Questions for possible career changer

geoguy

Re: Questions for possible career changer

Post by geoguy »

Hello all, I am just reviving a thread I started some time back. I am very grateful for all the advice received so far and just have a few further queries please.

I am hoping to take the Missouri entry level (initial) credential cert this summer (if the testing centre in London is open etc). I was just wondering, when it is awarded (converted?) as QTS by TCL/NCTL does the initial cert still need to be renewed annually?

I noticed advice by @psyguy in another related post (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7668) about different routes to a teaching credential (including Utah), would that also be a possibility for me if the MO cert route fails for some reason?
@psyguy also advised the OP about applying to leadership positions based on HYPS degrees. I have a masters and PhD in Geog from a top UK uni (although not Oxbridge) so may that same advice apply to me? Also, what about applying to positions before getting a teaching credential, might I be considered?

@psyguy, you previously advised me to aim for an upper 3rd tier IS - how might I know if a school is at this tier (i.e., the tell-tale signs)?
Thank you and stay well.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@geoguy

At this time I doubt the TCL/TRA will issue you QTS based on the MO initial (entry grade) credential utilizing the doctoral route, unless youre prepared to engage in a little subterfuge in your application, but they might.
Once you have QTS you wouldnt have tho renew the MO credential, but theres no reason not too, unless you just dont want the hassle.

UT only issues regular credentials to US citizens and permanent residents. MA (Massachusetts) would be an option using the Provisional pathway. This would provide you with an effective lifetime credential, though you will not be eligible for QTS with it.

Maybe if your degree was from LSE, but outside OxBridge, no.

Sure, you can shop your resume around, add the credential to your resume ad note that its in progress.

In short, Floater tier three ISs are very similar too tier two ISs, either theres one thing they still havent gotten right, and that one thing is pretty important or theyre better than most of the other upper third tier ISs but just havent risen to the level that gets them into second tier. Usually the boundaries between tiers have substantial differences between the top of one tier and the bottom of the next tier.
geoguy

Re: Questions for possible career changer

Post by geoguy »

@psyguy

Thank you for the update and helpful advice, I guess they are tightening up any loopholes to gaining QTS?

So the MO initial and MA provisional pathway are options, which do you propose would be better for me; are they both for people with doctorates? Given the unlikelihood of gaining QTS with the MO credential as you indicated, do you think there would still be value for me to obtain it? I.e. would ISs still see it as a ‘teaching qualification’?

I could also possibly gain a one year 'teaching diploma in secondary geography' from the university I’m working at now (non-western uni, developing country) although not sure if it would be recognized outside the country/region. I think my other options would be PGCEi, or return to UK for a PGCE or Researcher in School position although the fees/living costs are quite large (and bursary for Geog has been taken away from both).

Given that you previously suggested I should aim for an upper third tier IS (my preference locations are LCSA, east Africa, Russia), would any of or combination of MO credential, teaching diploma, PGCEi be sufficient to be marketable (even though none may bring about QTS)? (as opposed to returning to UK to do PGCE/RIS)?

Thanks again and stay well.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@geoguy

They kind of had to. They would have cut their own throats if they didnt. Why do induction when you dont have to.

No, only the MO option has a specific doctoral route. The MA route is available to anyone who has a bachelors/first degree and passes the credentialing exams.

Yes, absolutely, its still a regular full credential. Albeit an entry grade credential as opposed to a professional grade credential thats equivalent to QTS. It still checks the 'professional edu' box.
The MO credential. Its one less exam, but more importantly its likely to hold up better to the passage of time.

Would this ''teaching diploma in secondary geography" qualify you as a professional edu in the host country? If it gets you some form of certificate or adds you to some registry that would 'authorize the delivery of instructional services in the regulated primary/secondary edu practice within the designated jurisdiction of the regulating authority' than yes it would be acceptable in IE, though you may have more work or difficulties in persuading a potential IS that that is what it does. Even then there are ISs that insist on credentials from western authorities.

A PGCEi is a qualification it isnt a credential, though it often serves as a working qualification in a number of ISs, mostly third tier ISs. Its possible to use the PGCEi in obtaining a credential, but they generally arent better than the current assessment based pathways such as the MA or MO credentials.

The MO credential is likely to have the best proportion of acceptance compared to the greater limitations of this diploma or a PGCEi.
geoguy

Re: Questions for possible career changer

Post by geoguy »

@Psyguy
Many thanks for the useful information. I just have a couple more questions please.
For the MO credential (entry level, doctoral route), is it possible to do the test online at this time? Also how often would it need to be renewed (and does renewal involve payment and retesting)?.
Thank you and stay well.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@geoguy

Currently, yes you can take the MEGA for Professional Knowledge: Secondary exam remotely, including OS.

You need to renew it every three years to maintain validity, but if you allow it to lapse you dont have to do anything but apply for reinstatement. You need only apply to renew it and pay the application fee each time you renew, there are no PD requirements, nor do you need to retest.
geoguy

Re: Questions for possible career changer

Post by geoguy »

@Psyguy
Many thanks again
geoguy

Re: Questions for possible career changer

Post by geoguy »

@psyguy

Just as an update, I made a telephone call to the MO cert people and they said they would not accept me onto the doctoral pathway with a PhD in Geography. I guess this is on the basis that "geography" as a title is not taught in the school system in the USA (rather social sciences etc).

It was a surprise but that leaves me with the other options:
- return to UK to do PGCE with QTS
- complete an online PGCE/PGCEi
- complete a post-grad diploma in secondary Geography at the uni I am currently employed (albeit not in a developed western country)

Of the three I prefer the third option as it will be for free and I can do it alongside my paid employment. However, you previously mentioned I might have to persuade some IS's as to its legitimacy. Having said that do you think the third option is best given my situation? Thank you and stay well.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@geoguy

So you called and asked but didnt actually apply? Geography in MO is taught as a specific course in grades 6-8 (middle school), its a required course in the curriculum. In high school (9-12) American History, World History and Government are the required curriculum courses. MO doesnt have geography DTs they have social studies DTs, but no one gets a degree in social studies they get one in history, political science, psychology, etc. There are a lot of social studies DTs who do not have degrees in social studies. I can understand though your reluctance to take the exam and go through the motions just to get a denial and then potentially look at completing deficiency requirements, thats a lot of work for nothing. You could potentially take the content exam as well as the required professional knowledge exam and make the case you meet the requirements. Thats coin flip probabilities, but that may not be high enough for you given the investment.

Before addressing your inquiry, I would suggest that you look at the MA Provisional (entry grade) credential. This credential would be an effective lifetime credential, you wouldnt even have to renew it. Its an assessment pathway that requires you to complete a minimum of two exams. Some of the exams are available by remote (online) testing. One of the exams is Communication Literacy that everyone has to take, and the second exam has several remote testing options including: history, political science/philosophy and middle school humanities. You could complete this pathway for a few hundred USD over a relatively short period of time and its a regular credential.

As to your inquiry I assume the post secondary diploma in geography is an edu qualification that grants you some form of registration thats effectively a credential in that country. The problem is going to be convincing an IS thats what it is, and that its a credential and not just another academic qualification. Without an opportunity to make that case its likely to be interpreted as a PGCE without QTS. Its also a lot of work and future frustrations with explanations that you might not have the opportunity to make.
You just dont have a lot of optimal options. Of the ones you list the first is a credential, the second isnt, and the third is somewhere in between. The other option is AO to QTS but you work in a Uni not KS/K12 so you dont have the experience to complete that. I understand that option 1 has a lot of work and logistical issues but its the one that gets you QTS and theres no question that QTS is a credential. The third option is the easiest for you to accomplish, but youd be fooling yourself to think its not going to come with a degree of frustrations in acceptability and youre going to find a variety of outcomes and conclusions with it and you cant use it for QTS though the OTT pathway (its not USA, CAN, AUS).
geoguy

Re: Questions for possible career changer

Post by geoguy »

@psyguy

Yes that is correct, I wanted to call them first to clarify something about the doctoral pathway, they asked what was my subject. I told the lady Geography and she checked with a more senior colleague who said they would not accept it (?!).

I will look into the MA Provisional (entry grade) credential; I have a few further queries on that please:
- Could you possibly post the weblink for this credential to make sure I am looking at the right thing?
- Would the exam include all those subjects (history, political science/philosophy and middle school humanities), or would I get to choose?
- As they are not Geography per se, are there resources to help with revision?
- For the Communication Literacy exam I would have to go in person to Massachusetts?

Yes, the postgraduate secondary diploma in geography is an edu qualification that would grant registration that's a credential in the country. But I see what you mean about difficulty of being able to convince. Ok thank you for your advice.

Thanks and stay well.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@geoguy

I ask because the people in the call center who field calls arent the ones working applications.

1) Here is the link for the credential types including the Provisional credential:
https://www.doe.mass.edu/licensure/acad ... types.html

Here is the link to the credential tool:
https://gateway.edu.state.ma.us/elar/li ... ontrol.ser
They are all mostly the same requirements for the Provisional credential, pass the Communication Literacy exam, pass the subject matter exam and have a bachelors degree. No EPP/ITT program is required.

2) They are three different exams, you can choose which one of the three (History, Political Science/Political Philosophy, Middle School Humanities) you take. MA like many US states aggregates geography with other humanities and social studies subjects into various composite credentials.

Of the three exams the high school credential that would allow a DT to teach geography as a stand alone course is Social Science 5-12, it actually covers all of secondary social studies. Thats the credential you would want that would allow you to say "Yes, I am certified to teach geography". The test you would take to obtain this credential is Political Science/Political Philosophy, the problem with this is that about a solid third of the test is specific to American/USA specific knowledge and only about 5% of the exam is on Geography. Most of it is government, politics, civics, economics and history.
The next subject area would be Middle School Humanities, its for grades 5-8 and it is equally divided between social studies and literature/language arts. Again, only about 5% of the exam is geography and you wouldnt be able to claim youre credentialed to teach geography at all levels in secondary, but with a doctoral degree in geography and focusing on Geography specific jobs you may just need a credential to check the box that gets you in. At a certain point in this discussion, thats really all that matters. Do you have a credential in something, anything. The knowledge level is lower though and since the exam is equally divided between language and literature and social studies only about 15% of the exam is specific to US/American knowledge and concepts. You could fail the entirety of the USA/American sections, get everything else right, and just squeak by the minimum passing score.
The last exam History, has the most Geography at about 15% of the exam but more than a third of the exam is specific to US History. However, that USA/American knowledge section is very compartmentalized, its basically the: Revolutionary War (American War of Independence), Westward Expansion, American Civil War, WWI, WWII, Cold War, Vietnam Conflict. The Revolutionary and Civil wars take up the lions share of content. (Americans are REALLY, REALLY proud of the Revolutionary war, they drone on about it over and over and over throughout all of K12/KS curriculum. Whereas the far more important conflict, the French Revolution which shaped western civilization and WAY, WAY more important to Europe then some rebellious colony on the other side of the pond gets about a days worth of lecture in the US. As a result a LOT of US history across all age ranges is written about the American Revolution).

3) There are various free resources such as domain descriptors, practice tests and sample questions you can access for free from the exam provider. You can also find various general texts and sites that you can organize and align with the domain descriptors. A suggestion would be to look at the various AP (Advanced Placement) test preparation/study guides and align those with the exams domain descriptors. You could probably find some Coursera courses on the various domain fields as well and you can audit many Coursera courses for free.

4) No, the Communication Literacy exam is offered remotely/online as well. Its not a pedagogical exam like you find in many other states, its a basic test of English language fluency. If youre a native English speaker, even the Queens English vs. American Standard English you can pass the exam cold.
geoguy

Re: Questions for possible career changer

Post by geoguy »

@psyguy

Thank you again for the detailed information. I think this might take quite some prep given my minimal knowledge of US history etc. (!), but is possible.

It may in fact be worth a try first for the MO cert as I realise that Geography is not even mentioned on my PhD certificate, just the name of the uni and 'Doctor of Philosophy'. I guess on the application it will ask me to state the discipline but I could put humanities (which may be more palatable to them) and it would not be untrue. Thanks and stay well.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@geoguy

There is some value with little cost in pursuing the MO doctoral route.

Your degree scroll doesnt mean very much. What matters is your transcript and specifically the NACES evaluation of your transcript.
geoguy

Re: Questions for possible career changer

Post by geoguy »

@psyguy

Ok noted, thank you. Well I just have the scroll and the thesis as it was 100% research, there is no transcript as such. For the MO cert should the first step be that I do the NACES review? Thanks and stay well.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@geoguy

There are no classes of course, but a transcript for a research Ph.D/D.Phil will have dates of your admission and conferral of the degree, possibly including the status of the thesis/dissertation/viva (pass, pass with distinction/honors, pass with minor revisions, pass with major revisions, pass with dissent, pass at lower award, fail, etc.). It will also indicate the college/school/department the thesis/dissertation/viva was defended and recommendation came from. You cant expect that such indicators would be absent and a mystery, otherwise someone could claim a Ph.D/D.Phil in any subject simply because the scroll was not inscribed with the subject.

You should obtain an NACES evaluation first, see what it says and then pursue a credentialing route based on that. It may well be that the MO doctoral route is appropriate and even if it only leaves you the MA route they will still need the NACES evaluation to verify an acceptable Bachelors/First degree or equivalent.
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