International v/s Local Hire

zenteach
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:29 am

International v/s Local Hire

Post by zenteach »

For many years I have hoped to work at an international school where my spouse is from. They now have an opening in my subject area.

Quite a few years ago I applied to this particular school. When they found out that my spouse is a "local" they wanted to hire me as a local hire. The pay was quite a bit lower than an international hire and housing was not included. Additionally, I had never even lived in the country. We were living on an entirely different continent... there was nothing "local" about it. I will add that this is what many consider to be a Tier 1 school. Financially we just could not swing that at the time. My spouse has two passports, one from this particular country and one from the E.U. where he grew up.

This time around we are more serious about moving there. I am potentially fine with the "local" salary however that of course is not my preference. Do I go ahead and mention in the intro email or cover letter that my spouse is from there and we hope to move there? He is also a candidate with ISS, but there is not an opening in his field. Since he has a passport from this country, he can work in another sector.

PsyGuy
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Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Response

Post by PsyGuy »

Is the HOS or senior leadership still there from before?
The IS may have changed their policies or youve been out of country long enough by there definition to be considered an OSH.
A bit cart before the horse though, you need to apply, get an interview, move to negotiation and then its an issue. Until then its not relevant to include it in the cover letter/intro message. You have a spouse with an EU passport thats all thats important. There will likely be some contributors (major contributors at that) who are leadership who will declare that they have a right t know everything and anything about you for "reasons", they dont.
When it comes to the point of negotiating an offer and contract, Id stick to that your spouse is an EU passport holder, and you are very much an OSH. However what to do if leadership pushes on your spouses nationality.

THE GOOD:

Tell them where he is from, explain your history and wait to hear what they say. Things may have changed and its not an issue.

THE BAD:

Avoid the answer until you get an initial offer, most ISs will ask about spouse and dependents and leave it at that without going much beyond their names and ages. Change the subject by asking about opportunities for your spouse in the IS etc..

THE UGLY:

Omit that they are a national, they are an EU citizen, and stick to that. Its really none of the ISs business, let them go through the motions of getting you a visa letter, etc. theres no requirement you use them and stick to that. Its your contract and benefits not your spouses not your families.

THE FUGLY:

A certain population of the contributors has very strong opinions on my advocating fraud, I try I really do.
You can be single(or its "complicated" or in a relationship). Tell the IS youre in a relationship, but nothing else beyond that. You dont say where the new location is, but your spouse can join you after moving in (assuming you get a housing allowance and not housing). Nothing else beyond that really matters, and partial OSH is still far better than LH. You can then have another wedding after you arrive, if you need the health care benefits or other OSH package (flights, etc..), but otherwise, who your living with and under what relationship isnt of any concern to the IS.

wrldtrvlr123
Posts: 1166
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
Location: Japan

Re: International v/s Local Hire

Post by wrldtrvlr123 »

It really boils down to how bad you want the job and want to relocate to that city in the near future.

If the priority is getting the job and you are willing to sacrifice some pay/benefits then mention the situation in your letter which would give the school an extra incentive to consider your candidacy.

If the priority is getting the job WITH as much salary/benefits as possible then don't mention it specifically (beyond that you have a spouse with an EU passport) and see what happens. When it does come out at an advanced stage of the process you can still try and advocate/negotiate for the extra pay/benefits.

Things to consider:
If it really is a tier 1 school then the relatively modest savings of hiring you as a local hire should not make that much difference to them. Maybe they a policy covering your situation and are bound by it which would explain the earlier situation.

If you made it to the interview stage before then you have a good chance of making it this time, with or without the lure of being a qualified but cheaper hire.

I would avoid telling any outright lies in your application and/or the interview process (although the suggested fraud here is fairly mild compared to some that has been advised in other situations). All it takes is one person to remember you from your previous application or some slip that reveals the truth and your whole new life could come crashing down around you.

Nomads
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:08 pm

Re: International v/s Local Hire

Post by Nomads »

Zenteach,

I am proud to be one of the contributors who feels strongly about PsyGuy advocating fraud. As a recruiter, if I find out someone lied to me, including lies of omission, in the interview process they are immediately removed from consideration. It sounds like this is a location that you really want to go. Is it worth the risk by being vague or dodgy with the truth?

Be open, state you are applying as an overseas-hire. I agree your husband's passport status is not relevant in the initial stages of the interviews. If they want to hire you and they have the funds for that position to be OH, they will hire you as an overseas-hire. Sometimes, particularly at the end of the recruiting, some schools may only have funds to bring in someone on a local contract.

Good luck.

Lastname_Z
Posts: 97
Joined: Mon May 20, 2013 12:17 pm

Re: International v/s Local Hire

Post by Lastname_Z »

I never understood the concept of being a local hire. Maybe this is new to me because I've been in teaching and IT for such a short time, but even in the two Tier 3 schools I've worked at this has never come up as an issue. It might be that I've worked at Canadian schools and it's just not an issue there (even nationals from the host country are paid like international teachers as long as they got their teaching credentials from an English-speaking western country). Teachers hired for international school teaching positions should get international school pay, simple as that.

Could someone explain this a bit more? How prevalent is this and why does it happen? It just seems so shady (I've even heard that in some cases, teachers moving to a different school in the same country might be classified as a local hire).

Thames Pirate
Posts: 1088
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am

Re: International v/s Local Hire

Post by Thames Pirate »

Don't lie. It ends badly pretty much every time. Just list it where you ordinarily would, don't mention it where you ordinarily wouldn't, and then wait to see how it plays out in an interview or offer. If they have concerns, they will ask. If they offer you a local hire package, ask about it. If they hire you an overseas hire package, great! If your spouse would want to work with them in the future, ask if he would be an OSH or LH if the time comes (likely the latter, but it is always worth taking the time to discuss it early--not that it's a guarantee, but at least it's out there).

shadowjack
Posts: 1937
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:49 am

Re: International v/s Local Hire

Post by shadowjack »

If your husband is a citizen of X country in Europe, there is no lie in saying he is X (insert nationality here). When he returns to the country, he enters on his X passport. He never carries his Y passport, he introduces himself as an X man. If someone questions how he speaks the language so well, he can share that he grew up in a family that was from country Y, but he is X, however seeing how it worked out, he is sure glad he got to learn the language at his momma and daddy's knees.

Especially if he is a certified teacher in X, why would anybody ask differently?

Note that this only comes up if they offer you the job and inquire will he be a trailing spouse. Since his goal is to become a foreign hire at Y school via his X certification and his citizenship, he should be very open to subbing and waiting for something to come open. Going to work in Y as a Y national will possibly throw a monkey wrench in it. Either he is X, or Y, but he shouldn't try to be both.

Just my two halalas - and you would not be telling a single lie.

Thames Pirate
Posts: 1088
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am

Re: International v/s Local Hire

Post by Thames Pirate »

Lying will get you caught. Don't do it. If you are willing to take whatever they offer, great. If not, tell them you cannot accept the package they are offering and see if you can negotiate.

sid
Posts: 1133
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:44 am

Re: International v/s Local Hire

Post by sid »

Re Lastname's question about the nature/prevalence of local hire...
It's a really tricky subject. I can understand it on some levels, and on other levels it completely clashes with my sense of social justice.
Here's the rationale, for what it's worth:
In country X, a decent wage for a teacher in a local school (or a college-educated professional in other fields), comes in at around US$1,000. (It could actually be far less - $200 in some countries, or far more in other countries.) Perhaps plus health insurance, perhaps plus a national retirement scheme if it exists, but that's the full package. Nothing more. No flights, no housing, no tuition for children.
To run an international school, most professionals (and parents) agree that you need a certain number of teachers/admin types from other countries, and particularly from countries where they speak the language of instruction - usually English, and usually US, UK, Australia, NZ and assorted others.
And there's the rub. To get the teachers from those other countries, the school must pay salaries far in excess of what a local teacher earns, and they must add in packages that include housing, flights and tuition. Good teachers from abroad simply won't consider moving across the globe to work for US$1,000 a month, no benefits. Backpack or underqualified teachers might, but they tend to be more trouble than they're worth if you're trying to run a quality school.
So, schools have some options:
A. Everyone on the same salary scale and package, regardless of nationality. You see this mostly, though not exclusively, in Europe, where the laws take an opinion.
B. Everyone on the same salary scale, but locals and recruited hires on different benefit packages.
C. Locals and recruited hires on different salary scales, with the locals earning more than they would in a local school (say $1,500), but less than recruited hires.
D. Locals on the same salary as they would earn in local schools.

It does indeed feel really unfair.

Just as a side note, in a few countries, local teachers receive far more than recruited hires. Qatar comes to mind, where Qatari teachers receive a total package worth at least twice what a recruited hire gets.

PsyGuy
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Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

First, alternative truths rarely get discovered unless an IS is looking for a reason to get rid of you anyway.
Second, Nomad and the other leadership want to perpetuate the myth that you owe their IS everything and anything, you dont. Its just fear mongering. Even in the Fugly solution you arent lying. Youre in a relationship, anything beyond that is none of their business and married is true and correct you are in a relationship. What the depth and degree of that relationship is, is non of leaderships business. You arent asking them for anything for your partner, so its none of their business.
Third, in the Ugly scenario, you arent lying either, your spouse is a citizen of X EU country. You dont owe them anymore than that and if that at all. In the EU an IS wouldnt even be legally allowed to ask you that kind of question. The idea is to have the contract, be on the ground with a visa, and then you are in a much better position if they want to make an issue of it than you are thousands of miles away in another country.

@Lastname_Z

Its common, typically you find an IS has one of three scenarios in regards to OSH and LH:

1) All faculty are on the same scale and pack. This is easier and more common in ISs and regions where the pack is essentially an LH pack (salary and social insurance). A variation of this has a one time allowance for flights (either at beginning of tenure or end of tenure, not end of contract). There is no housing or other relocation benefits.

2) Same salary for all faculty but separate OSH and LH packages. This is more common in upper third tier and second tier ISs, as 1st tier ISs typically hire locals only for staff and support positions.

3) Different benefits and salary scales for LH and OSH hires. This is more common in lower tier ISs. Locals get what would be competitive for locals in that market. Whereas westerners need significant financial motivation to be recruited.

Its important to remember that neither ITs nor Students are the clients, its the parents and they are paying significant fees for what is seen as the superiority of western education, specifically in learning English and being able to make competitive applications to western Unis. To them that means white faces (and partially why there is so much discrimination in IE) at the front of the classroom. To do that you cant get westerners to come to many (Asian, non EU) countries without offering significant financial incentive. IE. a professional educator in China makes between RMB¥5K and RMB¥6K a month in a municipal DS. Thats the bottom of the ESOL market, and about USD$1K/month, you can sometimes get college graduates fresh out of Uni with no Credentials sometimes but professional and experienced ITs wont even sniff at that. As a result OSH ITs make substantially more sometimes 10x more than a local would. It can create a lot of adversity in an IS. What happens is that the local staff gets offered something like 1.5x or 2x the local salary, enough for them to keep their mouth shut and not make waves, but passively are really frustrated they are doing the same or equivalent or sometimes better jobs than the western OSH ITs who are earning 5x too 10x what they are.

I dont see it as unfair at all, models and celebrities are compensated far more than what their expertise is worth (looking at you Kardasians), ITs are the same whether the value is all perceived, spectacle, or actual, its a quality that commands X compensation, or you just arent going to get it. I like to think of it as cabin class on an airplane. First class seems nice, but what are you paying for a slightly more inclining seat, maybe a little cubicle, with a small screen TV, its the equivalent of a lounge chair and an iPad with food service that is on par with what you may have at a higher end family restaurant, or a really nice microwave meal (which is what it is) though in a couple drinks, and its only real value is in how it compares to economy class.

Thames Pirate
Posts: 1088
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am

Re: International v/s Local Hire

Post by Thames Pirate »

Lying will get you caught.

PsyGuy
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Location: Northern Europe

Comment

Post by PsyGuy »

@Thames Pirate

Really? Three words "Donald Trump, POTUS"....

::mic drop::

Thames Pirate
Posts: 1088
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am

Re: International v/s Local Hire

Post by Thames Pirate »

And he got caught. Voters might not have cared or believed the fact checks, but he did and continues to get caught. Some schools might not care,but you will get caught.

PsyGuy
Posts: 9565
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@Thames Pirate

No he didnt, it was all Hillary lies, Russian hackers and Fake News. If he had gotten caught he wouldnt have been eligible to be president, its called "High Crimes and Misdemeanors". Look at the big credit bubble, all those Wall street, and Square Mile bankers, etc.. Who got caught Bernie Madoff, thats it one guy and he wasnt doing CDO, he was doing a classic Ponzi Scheme.

Lets explore the careers you can have in IE being a good lier:

1) Recruiter (number one for a reason).
2) Ownership
3) Ownerships crazy spouse.
4) HOS/Executive Leadership
5) Director
6) Principal
7) Assistant Principal
8) Vice Principal
9) Deputy Principal
10) Spouse to anyone of those above.
11) School Counselor

Now lets look at the career opportunities for those who are "honest"

1) Assistant IT
2) IT
3) HOD
4) Coordinator

3 and 4 assumes a leadership heavy enough IS that HOD and Coordinator are essentially token (sycophant) appointments.

shadowjack
Posts: 1937
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:49 am

Re: International v/s Local Hire

Post by shadowjack »

I still stand by what I posted. If your husband grew up in X, even though he has a Y passport, have him come as an X. Unless he went to X as an older kid, he will have the fluency of a native speaker and I am assuming, certification from X. But, as I said, don't try to be both. If he is positing himself as an X, and then goes out trying to work on his Y passport, it won't be good. Once an X, in the country you want, stay an X.

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