Hi,
I'm starting a PGCE in the UK this September, so should be qualified around July 2017. PGCE is in Primary education. Not such a 'competitive' field I know, but quite frankly I suck at high level Maths and Science. My undergrad degree is in History.
Up until this point, I've been working in ESL. Have 2 years experience there, one year in a Monday-Friday private bilingual school, the other in an after school language centre. I'm aware this experience isn't going to be valued at all by international schools, but just giving you all a picture of where I'm at so far.
I have no desire to work in the UK state school system. Essentially the reason I'm doing this PGCE is because I enjoy life outside the UK, but ESL salaries aren't great and you're very restricted in your options, so I'm trying to upgrade my lot in life.
So after I've finished this PGCE, I'm really wanting to get a job at an international school and not complete the NQT induction year. I know that is instantly going to put me at the bottom of the barrel schools (though hopefully still significantly higher than what I was earning in ESL). The long term goal is going to be to work my way up to a nice tier 2/lower tier 1 school (i.e. decent money albeit not mega riches, but a nice work-life balance too).
My questions are, as a PGCE qualified teacher with no experience, what countries/schools would be realistic options? Most of the schools that I want to be working at long term seem to value IB experience, so that's something I'd really like to get on the resume as quickly as possible. Would like to make enough money to put some into savings/decent vacations if possible, but I guess beggars can't be choosers, and I'll have more options after my first 2 year contract. I'm interested in China, Vietnam, Singapore, Thailand and Hong Kong. Less interested in anything in the Middle East though I suppose I'll bite the bullet if I absolutely must. If it makes any difference, I'm single, no kids, no teaching spouse.
Staying in the UK for 2 years post qualification really isn't an option for me. One year in that country is quite enough as it is!
Starting international teaching after PGCE - options?
Re: Starting international teaching after PGCE - options?
I think some British international schools are now able to let you complete your NQT year. Check out the council of British international schools (cobis).
I was like you and had taught ESL overseas before. But I ended up doing a few years in the UK after my PGCE Primary (Early Years). I really found them invaluable as I felt confident and more experienced with my teaching by the time I went overseas. I was able to get a job at my first choice international school too. Don't forget, as an NQT in the UK you get a lot of extra support, extra non-contact time etc. It's really helpful for your development as a teacher as well as your sanity! I can't imagine being thrown in the deep end at a poor international school where there is the potential to have no support, a poor curriculum/resources etc.
If you really want to go straight abroad that is, of course, your personal choice. So I would definitely research which British schools allow you to complete your NQT there.
I was like you and had taught ESL overseas before. But I ended up doing a few years in the UK after my PGCE Primary (Early Years). I really found them invaluable as I felt confident and more experienced with my teaching by the time I went overseas. I was able to get a job at my first choice international school too. Don't forget, as an NQT in the UK you get a lot of extra support, extra non-contact time etc. It's really helpful for your development as a teacher as well as your sanity! I can't imagine being thrown in the deep end at a poor international school where there is the potential to have no support, a poor curriculum/resources etc.
If you really want to go straight abroad that is, of course, your personal choice. So I would definitely research which British schools allow you to complete your NQT there.
Re: Starting international teaching after PGCE - options?
pinkstar wrote:
> I think some British international schools are now able to let you complete
> your NQT year. Check out the council of British international schools
> (cobis).
>
> I was like you and had taught ESL overseas before. But I ended up doing a
> few years in the UK after my PGCE Primary (Early Years). I really found
> them invaluable as I felt confident and more experienced with my teaching
> by the time I went overseas. I was able to get a job at my first choice
> international school too. Don't forget, as an NQT in the UK you get a lot
> of extra support, extra non-contact time etc. It's really helpful for your
> development as a teacher as well as your sanity! I can't imagine being
> thrown in the deep end at a poor international school where there is the
> potential to have no support, a poor curriculum/resources etc.
>
> If you really want to go straight abroad that is, of course, your personal
> choice. So I would definitely research which British schools allow you to
> complete your NQT there.
Completing the NQT year abroad would be ideal, but from my research on this forum it seems to suggest finding a school that would be willing to take me on to do that would require quite a lot of luck. But there also seemed to be general consensus that after a few years on the circuit, not completing the NQT year wouldn't really make a difference, and after that it'd be all about my results, references, and interview technique.
Regarding sanity...the best thing for mine would be to get out of the UK as soon as possible, even if it makes my first job more stressful. I consider my homeland of the UK to be as much of a hardship location as the worst places in the Middle East, to be honest. Already spent 24 years of my life there miserable so I'm certainly not spending 3 more - one is enough!
Of the countries I listed (Vietnam, China, Hong Kong, Singapore, Thailand) what sounds the most likely? The ESF scheme in Hong Kong looks great but I don't know if they would take an NQT. Vietnam would be great too but again I'm not sure how my resume would be viewed. I'm assuming South Korea and Japan would not be possible at this stage for me (though if they are, I'd certainly be open to going there too).
Basically initially I'd be looking for any job that can give the IB experience - preferably outside the Middle East, but it's not a total deal breaker if I have to move there. Open to pretty much anywhere, I figure my first job should be mainly focused on landing a good school, get that all important IB experience in, then I can decide what my next move is - whether that would be staying at the first school or moving on to another. Would like to avoid South America, simply because after this PGCE I'm going to be up to my eyeballs in bank loans and overdrafts, so will need to be able to save a bit of money too.
> I think some British international schools are now able to let you complete
> your NQT year. Check out the council of British international schools
> (cobis).
>
> I was like you and had taught ESL overseas before. But I ended up doing a
> few years in the UK after my PGCE Primary (Early Years). I really found
> them invaluable as I felt confident and more experienced with my teaching
> by the time I went overseas. I was able to get a job at my first choice
> international school too. Don't forget, as an NQT in the UK you get a lot
> of extra support, extra non-contact time etc. It's really helpful for your
> development as a teacher as well as your sanity! I can't imagine being
> thrown in the deep end at a poor international school where there is the
> potential to have no support, a poor curriculum/resources etc.
>
> If you really want to go straight abroad that is, of course, your personal
> choice. So I would definitely research which British schools allow you to
> complete your NQT there.
Completing the NQT year abroad would be ideal, but from my research on this forum it seems to suggest finding a school that would be willing to take me on to do that would require quite a lot of luck. But there also seemed to be general consensus that after a few years on the circuit, not completing the NQT year wouldn't really make a difference, and after that it'd be all about my results, references, and interview technique.
Regarding sanity...the best thing for mine would be to get out of the UK as soon as possible, even if it makes my first job more stressful. I consider my homeland of the UK to be as much of a hardship location as the worst places in the Middle East, to be honest. Already spent 24 years of my life there miserable so I'm certainly not spending 3 more - one is enough!
Of the countries I listed (Vietnam, China, Hong Kong, Singapore, Thailand) what sounds the most likely? The ESF scheme in Hong Kong looks great but I don't know if they would take an NQT. Vietnam would be great too but again I'm not sure how my resume would be viewed. I'm assuming South Korea and Japan would not be possible at this stage for me (though if they are, I'd certainly be open to going there too).
Basically initially I'd be looking for any job that can give the IB experience - preferably outside the Middle East, but it's not a total deal breaker if I have to move there. Open to pretty much anywhere, I figure my first job should be mainly focused on landing a good school, get that all important IB experience in, then I can decide what my next move is - whether that would be staying at the first school or moving on to another. Would like to avoid South America, simply because after this PGCE I'm going to be up to my eyeballs in bank loans and overdrafts, so will need to be able to save a bit of money too.
Re: Starting international teaching after PGCE - options?
>>>>But there also seemed to be general consensus that after a few years on the circuit, not completing the NQT year wouldn't really make a difference, and after that it'd be all about my results, references, and interview technique.
Where did you read that? I don't claim to know the answer but I would have thought doing your NQT year was really important.
>>>>>>Of the countries I listed (Vietnam, China, Hong Kong, Singapore, Thailand) what sounds the most likely? The ESF scheme in Hong Kong looks great but I don't know if they would take an NQT. Vietnam would be great too but again I'm not sure how my resume would be viewed. I'm assuming South Korea and Japan would not be possible at this stage for me (though if they are, I'd certainly be open to going there too).
For a 'proper' IS?? I'd say rule out HK, SG and Japan. Also, I'd say the chances of finding a COBIS school looking an NQT and actually hiring you would be quite slim.
Where did you read that? I don't claim to know the answer but I would have thought doing your NQT year was really important.
>>>>>>Of the countries I listed (Vietnam, China, Hong Kong, Singapore, Thailand) what sounds the most likely? The ESF scheme in Hong Kong looks great but I don't know if they would take an NQT. Vietnam would be great too but again I'm not sure how my resume would be viewed. I'm assuming South Korea and Japan would not be possible at this stage for me (though if they are, I'd certainly be open to going there too).
For a 'proper' IS?? I'd say rule out HK, SG and Japan. Also, I'd say the chances of finding a COBIS school looking an NQT and actually hiring you would be quite slim.
Re: Starting international teaching after PGCE - options?
Does anyone here think Vietnam could be an option for me? Always wanted to travel there.
I've been informed on a different board China could be a good option too.
I've been informed on a different board China could be a good option too.
Response
You can do induction at a BSO (British School Overseas) but they must be a BS that was recently inspected with a satisfactory rating. Of those BSs that undergo that process most of them are upper tier ISs, the third tier BSs are little more than British ISs in name and maybe offering an IGCSE.
There are a lot of ITs that never completed induction, many are from the independent DS sector and never wanted to work in a maintained DS, but you are correct that higher tier BSs will not consider you competitive without full QTS and completed induction.
It is also true that induction and full QTS is much less significant as you build a successful resume, outside of a BS (which includes ASs and IB ISs)s whether you completed induction or not is of little relevance. Your NQT QTS means your license and there are only 2 maintained ISs outside of the UK (and they are UN school divisions). I would strongly advise you consider non BSs.
Your problem will be that the common bar to entry in IE is 2 years post licensing experience. IE and an IS is not the place for an IT to make their bones, very few ISs are resourced to provide you the time and mentoring to be successful, these ISs are fee generating ISs, and parents are not paying for their child to be the lab rat of an inexperienced IT. You will very likely not be accepted by the premium agencies (though you could join SA as an intern), and that would not be a bad idea, but the opportunities are very limited and highly competitive.
IB is very valuable and its a large concentration of IB ISs in the second tier that bridge IT careers from the third to first tier, you can do it without IB but IB makes it a lot easier.
China and Vietnam will be your best opportunities of those you have listed (I would add Cambodia, and Myanmar) and to a lessor extent Malaysia and Taiwan. Japan, Singapore, and Honk Kong are "little tigers" and are very competitive. Thailand is a mixed bag BKK is very popular and highly competitive (though not as much as Japan) but the rural Providences are much less competitive, though in most cases your looking at a local independent DS or an EAP/EPS ES.
There are many ISs in China that get very desperate and will hire anyone with a credential and a pulse.
ESF is typically the gateway chain IS in HK and they know it, you will have a lot of competition with a resume that is a lot of white space. The NET scheme may be a way for you into HK but its ESOL. Getting into HK is the hard part of becoming an IT there.
Some of the worst ISs in the world are in Vietnam, and there are really only a few upper tier ISs.
CSA or the ME would be your best option of getting IB experience the fastest. CSA generally has low salaries and the ME would allow you to save some serious coin, even with your resume, just dont consider anything that isnt an IB IS.
I would suggest you consider your focus for your PGCE, while you have a degree in history you have NO academic preparation in primary, and primary is very saturated, you have nothing to offer an IS as a primary IT. You would be slightly more marketable as a history social studies IT and it would be easier for you to demonstrate success as an upper secondary IT with exam scores, than it will as a primary IT where you have nothing to offer, and little means of building value. It will likely be a while before you are able to find an IB IS that will give you PYP experience than it will finding a lower tier IS to give you a school leaving level course.
There are a lot of ITs that never completed induction, many are from the independent DS sector and never wanted to work in a maintained DS, but you are correct that higher tier BSs will not consider you competitive without full QTS and completed induction.
It is also true that induction and full QTS is much less significant as you build a successful resume, outside of a BS (which includes ASs and IB ISs)s whether you completed induction or not is of little relevance. Your NQT QTS means your license and there are only 2 maintained ISs outside of the UK (and they are UN school divisions). I would strongly advise you consider non BSs.
Your problem will be that the common bar to entry in IE is 2 years post licensing experience. IE and an IS is not the place for an IT to make their bones, very few ISs are resourced to provide you the time and mentoring to be successful, these ISs are fee generating ISs, and parents are not paying for their child to be the lab rat of an inexperienced IT. You will very likely not be accepted by the premium agencies (though you could join SA as an intern), and that would not be a bad idea, but the opportunities are very limited and highly competitive.
IB is very valuable and its a large concentration of IB ISs in the second tier that bridge IT careers from the third to first tier, you can do it without IB but IB makes it a lot easier.
China and Vietnam will be your best opportunities of those you have listed (I would add Cambodia, and Myanmar) and to a lessor extent Malaysia and Taiwan. Japan, Singapore, and Honk Kong are "little tigers" and are very competitive. Thailand is a mixed bag BKK is very popular and highly competitive (though not as much as Japan) but the rural Providences are much less competitive, though in most cases your looking at a local independent DS or an EAP/EPS ES.
There are many ISs in China that get very desperate and will hire anyone with a credential and a pulse.
ESF is typically the gateway chain IS in HK and they know it, you will have a lot of competition with a resume that is a lot of white space. The NET scheme may be a way for you into HK but its ESOL. Getting into HK is the hard part of becoming an IT there.
Some of the worst ISs in the world are in Vietnam, and there are really only a few upper tier ISs.
CSA or the ME would be your best option of getting IB experience the fastest. CSA generally has low salaries and the ME would allow you to save some serious coin, even with your resume, just dont consider anything that isnt an IB IS.
I would suggest you consider your focus for your PGCE, while you have a degree in history you have NO academic preparation in primary, and primary is very saturated, you have nothing to offer an IS as a primary IT. You would be slightly more marketable as a history social studies IT and it would be easier for you to demonstrate success as an upper secondary IT with exam scores, than it will as a primary IT where you have nothing to offer, and little means of building value. It will likely be a while before you are able to find an IB IS that will give you PYP experience than it will finding a lower tier IS to give you a school leaving level course.
Re: Starting international teaching after PGCE - options?
So, to conclude - my best chance of 'climbing the ladder' would be to get IB experience in the ME (given banking some money is also a priority), then after a couple of years there look at trying to transfer to a 'better' country. I concur that IB experience is going to be a must going forward.
My PGCE starts in a month, so no chance of changing it now. It's going to be Primary. Unfortunately I wasn't blessed with great physics/chemistry/maths abilities, so I'll just have to make do. I'd also prefer to teach Primary than Secondary anyway.
My PGCE starts in a month, so no chance of changing it now. It's going to be Primary. Unfortunately I wasn't blessed with great physics/chemistry/maths abilities, so I'll just have to make do. I'd also prefer to teach Primary than Secondary anyway.
Reply
@joe30
You need experience in a primary classroom in any curriculum and any grade and anywhere. You will likely be very frustrated if you focus only on PYP. Apply for anything and everything regardless of where it is.
You need experience in a primary classroom in any curriculum and any grade and anywhere. You will likely be very frustrated if you focus only on PYP. Apply for anything and everything regardless of where it is.
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Yantantether
- Posts: 168
- Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:41 am
Re: Starting international teaching after PGCE - options?
Joe,
If IB PYP is really what you want then read up on it, do an online course and go for it. A school will see your commitment I'm sure.
If IB PYP is really what you want then read up on it, do an online course and go for it. A school will see your commitment I'm sure.
Reply
@joe30
I disagree with @Yantantether, an online IB/PYP workshop is going to cost you at least £600, you wont learn anything you cant read online, and it will have negligible utility to your marketability. IB ISs need ITs who can show they can can teach and have taught, absent that a workshop certificate isnt worth anything.
The rule is no amount of training equals any amount of experience.
I disagree with @Yantantether, an online IB/PYP workshop is going to cost you at least £600, you wont learn anything you cant read online, and it will have negligible utility to your marketability. IB ISs need ITs who can show they can can teach and have taught, absent that a workshop certificate isnt worth anything.
The rule is no amount of training equals any amount of experience.
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Yantantether
- Posts: 168
- Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:41 am
Re: Starting international teaching after PGCE - options?
Of course you disagree, it's what you do.
Anyway, back to the topic: I did exactly as I suggested and landed my first IB gig on the strength of my commitment to the program. This commitment was backed up by the online course I spent time and money on (which additionally helped with the jargon and questioning during the interview). I'm not saying the OP has to do that also, though it obviously helped me. Was it a waste of money? Not as far as I'm concerned but individuals will have to make their own minds up on that.
Cheers
Anyway, back to the topic: I did exactly as I suggested and landed my first IB gig on the strength of my commitment to the program. This commitment was backed up by the online course I spent time and money on (which additionally helped with the jargon and questioning during the interview). I'm not saying the OP has to do that also, though it obviously helped me. Was it a waste of money? Not as far as I'm concerned but individuals will have to make their own minds up on that.
Cheers
Discussion
@Yanther doesnt know that their IB certificate had any value, they could just as easily have been hired without it. As previously posted you can learn all the terminology online.
Re: Starting international teaching after PGCE - options?
So will it be possible to get an IB position when newly qualified? Or will I need to work my way up to it, likely through a DS school abroad? The UK NC is going to be difficult as I don't have the NQT year.
Reply
@joe30
Lets differentiate between possible and probable. Just about any scenario you can conceive is possible. There are some unbelievable things that happen in IE, that are extreme outliers that happen that most ITs only imagine about. So yes its possible you get your NQT, and an IB IS picks you up for their PYP program.
Its not very probable though, its so improbable that impossible and improbable are twins walking down the street holding hands in identical outfits. IB ISs tend to fill the of the third tier and the second tier, their a career bridge between 3rd and 1st tier for most ITs. You dont have the requisite 2 years post certification experience, so your application will likely be screened out and the premium agencies wont accept you. So You enroll in SA as an intern candidate and you go to the fair as an intern. Now you are at the fair and even though youre a primary IT in a saturated field (lots of Primary ITs) your at the fair now with your mostly blank resume, but you feel you have mad social and personality skills and youll just dazzle them with charm and charisma. Now how do you navigate the lines, with the pre-screeners asking if you have 2, 3, or 5 years of IB experience and if you cant answer yes you dont even get up to the table and the recruiter and make your pitch for an interview slot. Assuming you get passed that line somehow, and you manage to get a couple of interview slots. You are now sitting in the hotel room with the recruiter. The first question is "tell me how you got into education". Whats your answer going to be? You did X something then got your NQT, and thats it. Its a one minute answer. Then the other questions come: What is your experience in Differentiation in the classroom, none you have no experience in the classroom. What is your plan for behavior management, none you have no experience in a classroom. What is your experience working with parents, none you have no experience in the classroom. You see the problem yet? Why would a recruiter hire you when the candidate before you and the candidate after you have answers to those questions? You can train someone in PYP, and you can give them time to hone the craft, but ISs are not the places to make an IT, you need good source material, a body, a foundation first.
The possible in that scenario assumes there was a candidate before you and a candidate after you, and there are ISs that are low enough tier that there might not be anyone before or after you, and you might be the best they can get, its you or a couple of uncredentialed ETs, and they are are only a candidate IB/PYP program in a hardship location.
Lets differentiate between possible and probable. Just about any scenario you can conceive is possible. There are some unbelievable things that happen in IE, that are extreme outliers that happen that most ITs only imagine about. So yes its possible you get your NQT, and an IB IS picks you up for their PYP program.
Its not very probable though, its so improbable that impossible and improbable are twins walking down the street holding hands in identical outfits. IB ISs tend to fill the of the third tier and the second tier, their a career bridge between 3rd and 1st tier for most ITs. You dont have the requisite 2 years post certification experience, so your application will likely be screened out and the premium agencies wont accept you. So You enroll in SA as an intern candidate and you go to the fair as an intern. Now you are at the fair and even though youre a primary IT in a saturated field (lots of Primary ITs) your at the fair now with your mostly blank resume, but you feel you have mad social and personality skills and youll just dazzle them with charm and charisma. Now how do you navigate the lines, with the pre-screeners asking if you have 2, 3, or 5 years of IB experience and if you cant answer yes you dont even get up to the table and the recruiter and make your pitch for an interview slot. Assuming you get passed that line somehow, and you manage to get a couple of interview slots. You are now sitting in the hotel room with the recruiter. The first question is "tell me how you got into education". Whats your answer going to be? You did X something then got your NQT, and thats it. Its a one minute answer. Then the other questions come: What is your experience in Differentiation in the classroom, none you have no experience in the classroom. What is your plan for behavior management, none you have no experience in a classroom. What is your experience working with parents, none you have no experience in the classroom. You see the problem yet? Why would a recruiter hire you when the candidate before you and the candidate after you have answers to those questions? You can train someone in PYP, and you can give them time to hone the craft, but ISs are not the places to make an IT, you need good source material, a body, a foundation first.
The possible in that scenario assumes there was a candidate before you and a candidate after you, and there are ISs that are low enough tier that there might not be anyone before or after you, and you might be the best they can get, its you or a couple of uncredentialed ETs, and they are are only a candidate IB/PYP program in a hardship location.
Re: Starting international teaching after PGCE - options?
@PsyGuy
Yes, I'm aware the chance of IB training AND a good location are practically nil. I was meaning the IB schools in 'difficult' locations when I was querying what was possible.
Think it'd be best off doing a 'bad' location for 2 years to get the IB experience, then move onto a better location. Rather than spend 2 years in a better location but not having the IB - although I will of course apply to anything that looks reasonable.
Yes, I'm aware the chance of IB training AND a good location are practically nil. I was meaning the IB schools in 'difficult' locations when I was querying what was possible.
Think it'd be best off doing a 'bad' location for 2 years to get the IB experience, then move onto a better location. Rather than spend 2 years in a better location but not having the IB - although I will of course apply to anything that looks reasonable.