this became the norm or the expectation. Since the supply has increased, the norms of the lifestyle teachers can expect have changed.

I think part of the issue is that we have two different definitions of ITs. One is "anyone who works at anything calling itself a school" or something similarly broad. The other is "certified teachers at expat schools"--the old school, for lack of a better term, definition. For the second category, not much has changed. The huge increase in schools means you are seeing a lot more jobs for the first category, which is also part of the reason for the lower wages you are seeing. However, the second category teachers have learned to expect these fantastic packages, and they have created an atmosphere in which all ITs expect this. Thus the feeling of entitlement I described.

[thefarside]

As an economics teacher I can say that without the data to support any of these claims it's all just theoretical bickering. Anyways, carry on.

[snowphantom]

I'll just put this here and walk away: https://www.forbes.com/sites/nickmorris ... 7284e270e3

[Jse217]

There will always be elite schools, for elite clientele, offering elite salaries and packages for elite teachers.


Can't believe I am saying this, but where is Psyguy when you need him?

[joe30]

Most people all over the world do not have a 'career'. They have a job which they use to pay the bills. No harm in seeing IE just like that.

While it's not an elite tier profession, there's some very decent money out there even if you're minimally qualified. Decent compared to the average post-tax salary back home that is, not in comparison to a wall street banker.

[shadowjack]

Blinky, the answer is no. Don't know any economists who can explain it.

But I've been in IT since the late 90's. Things that have impacted teaching overseas:
1. 2008 drove many teachers out of the US and overseas. More competition.
2. Increase in "international" schools, so more schools offer lower salaries as they seek to pad profit margins and buy that Ferrari.
3. Business has changed. There used to be all kinds of US global corporations with operations overseas. Given the global nature of business, this has changed. Much more in-country management with fewer international execs overseeing it.
4. Many businesses have cut down on family packages. Remember, the bottom line is the shareholder's ROI. If having families overseas cuts into ROI, then families overseas go, and singles or older couples with no school-age kids become the new normal.
5. Reliable players. Some schools are the "embassy" school and that isn't ever going to change. Teachers at the "embassy" school are usually (but not always) among the highest paid, while everybody else below picks up the leavings. BUT - there are fewer reliable players around, so less cash to spread around.

That's my take.

shad

[chilagringa]

Yep. I work at an embassy school in Latin America, and although it's not paid great, being Latin America, the teachers at my school have the door open to tier one schools. All my colleagues moving on this year got hired at elite tier Asian schools and are going to make bucketloads of money.

At the same time, I agree that there has been a proliferation of lower-tier schools. My country has a few of them, and I'm amazed at how they manage to get teachers. But all the teachers I have met from these schools are just happy to be abroad and not teaching in the US/UK.

[joe30]

Yes, many IT's are happy to escape the West. I know I am.

Even lower tier schools can still provide a very nice quality of life. There's third tier places in Thailand that pay around 80,000 baht after tax, which is around double what an ET makes and 6x the average local salary. Your rent can be 10,000 for a nice place, food and bills around 10,000 more, then you've got 60,000 ($1700) a month for your entertainment and other expenses. Plenty of teachers back home don't have that amount of disposable income, and while it's not ISB pay levels, it's also not ISB expectation levels either. Clock out at 4pm and go sit on the beach all weekend. I can think of a far worse life.

[nathan61]

A few things that might pertain to teaching at international schools...

Lately there has been a lot of talk of increased protectionism in global trade, and this would obviously affect the number of expat families who would be paying tuition at the top schools. I am at a US embassy school, so I was also alarmed by Trump's announcement that his administration would try to cut the State Department budget by 37%. The Economist Magazine had a big feature at the end of January on the decline of the multinational corporation. I have been at a school where a major multinational pulled out and it had a huge effect on the enrollment.

These trends don't make the future look too rosy, and most people agree the IT scene is already getting more competitive. In 2007 when I moved abroad I had the director of Shanghai American school calling me at home multiple times. I had less than a year of teaching experience. (I didn't get the job.) Now they won't even talk to someone who has less than 5 years of teaching experience. Jobs at top schools have become much more competitive in the last ten years, and this could certainly continue. I am not too worried because teachers are still going to be in demand, and you can always repatriate to your home country if things don't work out abroad. It is still a good career choice, but not as easy as it once was.

[Lastname_Z]

> I think part of the issue is that we have two different definitions of ITs.
> One is "anyone who works at anything calling itself a school" or
> something similarly broad. The other is "certified teachers at expat
> schools"--the old school, for lack of a better term, definition. For
> the second category, not much has changed. The huge increase in schools
> means you are seeing a lot more jobs for the first category, which is also
> part of the reason for the lower wages you are seeing. However, the second
> category teachers have learned to expect these fantastic packages, and they
> have created an atmosphere in which all ITs expect this. Thus the feeling
> of entitlement I described.

It'll be problematic if people on here continue to recognize only the latter category as International Teachers. In the future expat schools are not going to grow and the amount of schools catering to host nationals is only going to increase.

[Thames Pirate]

Oh, I didn't mean to imply they aren't ITs. Sorry, upon rereading I realise that I wasn't clear. I mean that in the IE world as a whole, there are these two definitions. The expectations for packages are different (for the schools at least), so they need to be different for teachers. So often when people ask "is this a good package," people are comparing the offer to the top packages when we don't know what kind of school/IT it is or the resume of the person. So while we are all ITs, we need to stop expecting that all ITs receive the "traditional" IT package.