AP vs. IB

Lebenstraum
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Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:39 pm

AP vs. IB

Post by Lebenstraum »

My husband and I have been AP teachers for many years, but are interested in the IB DP program as that seems much more common overseas. For those of you that have taught both, can you speak to the difference in day to day teaching and workload for each program. We understand the philosophical differences in approach to education and the general content differences, but I'm curious about the logistics of teaching. Do you prefer one curriculum over another? Thanks!
PsyGuy
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Location: Northern Europe

Response

Post by PsyGuy »

You need to understand first that AP is an option. In USNC ISs the IS awards a diploma from the IS, regardless of whether the IS offers AP courses. There really isnt much that an IS has to do to offer AP. Its a program thats solely based on external assessment. The only requirment is that to offer AP classes an IS must have an approved syllabus. This requirement is to legally claim that an IS offers AP, but many students regardless of their program would be well prepared to take AP exams on their own. What typically happens is that the IS is an AP administration site.
DIP is a requirement to get a Baccalaureate (Diploma) from an IB IS.

The differences in daily performance are nil. An IB DIP lesson in Biology doesnt look much different than an AP lesson in Biology. Preparation has a little more work, in ensuring that your using the IB learner profile in the lesson plan. Production has the most difference, as there are more time frames and constraints for various amounts of documentation. If your working with IB students on their Essay as part of your course subject that will involve more time and resources. The other issue is that IB DIP is a two year program in a subject whereas AP is a year.

I prefer IB, they have really good Koolaid. IB is more marketable, as its more integrated into the IS and its ethos. AP is just a testing program, and it doesnt contribute to the IS ethos or environment.
Lebenstraum
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Re: AP vs. IB

Post by Lebenstraum »

Thanks! I appreciate your response, PsyGuy.
justlooking
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Re: AP vs. IB

Post by justlooking »

I've taught both for several years (not at the same time).

Although it's true that IB planning and paperwork is more time consuming, there are more significant differences too. In the tests I'm familiar with, the IB exam papers (and therefore the course) require much more depth of understanding, critical thinking, and the ability to synthesize information. The AP test requires more content knowledge and in some instances this means more memorization of facts, terms, etc.

Because the IB program requires many more assessments per course, students are also tested on a greater variety of applications for their knowledge. For example, the AP literature exam is composed of a bunch of multiple choices questions about readings and terminology and 3 pretty straightforward literary essays. The IB Literature requires an oral presentation, an oral exam (close reading skills and response), a 1500 word essay produced in school and in untimed conditions, an exam essay on an unseen text, and an exam essay responding to a question that pertains to at least 2 texts read during the course.

And because the IB diploma requires the core (Theory of Knowledge, Extended Essay, and Action/Service), it's a more comprehensive program although the College Board is attempting something similar with the Capstone Project.

Hope that helps.
reisgio
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Re: AP vs. IB

Post by reisgio »

If anyone wants to better understand why university campuses are filled with so many drones and uppity self-satisfied know-it-alls, you can look no further than the AP and IB curricula. Both are scams that produce students who think they are God's gift to humanity while having no self awareness. I always find it amazing that so many teachers just blindly teach these curricula without asking the hard questions regarding what the students who complete these programs/courses will look and act like and how will they add or subtract from our society.

While IB may be slightly more geared towards critical thinking and AP slightly more geared towards memorization, both, at their foundations, take a very globalist world-view that whether you agree with it or not, is a novel way to teach that has only been tried at this scale in the last twenty years. I find it to be an experiment worth cutting short, but because the quality of teachers is so remarkably low these days most teachers wouldn't know how to craft their own curriculum if locked in a padded cell with a book in their content area for a week! Many teachers have bought into working in a school that is program centered and not relationship centered because a relationship with most of these teachers would be pretty tough to develop since so many are quite vapid and most of the teachers have no interest in developing relationships with students as much as reading from the script. One day I hope the pendulum swings in the other direction.
Lastname_Z
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Re: AP vs. IB

Post by Lastname_Z »

@resigio:

I haven't taught either AP or IB yet (I'm just not at that level in my IT experience yet), but I don't see how building teacher-student relationships is the responsibility of curriculum. That's one of the main (and depending on the school you're at, one of the few) responsibilities of a teacher.
shadowjack
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Re: AP vs. IB

Post by shadowjack »

Reisgo,

any teacher that hasn't figured out that teaching is primarily about relationships and secondarily about content, then they aren't that good IMHO. I teach people first, subjects second.
Thames Pirate
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Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am

Re: AP vs. IB

Post by Thames Pirate »

reisgio wrote:
> If anyone wants to better understand why university campuses are filled
> with so many drones and uppity self-satisfied know-it-alls, you can look no
> further than the AP and IB curricula. Both are scams that produce students
> who think they are God's gift to humanity while having no self awareness. I
> always find it amazing that so many teachers just blindly teach these
> curricula without asking the hard questions regarding what the students who
> complete these programs/courses will look and act like and how will they
> add or subtract from our society.

I completely disagree. The IB fosters self awareness as much as any curriculum can; there is an emphasis on reflection, interdisciplinary integration, and holistic learning through CAS and, to some extent, the EE. The multiple modes of assessment, the types of questions asked, and the existence of TOK foster insight. Certainly content plays a huge role, but OPVLs, for example, are much better than a listing of what happened when it comes to history. Lit is about connecting the literary work's style and superficial meaning with its deeper meaning and its exploration of the human experience. In other words, the curriculum does better than most at fostering thinking and self awareness. Obviously at some point the individuals must do the work.


>
> While IB may be slightly more geared towards critical thinking and AP
> slightly more geared towards memorization, both, at their foundations, take
> a very globalist world-view that whether you agree with it or not, is a
> novel way to teach that has only been tried at this scale in the last
> twenty years. I find it to be an experiment worth cutting short, but
> because the quality of teachers is so remarkably low these days most
> teachers wouldn't know how to craft their own curriculum if locked in a
> padded cell with a book in their content area for a week! Many teachers
> have bought into working in a school that is program centered and not
> relationship centered because a relationship with most of these teachers
> would be pretty tough to develop since so many are quite vapid and most of
> the teachers have no interest in developing relationships with students as
> much as reading from the script. One day I hope the pendulum swings in the
> other direction.

Also not true. The AP curriculum is NOT globalist, and both are far older than 20 years. Furthermore, there are a LOT of great teachers out there, especially in these two programs. They can and MUST create their own curriculum as these are only frameworks for content. There is nothing in IB that says which history focus or which novels a school should choose and certainly nothing about how to best prepare them for the assessments. It is still the teachers who choose the novels, decide the desired outcomes, and plan ways to help students achieve those skills and insights. To say that they couldn't craft curriculum is ludicrous.

Relationships are, of course, critical to teaching. However, most teachers I know are not vapid, and saying so makes you sound arrogant at best. Are you one of the few non-vapid teachers out there?

Yes, good teaching is good teaching, regardless of curriculum. Yes, it is based in relationships among other things. But to knock most teachers and both curriculums in this way shows an arrogance as well as a misunderstanding of what AP/IB are and are not.
justlooking
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Re: AP vs. IB

Post by justlooking »

Nicely said, Thames Pirate. I was going to respond, but you've said it all.
PsyGuy
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Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@justlooking

I cant agree, the two are very different programs. IB is a curriculum framework that leads to a qualification, its far more a complete package of what a curriculum looks like, but AP doesnt exist in a bubble nor is it an inclusive curriculum product. AP is PART of the upper secondary/secondary experience. Just because the IBO has "packaged" various curriculum components such as TOK, EE, and CAS doesnt mean those experiences are absent for secondary programs that include AP as a component of the program. Nor is the depth of content and extent of assessment absent from secondary programs that offer AP as part of their program. If you compare the external assessment component of IB to AP the experience and components are equivalent.

@reisgio

I would adapt a slightly different statement, that absent some prescribed curriculum many ITs and DTs would not have the capability to design and create a curriculum that didnt involve following the text page by page using direct teach (lecturing) methods.

@Lastname_Z

Concept of the "hidden curriculum", ITs and DTs have more and more responsibilities that were filled by other community or home members.

@Thames Pirate

That is such a trite and disingenuous conclusion based on social desirability. What do you expect the IB/AP/IGCSE or any curriculum to claim that they foster isolationism or cultural centrism. "Fostering" is the equivalent of leading the horse to water and calling it a day.

Emphasis on IB Concepts and the IB Learner Profile though CAS or any other component of any curriculum comes down to compliance and deference to authority. Students participate in CAS or EE, or TOK because adults make them, and if they dont their are negative consequences. They were tasked to do a project with the implication they dont graduate if they refuse.
OPVL is just another iteration within Pop.Ed. its no different than the fundamental parts of research. Why is OPVL superior than a chronicle? Its the same rational that has been peddled in maths that conceptual understanding is superior than fact and task competency. Its not "better" that a student understand the relationships in algebra if they cant factor a polynomial and produce the correct answer. Why is OPVL better than knowing that X event happened at time Y and then X2 event happened at time Y2. They arent superior, you are expressing a preference for one system over another, I like Chunky Monkey more than Cherry Garcia, that doesnt make it better. Your choice is reinforced because your students perform better with it. All that indicates is that your students cant memorize a chronicle.

Thats not true, there are a vast number of resources that would require little or no curriculum design or creation. Yes, there is IB has a lot of prescription is what is required in the course guide and there is a prescribed list of authors. ITs choose the novel, from an approved list, and the desired outcomes are dictated by the course guidance. The students external exams are going to require performance demonstration against that prescribed guidance not what the IT desires. To claim the course is solely in the hands of the IT is delusional or narcissistic.

Relationships arent critical, I know countless students that have been very successful learning from youtube, no relationship required.

I love the IBO Koolaid, but there is a certain degree of cultishness associated with IB "believers".
Thames Pirate
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Re: Reply

Post by Thames Pirate »

PsyGuy wrote:

> That is such a trite and disingenuous conclusion based on social
> desirability. What do you expect the IB/AP/IGCSE or any curriculum to claim
> that they foster isolationism or cultural centrism. "Fostering"
> is the equivalent of leading the horse to water and calling it a day.


You misunderstand me as you are wont to do. Reisgio implied that the curriculums create followers. My response is that these curriculums, particularly the IB, do as much as or more than most in terms of critical thinking and self awareness. Of course the delivery matters, too--but yes, ultimately, you can only lead a horse to water. I cannot force students to become self-aware, and anyone who says they can is delusional. It's SELF awareness, after all! But the IB does fairly well creating a greater chance for success given that it is, at the end of the day, a school curriculum meant to be flexible enough for a wide range of institutions.

>
> Emphasis on IB Concepts and the IB Learner Profile though CAS or any other
> component of any curriculum comes down to compliance and deference to
> authority. Students participate in CAS or EE, or TOK because adults make
> them, and if they dont their are negative consequences. They were tasked to
> do a project with the implication they dont graduate if they refuse.

Yes, this is true--but it at least creates greater opportunity for self-discovery than if those things were not there. I am in no way claiming that IB is a magic wand--simply that it does all it can to foster independent learning and self-awareness. I am often impressed at how students who complain and slog their way through CAS are able to see its value and appreciate having done it even as they wrap up. That means that on some level in at least some way, it has been successful. Not for everyone, sure, but for many.

> OPVL is just another iteration within Pop.Ed. its no different than the
> fundamental parts of research. Why is OPVL superior than a chronicle? Its
> the same rational that has been peddled in maths that conceptual
> understanding is superior than fact and task competency. Its not
> "better" that a student understand the relationships in algebra
> if they cant factor a polynomial and produce the correct answer. Why is
> OPVL better than knowing that X event happened at time Y and then X2 event
> happened at time Y2. They arent superior, you are expressing a preference
> for one system over another, I like Chunky Monkey more than Cherry Garcia,
> that doesnt make it better. Your choice is reinforced because your students
> perform better with it. All that indicates is that your students cant
> memorize a chronicle.

Actually, I didn't express a preference. I simply said that an OPVL fosters more critical thinking than memorization of events. Can it be done in other ways? Sure. Are some of them better? As you say, it is a matter of preference. My point was the OPVL is designed to get kids to at least start to think about their historical learning in a critical way.


> Thats not true, there are a vast number of resources that would require
> little or no curriculum design or creation. Yes, there is IB has a lot of
> prescription is what is required in the course guide and there is a
> prescribed list of authors. ITs choose the novel, from an approved list,
> and the desired outcomes are dictated by the course guidance. The students
> external exams are going to require performance demonstration against that
> prescribed guidance not what the IT desires. To claim the course is solely
> in the hands of the IT is delusional or narcissistic.

So I choose the novel--then what? Are you seriously saying there is a "right answer" with a novel such as The Calcutta Chromosome? They are assessed on their "appreciation of the writer's choices"--where can I find the supplied teaching novels for Adichie that explain how to appreciate her literary choices? Where are the supplied lessons on the value of Ondaatje's work as a representative of its genre and period in conjunction with its cultural value? The course is in the hands of the teacher; the works simply have to come from a list. The assessment is in the hands of IB. I get a rubric and information on how and when students will be assessed. How I prepare them for that assessment is my own. So yes, the course IS in the hands of the IT (or department or school or whatever).

>
> Relationships arent critical, I know countless students that have been
> very successful learning from youtube, no relationship required.
>

Sure, there are people who will be successful regardless of the teacher or whose critical learning relationships are not through school, but at home, for example. There are also people who like to argue just to argue rather than trying to understand the point I was trying to make.

> I love the IBO Koolaid, but there is a certain degree of cultishness
> associated with IB "believers".

I love the IB program, but I do not believe it to be the only way. There are many ways to skin a cat, after all. But you enjoy expressing opinions for me that are not actually my own.

My point to Reisgio was simply that the IB does as much as any framework to foster critical thinking and self-awareness.
reisgio
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Re: AP vs. IB

Post by reisgio »

The difference is that I don't love the IB or AP program; I love smart, knowledgeable, and good teachers who get students to learn and think critically. That's pretty rare these days. Just is.
fine dude
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Re: AP vs. IB

Post by fine dude »

@reisgio
It's the cynics and jaded armchair theorists who do more harm to kids education than the above-average teachers. No data, no evidence, just log into this forum, and type nonsense to satisfy their pre-inflated egos. What a load of BS!
PsyGuy
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Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@Thames Pirate

That wasnt the interpretation I observed, your claims appeared to express the superiority of IB over other curriculum to accomplish a greater degree of self and global awareness.

Based on your summative statement then your position is that IB is comparable to any other curriculum framework to promote critical thinking and self awareness. If true and all other curriculum frameworks are poo, than IB is comparable poo?

Or by inference is your assumption that curriculum frameworks are not poo, an equivocation fallacy? You are defining the terms by which to determine the conclusion is a member of the group in the premise. Pink is a red color, thus pink is red.
Thames Pirate
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Re: AP vs. IB

Post by Thames Pirate »

Nope, I said it did as good a job as any. I said it was structured to foster that as much as it can be. I did not say it was better. I am sure there are places (or maybe individuals) that have curriculums that are better, but I have no familiarity with them. From what I have seen, IB does more than most. It's not infallible, but it does what it can. Obviously the rest is up to the teacher. Sorry that wasn't clear to you.

You do, however, like to argue with me just to argue, don't you?
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