QTS Certification

Dredge
Posts: 123
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:25 pm
Location: Three continents, mentally and physically

QTS Certification

Post by Dredge »

In reference to a previous post and psyguy's advice, I decided to apply for QTS certification just to see what would happen and today I received approval and have the certificate. I was surprised to see that it is not age or subject specific. Many schools ask for certification in the subject and grade level, so I don't know how useful this would be or what you are supposed to say when they ask you if you are certified in your subject/grade level. Do most British schools just look for the QTS cert. and then look at course study and work experience? Just curious.
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Response

Post by PsyGuy »

Understand that QTS (and a PGCE) is focused on the meds/peds of professional education and teaching. Its not concerned with subject matter competency. This is usually determined by academic studies, what an IT/DT has a degree in, majored in and to a lessor extent minored in.

Its very likely you do have subject level categories assigned to your QTS, you need to access the Teacher Services Portal of the NCTL at:

https://teacherservices.education.gov.u ... vice/Login

Your teacher reference number is on your certificate, Surname is your last name and remember to include the dashes in your date of birth, you can leave the insurance number empty. Once you are logged in to the database, click on or scroll down to "initial teacher training" and you will find two subject areas that likely have assignment classifications and an age range (likely a very broad age range). This data is what would be used in a maintained DS for assignment eligibility (and likely matches your previous US certification areas), of course an independent IS can use whatever criteria they want for assignment eligibility.

If asked you say yes your certified in your subject and grade level, if you have all age ranges in QTS you can say your age ranges are K-12 and your subject areas if they arent listed are congruent to the degree/major you studied.

QTS is a professional educator credential for instructional services in primary and secondary education, its equivalent to any US State stage 3 credential.
Rhysboy

Re: QTS Certification

Post by Rhysboy »

A PGCE is always taken in a subject. For example, I did a PGCE chemistry with balanced science. You always focus on a particular subject area.
Theoretically once you have QTS, you can teach any subject and age range. Though my PGCE is science, I could teach in a primary school, although it is highly unlikely that I would get a job.
Dredge
Posts: 123
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:25 pm
Location: Three continents, mentally and physically

Re: QTS Certification

Post by Dredge »

Yes, that's what I figured. It's different from US certificates that are age and subject specific. The QTS letter states that I have no age or subject restrictions.
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Disscussion

Post by PsyGuy »

@Rhysboy

Thats not true in practice. Your expected to know your subject field when entering the PGCE program, your learning to be a teacher during the course not a one year course in the subject.

@Dredge

Thats not true, there are US credentials that are not age or subject specific, you will find K-12 subject certifications that arent restricted to age. A CA single subject credential in any field authorizes the IT/DT to teach that subject at any age/grade level (K-12), and an IT/DT with a multiple subject teaching credential could teach any subject at any age/grade level (K-12) as long as it is in a self contained classroom.
Rhysboy

Re: QTS Certification

Post by Rhysboy »

Psyguy, have you actually done a PGCE? I have in a UK university. You take a PGCE in a subject area. You do not do a general PGCE. Yes, you need to have a degree in the subject area before you are accepted onto the course, but the PGCE will focus on a subject area. During my chemistry and science PGCE, we learned how to teach science in addition to general education classes.
Helen Back
Posts: 242
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:16 pm

Re: QTS Certification

Post by Helen Back »

I have a one year B.Ed. and a teaching certificate from a country other than the UK. I applied and received QTS in the UK simply by sending off a couple of transcript, This is what the return confirmation letter said;

"QTS is non-subject specific and non-age range specific. You are therefore, eligible, to seek posts covering the full range of National Curriculum subjects, to any age-range".
Smurf
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:31 am

Re: QTS Certification

Post by Smurf »

Helen Back wrote:
> I have a one year B.Ed. and a teaching certificate from a country other
> than the UK. I applied and received QTS in the UK simply by sending off a
> couple of transcript, This is what the return confirmation letter said;
>
> "QTS is non-subject specific and non-age range specific. You are
> therefore, eligible, to seek posts covering the full range of National
> Curriculum subjects, to any age-range".

Yes, the PGCE and QTS are different things, although they are linked.

QTS only says that you are licensed to teach in a UK state school. The PGCE qualification will specify which subject area you are trained to teach in.

It is possible to have one without the other. For example, overseas trained teachers can obtain QTS without a PGCE whereas those who complete online generic PGCEs (Sunderland, Nottingham etc) will not have QTS. Also, UK teachers who have their license revoked will lose QTS but will still have their PGCE qualification (they are a trained teacher without a licence to teach).

There is an old post from a different forum that explains the difference.... https://community.tes.com/threads/pgce-qts-nqt.204300/
Rhysboy

Re: QTS Certification

Post by Rhysboy »

Helen Back wrote:
> I have a one year B.Ed. and a teaching certificate from a country other
> than the UK. I applied and received QTS in the UK simply by sending off a
> couple of transcript, This is what the return confirmation letter said;
>
> "QTS is non-subject specific and non-age range specific. You are
> therefore, eligible, to seek posts covering the full range of National
> Curriculum subjects, to any age-range".

Yes, you are theoretically eligible to teach any age range or subject area, but in reality you would not get a HS chemistry job if your degree and experience were in early childhood education, for example.
Helen Back
Posts: 242
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:16 pm

Re: QTS Certification

Post by Helen Back »

Rhysboy wrote:
> Yes, you are theoretically eligible to teach any age range or subject area, but in
> reality you would not get a HS chemistry job if your degree and experience were
> in early childhood education, for example.

Of course, agreed. This would be the same in the country I got my initial teaching certification.
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@Rhysboy

Yes I have, and also in a UK university. Have you compared the instructional content across PGCE programs?

There was nothing about your chemistry/science PGCE that had anything to do with general chemistry, organic chemistry, inorganic chemistry, ana1ytical chemistry, physical chemistry or bio chemistry. Chemistry was the vehicle for which you studied "teaching" the meds/peds of being a professional educator. Comparing a science PGCE or a literature PGCE or a Humanities PGCE the instructional content is highly congruent across subjects. Nothing you learn in a PGCE is going to give you any significant competence in the teaching subject field.

@Helen Back

Yes, thats what everyones letter from the NCTL says but their is a significant and important difference between the lack of age and subject specificity and assignment eligibility. A maintained DS would be able to hire you, but they would have major standards issues and inspection problems if they assigned a DT to a classroom outside of their assignment eligibility course fields.
Being able to "seek any posts" doesnt mean there isnt very strong guidance and regulations to what a maintained DS could assign you to teach.

@Smurf

QTS is not a license it is a credential, it validates that the holder completed the prescribed course of study and/or a successful induction period.
While QTS can be revoked (this is extremely rare, the standard for revocation requires that QTS was issued in error or that some element necessary for issuance of QTS was invalid. Disbarring and prohibitions rarely result in the revocation of QTS). A DT can possess QTS and not be licensed to provide instructional services (teach). This is what happens when an NQT is unsuccessful in their induction year. They retain their PGCE and their QTS but they are barred from providing instructional services in a maintained DS.

This isnt entirely true, there are other routes to QTS other than QTS that also identify which subjects and age ranges a DT is eligible for assignment. A DT that completes a school direct will have subject and age identifiers in their QTS database profile, absent the PGCE.

A Generic (general studies) PGCE has the same QTS as as any other PGCE, Nottingham etc have F2F programs that provide QTS as well as "international" or distance programs. They arent "generic".

The TES post is inaccurate and outdated (there is no time limit for beginning induction, etc.)
wrldtrvlr123
Posts: 1173
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
Location: Japan

Re: QTS Certification

Post by wrldtrvlr123 »

PsyGuy wrote:
> @Rhysboy
>
> Yes I have, and also in a UK university. Have you compared the instructional content
> across PGCE programs?
>
> There was nothing about your chemistry/science PGCE that had anything to do with
> general chemistry, organic chemistry, inorganic chemistry, ana1ytical chemistry,
> physical chemistry or bio chemistry. Chemistry was the vehicle for which you studied
> "teaching" the meds/peds of being a professional educator. Comparing a science
> PGCE or a literature PGCE or a Humanities PGCE the instructional content is highly
> congruent across subjects. Nothing you learn in a PGCE is going to give you any
> significant competence in the teaching subject field.
>
> @Helen Back
>
> Yes, thats what everyones letter from the NCTL says but their is a significant and
> important difference between the lack of age and subject specificity and assignment
> eligibility. A maintained DS would be able to hire you, but they would have major
> standards issues and inspection problems if they assigned a DT to a classroom outside
> of their assignment eligibility course fields.
> Being able to "seek any posts" doesnt mean there isnt very strong guidance and regulations
> to what a maintained DS could assign you to teach.
>
> @Smurf
>
> QTS is not a license it is a credential, it validates that the holder completed the
> prescribed course of study and/or a successful induction period.
> While QTS can be revoked (this is extremely rare, the standard for revocation requires
> that QTS was issued in error or that some element necessary for issuance of QTS
> was invalid. Disbarring and prohibitions rarely result in the revocation of QTS).
> A DT can possess QTS and not be licensed to provide instructional services (teach).
> This is what happens when an NQT is unsuccessful in their induction year. They retain
> their PGCE and their QTS but they are barred from providing instructional services
> in a maintained DS.
>
> This isnt entirely true, there are other routes to QTS other than QTS that also identify
> which subjects and age ranges a DT is eligible for assignment. A DT that completes
> a school direct will have subject and age identifiers in their QTS database profile,
> absent the PGCE.
>
> A Generic (general studies) PGCE has the same QTS as as any other PGCE, Nottingham
> etc have F2F programs that provide QTS as well as "international" or distance programs.
> They arent "generic".
>
> The TES post is inaccurate and outdated (there is no time limit for beginning induction,
> etc.)
----------------
While I don't claim to have trained and/or worked in the UK (and haven't been bothered to get my QTS), I do read a lot about UK schools and education. From that, it doesn't seem that being "struck off" is all that rare and it generally involves misbehavior of some kind on the teacher's part, not some problem with the issuance of the QTS.

Or is being struck off different than having one's QTS revoked?
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@WT123

QTS and being "struck off" have little to do with each other. Being "struck off" means to be removed from the eligible teacher registry which is the equivalent of licensure to practice in Wales, it commonly meant to include any DT/IT that is not permitted to work with children in any type of education setting.

Misconduct is handled by 2 non judicial agencies (the Crown can always issue a non-contact order that prohibits coming within a certain distance where children are). The DBS (Disclosure and Barring Service) prohibits a DT or other individual from having contact (working, volunteering, etc) with certain subsets of people (children in the case of a DT) to include environments that are not educational related. Someone can be barred from being a nanny, babysitter, or teacher through DBS, often as the result of judicial/criminal action.

The other agency is the NCTL which is responsible for maintaining QTS, etc. When the NCTL wants to ban a DT for serious misconduct they issue a prohibition order. This effectively bars them from working or serving in any educational setting. The QTS database is updated to reflect a prohibition. An individual can have a prohibition order and still work with Children, just not in an educational setting, assuming the conduct that led to the prohibition order, didnt additionally result in barring.
A prohibition order is not strictly a punitive measure its a safety action to protect the safety and welfare of children. In general, prohibition is a lifetime ban but the prohibition order can allow for a review after and at certain periods of lapsed time. So a DT could have prohibition order banning them from teaching for life but with a 3 year option for review, meaning the DT can apply for review and having their prohibition set aside and allowed to return to teaching.

This process however does not effect the validity of the DTs QTS, and the QTS is not usually revoked. Its very rare to have QTS revoked for cause. The standards are basically an error, or some element for the issuance of QTS is invalid. The only member of the Dfe that can revoke QTS for cause is the Secretary of Education, with the Queens Bench division hearing appeals.
Smurf
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:31 am

Re: Reply

Post by Smurf »

PsyGuy wrote:

> @Smurf
>
> QTS is not a license it is a credential, it validates that the holder
> completed the prescribed course of study and/or a successful induction
> period.
> While QTS can be revoked (this is extremely rare, the standard for
> revocation requires that QTS was issued in error or that some element
> necessary for issuance of QTS was invalid. Disbarring and prohibitions
> rarely result in the revocation of QTS). A DT can possess QTS and not be
> licensed to provide instructional services (teach). This is what happens
> when an NQT is unsuccessful in their induction year. They retain their PGCE
> and their QTS but they are barred from providing instructional services in
> a maintained DS.
>
> This isnt entirely true, there are other routes to QTS other than QTS that
> also identify which subjects and age ranges a DT is eligible for
> assignment. A DT that completes a school direct will have subject and age
> identifiers in their QTS database profile, absent the PGCE.
>
> A Generic (general studies) PGCE has the same QTS as as any other PGCE,
> Nottingham etc have F2F programs that provide QTS as well as
> "international" or distance programs. They arent
> "generic".
>
> The TES post is inaccurate and outdated (there is no time limit for
> beginning induction, etc.)

Whatever you want to call it, it serves as the equivalent to a license in UK government schools - whatever training route you have taken, you can't work as a teacher in a UK government school without QTS. You can have completed any prescribed course of study (such as a PGCE, SCITT, School Direct) and then subsequently lose your QTS for misbehaviour without changing the fact that you have a PGCE (admittedly this is extremely rare but I'm just saying this to give a simple example of how the two parts differ).

You are correct that without successfully completing the NQT year you lose QTS but this was never argued. You are also forest that Nottingham and Sunderland Universities will have F2F programmes that award a PGCE with QTS. However, as I have already said, the international PGCE that is not specific to any subject does not give anyone QTS.
Smurf
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:31 am

Re: QTS Certification

Post by Smurf »

wrldtrvlr123 wrote:
> PsyGuy wrote:
> > @Rhysboy
> >
> > Yes I have, and also in a UK university. Have you compared the instructional
> content
> > across PGCE programs?
> >
> > There was nothing about your chemistry/science PGCE that had anything to do with
> > general chemistry, organic chemistry, inorganic chemistry, ana1ytical
> chemistry,
> > physical chemistry or bio chemistry. Chemistry was the vehicle for which you
> studied
> > "teaching" the meds/peds of being a professional educator. Comparing
> a science
> > PGCE or a literature PGCE or a Humanities PGCE the instructional content is
> highly
> > congruent across subjects. Nothing you learn in a PGCE is going to give you any
> > significant competence in the teaching subject field.
> >
> > @Helen Back
> >
> > Yes, thats what everyones letter from the NCTL says but their is a significant
> and
> > important difference between the lack of age and subject specificity and
> assignment
> > eligibility. A maintained DS would be able to hire you, but they would have
> major
> > standards issues and inspection problems if they assigned a DT to a classroom
> outside
> > of their assignment eligibility course fields.
> > Being able to "seek any posts" doesnt mean there isnt very strong
> guidance and regulations
> > to what a maintained DS could assign you to teach.
> >
> > @Smurf
> >
> > QTS is not a license it is a credential, it validates that the holder completed
> the
> > prescribed course of study and/or a successful induction period.
> > While QTS can be revoked (this is extremely rare, the standard for revocation
> requires
> > that QTS was issued in error or that some element necessary for issuance of QTS
> > was invalid. Disbarring and prohibitions rarely result in the revocation of
> QTS).
> > A DT can possess QTS and not be licensed to provide instructional services
> (teach).
> > This is what happens when an NQT is unsuccessful in their induction year. They
> retain
> > their PGCE and their QTS but they are barred from providing instructional
> services
> > in a maintained DS.
> >
> > This isnt entirely true, there are other routes to QTS other than QTS that also
> identify
> > which subjects and age ranges a DT is eligible for assignment. A DT that
> completes
> > a school direct will have subject and age identifiers in their QTS database
> profile,
> > absent the PGCE.
> >
> > A Generic (general studies) PGCE has the same QTS as as any other PGCE,
> Nottingham
> > etc have F2F programs that provide QTS as well as "international" or
> distance programs.
> > They arent "generic".
> >
> > The TES post is inaccurate and outdated (there is no time limit for beginning
> induction,
> > etc.)
> ----------------
> While I don't claim to have trained and/or worked in the UK (and haven't been
> bothered to get my QTS), I do read a lot about UK schools and education. From that,
> it doesn't seem that being "struck off" is all that rare and it generally
> involves misbehavior of some kind on the teacher's part, not some problem with the
> issuance of the QTS.
>
> Or is being struck off different than having one's QTS revoked?

Being struck off is exactly what you have suggested. It is rare and you'd have to be extremely unlucky or make a serious error of judgement to find yourself in that position.

I guess that Psyguy has searched Google for his answer, a problem with issuing QTS would have been some thing along the lines of you had deliberately lied about your identity, entry qualifications or past criminal record etc. that prevent you from being eligible to teach. This would be very unusual not to have been picked up prior to being accepted onto a course, let alone qualifying.
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