Stats, Pros & Cons (Oh My!)

NewsAdviser
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:55 am

Stats, Pros & Cons (Oh My!)

Post by NewsAdviser »

Hello All,

I have just recently begun investigating the possibility of teaching internationally for a few years post-retirement, but have some concerns about my 'marketability' to recruiters.

Any and all feedback would be welcome.

My Stats:

--24th year teaching high school English & journalism in a public high school in mid-Atlantic region of the U.S.
--Certified in English education, elementary education, and special education
--M.Ed in reading & writing instruction (can serve as a reading specialist)
--Adviser of award-winning student newspaper for the last 12 years
--Significant history of language arts remediation/success with students designated for 'retakes' of state proficiency assessments

Pros: (At least I think they would be pros in the eyes of a recruiter)

--Have run classroom computer lab/writing lab my entire career
--Have worked with a diverse group of students my entire career
--Am a whiz on Macs, proficient on PC's
--My own children are adults and thus no longer dependents
--I have no health issues
--I am a problem-solver and very hard worker

Cons: (Only two that I *think* would be the case from a recruiter's perspective)

1.) My age: I will be 57 when I retire from public school teaching in June 2018

And....This one seems to be the biggie --- drum roll, please ---

2.) My spouse is NOT a teacher, nor does he have any college credits. However, he is a master carpenter and all-around awesome maintenance man. He can build anything and fix anything and has the resume' and references to prove it. So we wouldn't necessarily care if he were 'hired' by a school that hired me because we think his skills are needed and marketable the world over. (Frankly, it would be their loss not to hire him.)

But... Oh my!

From my reading about international teaching, it would appear that my age and my "trailing spouse" would be two strikes against me before I even started my search.

Sigh...should I even bother?

Regards,
NewsAdviser
Thames Pirate
Posts: 1150
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am

Re: Stats, Pros & Cons (Oh My!)

Post by Thames Pirate »

Totally depends on the requirements for work visas in most countries, but I agree that it is difficult considering your age. Spouse is actually less of a problem if you don't have school age kids. You would have to do your research by country for sure!
wrldtrvlr123
Posts: 1173
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
Location: Japan

Re: Stats, Pros & Cons (Oh My!)

Post by wrldtrvlr123 »

Check out this if you have not already:
http://www.internationalschoolsreview.c ... .htm#chart

Some of the info. is dated but it is a good starting point for your research.

You age will be a factor in some places/schools but should still leave a lot of the world open to you. One non-teaching dependent is not that of a big deal and most schools will chalk it up to the price of doing business. Neither factor should be a deal breaker or make you give up on the idea.

You might also think about putting in an application with DoDDS. There is no mandatory retirement age, we have schools in some very desirable places in the world (and a package up there with most of the elite int'l schools) and your combination of certifications could be very useful.
NewsAdviser
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:55 am

Re: Stats, Pros & Cons (Oh My!)

Post by NewsAdviser »

Thank you, Thames Pirate and wrldtrvlr123, for your responses.

Yes, I had read through the link provided and that was one of the reasons I became disheartened. I was especially disappointed to see the age cap on work Visas to Australia is 55. My husband has family there with dual citizenship who own a family business.

I had been thinking (dreaming?) that I could land a job there --perhaps even in a remote Aboriginal school-while he lived/worked with family. He could then take a bush plane to visit occasionally or visa versa. Were it not for the age cap on work Visas, that might have been a viable plan for us.

Still, I think I will continue to investigate our options as we would really like to spend a few years on a working adventure of sorts while hopefully saving up some serious cash. Our ultimate goal would be to sell our current home, bank the equity, work income-tax free and housing paid. We would like to save enough in a few year's time to come back and combine our equity to buy a decent but modest house for cash and live out our golden years mortgage-free.

I don't think it is an idea completely out of the realm of possibilities, but one that will require ample research, tenacity, and certainly, compromise.

And thank you for the idea of the Department of Defense Schools. Their salary guide is certainly appealing. I wonder if housing is included in the contract?

Warmly,
N.A.
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Reponse

Post by PsyGuy »

Your age is going to be a huge problem, if youre not in leadership by mid 50s you need to be comfortable retiring out where you are.

As to your Pros:

1) ISs dont have computer labs much anymore, more and more ISS are going to 1:1 programs, what labs do exist are in ICT and the Library.

2) Writing lab is ESOL Learning Support.

3) Cats can use a Mac, how are you in Google Apps and Classroom? ISs usually use some combination of Apple hardware and Chromebooks with standard office software and Google Apps. How are you on classroom management and digital grade books?

4) Having adult kids is basically not having kids.

5) Everyone has health issues, you just dont know it yet. Thats what a recruiters going to think, how long until you have an aneurysm and stroke out?

6) This is like a millennial saying "they have great communication skills" on their resume. Everyones a problem solver, if your not solving problems you probably arent teaching. Everyone says the are a hard worker, no one says "Im lazy, and want to do just enough to get my contract renewed".

Disadvantages:

1) Sorry your age is past the turn.

2) Does your spouse speak the local language? Thats what they would need to function on the maintenance team at an IS? How would you feel about making "local" wages? How would they qualify for an unskilled labor work permit as a OSH?

Preliminary Advice:

1) Your spouse would likely qualify even without a degree for a teaching credential in Career And Technical Education in industrial arts or the like. Then your spouse would be more marketable as a design technology IT.

2) Can you move into admin? You have all the academics, you could take the ETS SLLA exam and apply for your administrator credential, even if you werent an administrator it would provide an avenue for an IS to bring you in through an executive level or upper management pathway with immigration.

3) You are what we call a tourist teacher, and any recruiter is going to be thinking that. Id market yourself as not ready to leave the classroom, still have a lot to give and offer students.

4) Understand you will take a cut in comp.

5) Dont bother with a fair, it will just be frustrating and depressing for you. I wouldnt even bother with one of the premium agencies.

Followup:

You dont need a work visa, your married to a citizen, you can get a spouse/partner visa which circumvents the age limit. You can absolutely relocate to AUS.

Yes, DoDDS provides LQA (Living Quarters Assistance) its not lavish but its very generous. You also get TQSA when you arrive either on the base motel or an off base hotel.
Overhere
Posts: 497
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:29 am

Re: Stats, Pros & Cons (Oh My!)

Post by Overhere »

Would discouraging prospects of employment overseas alter your retirement plans? If so, then your cons should be given more weight. However, if you are going to retire anyway and have the energy and passion to move overseas then what cost is there to try? Sure, if you go with Search or ISS there will be a registration cost, but there are plenty of other options out there that cost less. You just need to be prepared to go anywhere and be open to a wide variety of schools.

If you are retiring anyway then I don't see a downside to trying. What's the worst that can happen, you could end up retired in the states pursuing other passions.
chilagringa
Posts: 335
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:19 pm

Re: Stats, Pros & Cons (Oh My!)

Post by chilagringa »

I've known plenty of older people to be hired in Mexico and Central America because the region doesn't pay as well so schools can't be as picky. But if you're already retiring on a pension, who cares? The lifestyle is great.
NewsAdviser
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:55 am

Re: Stats, Pros & Cons (Oh My!)

Post by NewsAdviser »

Thank you all for your kind, candid, and encouraging responses. You have given me much to think about and investigate.

Just to clarify, it is not my spouse who has dual citizenship -- it is his sibling who has lived in Australia for the past 40 years (born in U.S.) who runs a family business. That is why I originally began investigating the logistics of an international teaching stint in Australia.

Indeed it does seem what is considered "too old" in one country may be considered "experienced" in another.

And I have been called worse things than a "tourist teacher," lol. <<<shrug>>>

LOL, too, at the mention of "stroking out" -- I would think that possibility would cross a recruiter's mind just as often as to wonder how long before a younger teacher got pregnant and there would be a maternity leave and more dependents to contend with.

But waddaiknow?

Regarding my computer and classroom management skills:

* I have used an online grade book for the last 15 years; my district just adopted a new one (fifth one in 15 years) that is complete with all the new bells & whistles. I am always one of the first ones trained by our Tech Department in any new application and then used as a staff development "turn key" coordinator to teach other teachers. I don't know if my capacity as workshop coordinator on Professional Development days would count as leadership or not, but it is worth mentioning.

* I don't know anything about Google classroom, but I imagine it is similar to Microsoft Office 365's Classroom application of which I am familiar.

* Have been observed and documented through the Marzano model of teacher evaluations for the last four years. My scores range from a low of 3.2 to a high of 3.6 with an average of 3.4. Still, no one in my district gets much better than that, so I am content with my solidly "Effective" score.

* I have been trained in, and expected to perform to, the Harry Wong model of classroom management; that is to say---it's all about Procedures, Procedures, Procedures.

Still, great advice and suggestions -- particularly: my husband teaching Industrial Arts, me taking the administrator's test and looking toward Central & South America. That region might actually suit us fine as my husband does speak conversational Spanish, having grown up in Southwestern U.S.

It's never too early to start looking ahead and while I definitely do plan to retire from my current position in June 2018, I really don't feel I will be ready to hang up my teaching shoes, so that would not at all be a lie.

Again, thank you all for your time and thoughtful replies.

Warm regards,
NewsAdviser
NewsAdviser
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:55 am

Re: Stats, Pros & Cons (Oh My!)

Post by NewsAdviser »

Oh -- forgot to mention -- this past summer I did a stint at a state university's continuing ed department as a career coach. So technically I am adjunct faculty at the university level. Does anyone think THAT would help get me past the 55-year cap in Australia?
PsyGuy
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Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@NewsAdviser

The problem with @overhere is that your investment is more then economic, theres first the cognitive commitment of time and second the affective psychological component. There are melt downs at fairs and all kinds of feelings about being passed over with no end in sight. You could send a 1000 apps out and not get a single interview.

LCSA is a popular destination with those ITs looking at semi-retirement who have well funded retirement plans.

There are a lot more regions where your age is too old as opposed to experienced.

No pregnancy is less an issue, pregnancy is celebrated, dyeing is tragic. A maternity cover is just that a cover vacancy. Dyeing needs a replacement. Pregnancy is planed, dyeing is spontaneous. There is also a higher cost for more aged ITs.

Day trainer isnt leadership, no more than a workshop leader is. Leadership at the bottom is HOD/Dept. Chair. Its worth mentioning though.

MS classroom and Google classroom are similar, thee is a lot more to Google classroom but youd adapt pretty quickly.

ISs dont usually use formal IT evaluation instruments, Marzano is pop.ed in IE. Many of his models and concepts arent applicable in IE. Marzano is about rehabilitating risk factors in regulated DE. Your scores wouldnt have much positive impact in IE. Your better claiming to have the strongest evaluations in your district for classroom management and hold back the evaluations unless really pressed.

Wong is passed the turn on the far side of the wheel, its become adapted into PEP the role of procedures and routine into classroom management and organization. There are still hold out that have Wong as their mantra, but its dated to cite Wong in PEP.

What is the Uni your faculty appointment is too? If its an Ivy or a Int. destination Uni that would have some marketability assuming you have a a rank that contains "Prof."
NewsAdviser
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:55 am

Re: Stats, Pros & Cons (Oh My!)

Post by NewsAdviser »

@PsyGuy,

Thanks again. Your feedback is very much welcomed.

I worked for Penn State this past summer in a gig funded by a special summer grant.

My title was 'career coach' through the continuing ed department. A more prestigious wording of the title might be: "career instructor," lol. Still, it is my understanding no one can appropriately be called "prof" at any university or college unless s/he has earned a PhD.

With my master's degree, (in the U.S. at least), I could teach a number of undergrad courses in writing, literature, journalism, and/or teacher preparation at local community colleges and/or state universities. Ivy Leagues, of which there are several in my area, are generally out of my ball park, except, perhaps, as a last-minute hire as an adjunct.

I am beginning to think perhaps the strongest aspect of my resume' would be in the form of references from my journalism students and their parents. I have a number who have earned paid summer internships at local and regional newspapers. I also have many who have gone on to be editors and editors in chief at a variety of colleges and universities up and down the East Coast -- a few even at such Ivy League schools as Harvard & Lehigh. And I have stopped counting the number of former students who have gone on to launch successful careers in the journalism/communications industry. Many of them still keep in contact with me. And when I say the student newspaper for which I have been and am currently adviser is an award-winning one, I mean we have been named, essentially, best-in-state, multiple times under my advisement. Time and again we have been encouraged to enter national competitions, but frankly, it's very time-consuming and costly to do so, and I'd really rather spend my time doing what I most enjoy: working with my students to become stronger writers/reporters/editors/layout designers/advertisers.

So I don't necessarily have elitist aspirations at the top of my agenda, although I have earned my fair share of accolades for work well done. And truth be told, I much prefer working with common folk as I find them to be less pretentious and generally, speaking, more teachable. (They also have a way of keeping me teach-able.) For similar reasons I have never aspired to be an administrator, lead teacher or department head, although once upon a time I was indeed encouraged to do so. Suffice it to say I just cannot tolerate back-stabbing and brown-nosing, whether it be on the giving or receiving end. That kind of stuff literally makes my skin crawl and it doesn't matter if it's students, parents, colleagues, or superiors.

That said, I just might have the potential in me yet to be a director/administrator at the "right" kind of school. And I don't even know what I mean by "right" -- I would just know it if the opportunity should present itself. And thank you for the idea of taking the administrator's test.

Interesting-- your feedback about Wong. I have a similar perception -- an old wheel re-invented, but it's all the rage in my area and if a young upstart wants to get hired, s/he will have a binder of "Classroom Management" procedures. (We oldies must merely demonstrate half-a-binder's worth.)

Interesting, too, your perceptions about the Marzano model. He is model is frequently used to evaluate teachers in DE in this part of the US. But my perception differs from yours in that I see the institution of his model more as an answer as to how to advance political pension reform agendas than as an answer to rehabilitation needs. I mean, the district I work for always surpasses state averages in state standardized testing scores, so the data would seem to indicate not in need of rehabilitation. At least I am fairly certain that rehabilitation of the students' learning and teachers' methodologies is not the actual agenda. ; )

Nevertheless, as I write, I have over 120 essays to read, comment upon, correct, and grade. I'd better stop thinking about the future for now, get myself off this very interesting forum, and onto the tasks at hand. : o

Thanks again for everyone's feedback and best of luck in all your endeavors.

Write on --
N.A.
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@NewsAdviser

If you dont have enough recent bullet points for PD on your resume the Penn State position would be worth a spot.

Thats not true. First, there are many titles of doctoral degrees that are not a Doctor of Philosophy. Second, "professor" is a rank used and recognized globally in academia, it is however not regulated. Third, You can have a Masters and be at a community college or junior college and be appointed the rank of professor. Fourth, even in Universities there are many faculty members in the arts that have MFAs and other Masters degrees that have the rank of professor. You can find a number of junior faculty in business departments that have MBAs that are Masters degrees. Fifth, there are faculty with professor rank that have Bachelors degrees in community colleges and junior colleges in various vocational and career education departments. I once met an associate professor who was chair of the esthetics and cosmetology department who didnt even have a Bachelors degree.

Thats not true, you dont need a doctorate to teach at an Ivy. Junot Diaz has an MFA and hes a professor at MIT (assuming you consider MIT an Ivy). Im reasonably sure if Colin Powell (who has a Masters degree) wanted to teach politics at any Ivy hed be appointed as a professor, and if Bill Gates (who never completed his Bachelors at Harvard) wanted to teach Business at an Ivy, hed be appointed as a professor (likely a named chair, but professor none the less).

Your journalism while nice, you have accomplished much success with your students, is at best going to be a single class elective, and most likely an ASP. Yes its very impressive in DE, but in IE a lot of ITs have stories of influencing students lives, who have gone on to do noteworthy accomplishments as adults. I have no doubt you have done well within your environment and that your contributions are both meritorious and celebratory, but move into IE and your in a room with a lot of candidates who have similar accomplishments. All of those accomplishments dont mean much if the IS doesnt have a journalism program. It still comes down to what scores will your students get in their AP/DIP/A* exams.

Some of the better ISs certainly have an elitist atmosphere. Sure on one end you can find a lot of humbles and humility but there are just as many ISs that are essentially elite independent ISs. Some of the elite BSs live up to exactly what you would expect from an elitist boarding prep DS.Finding young people and their parents who think they are better than everyone else doesnt take long to find.

Being an administrator, and having that credential at worst gives an IS a pathway to sponsor a work visa for you as an executive/management immigration pathway.

I know little about Delaware, accept all my US credit cards are from there, and that its east coast and was maybe once a colony, I could find it on a map if you gave me a few minutes.
NewsAdviser
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:55 am

Re: Stats, Pros & Cons (Oh My!)

Post by NewsAdviser »

@ Psy Guy--

Again, thank you.

I am not in Delaware, lol, but close. I was using "DE" as an acronym for "Domestic Education". ; )

Regards,
N.A.
Nomads
Posts: 152
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:08 pm

Re: Stats, Pros & Cons (Oh My!)

Post by Nomads »

Newsadvisor,

Go for it. There will be some schools who will shy aways due to age restrictions, but there are many that don't start until 65 or later. You years of experience will serve you well.

The question some will ask is how happy will your husband be if he cannot find work. In many countries, he would be prevented for working due to visa issues or because the host country carpenters would be charging far less for the same job.

As a recruiter that would be my main question, as spouses who are unhappy will significantly limit how long a teacher stays in country.
NewsAdviser
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:55 am

Re: Stats, Pros & Cons (Oh My!)

Post by NewsAdviser »

Thank you for the encouraging response, Nomads. It is very much appreciated. (As is all feedback from all posters.)

Yes, indeed, there is much to consider, not the least of which is the viability and contentment of my husband. He would be miserable sitting around a flat and/or working for mere peanuts. He is, however, quite adaptable and quite handy in many regards which I did not mention earlier -- including installation and troubleshooting of computer hardware, network wiring, and server maintenance. No, he does not have, nor does have the desire to pursue, the "paperwork" to prove his efficacy in these areas. It is just something he has branched into as a self-employed contractor and has not only quickly learned, but has proven himself to be just as competent as, (if not more so), than the younger men he works with who have the academic credentials.

Nevertheless, as a result of this discussion/thread, my current thinking is that our three best options, in terms of desired areas and employability/contentment level for both of us would be:

1.) Seeking a waiver (or whatever the correct term is) on the 55 age limit cap on work Visas to Australia. As explained above, Australia, and more specifically, Western Australia, is the part of the world I would most like to teach and the area where my husband would be guaranteed employment as well as housing. Heck, in that scenario, we could even bring our dog. (Assuming we could jump through the hoops to do so.) Again, I understand that getting past the age limit cap might prove difficult, if not impossible, but I intend to investigate those parameters for "loopholes". If that means I need to take and pass an administrator's test to qualify as an "expert," then I will do so. I don't know, however, how we would get my husband in as an "expert," considering his lack of academic credentials. Still, Australia IS seeking skilled laborers....so there might be a way...

2.) Similarly, working in a DoD setting would probably work well for us if he could land a job through the same venue and in the same general location. I understand this scenario might also prove difficult, if not impossible, given our age and differences in employment background, but again, I intend to investigate.

3.) The notion of teaching/relocating/working in Central or South America presents as an option, too. Although I am not thrilled to learn about the lower wages, being respected for one's experience, regardless of one's age level, would be a huge plus for me, and we do feel my husband would be employable at relatively reasonable rates, given his experience and ability to converse in Spanish. While I myself am not as proficient as he, I have had a lot of experience with ESL students in my remedial English classes and so I feel I could learn Spanish quickly via a teach-yourself-at-home program. Plus, if I could land a position on or near a lovely, non-tourist-y BEACH, I'd pack my bags tomorrow! ; )

For certain I don't have an interest in teaching in or relocating to the Middle East or China. The UK might be OK, as might Japan, the Philippines, or even somewhere remote within the U.S., like Alaska or Hawaii. (The Big Island would be REALLY nice!!!)

I realize "beggars can't be choosers," but we are not necessarily begging to be hired or to go anywhere. If nothing else, our experience and age gives us the hard-earned freedom to explore options and decide if we wish to pursue them. Plus, there are plenty of ventures/possibilities for semi-retired 'old' folks right here at home...

In the meantime, we both have full-time jobs that require far more than a mere 40-hour work week and I imagine that will continue to be the case for the foreseeable future. So much to do...so little time... sigh...

Still, it's nice to have dreams, and thank you for your feedback in exploring them.

Warm regards,
N.A.
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