I'm new to IE. 2 years of experience teaching in the US and a full teaching license. This recruiting season I was offered a spot at two good, but very different schools.
Offer 1: In Asia.
Pros: Good OHS package, good savings potential in a relatively developed country in a relatively large city. Two year contract. School seems to be organized.
Cons: Doesn't offer AP or IB curriculum.
Offer 2: In northern Europe.
Pros: IB curriculum
Cons: Very small rural city, small settling in allowance, no OHS, only 1 year probationary contract (can be extended if they want to). Less savings potential. School seems less organized.
Now, I started teaching later in life, and I'm single, and late 20's early 30's. I have some debt I'd like to pay off from student loans. My ultimate goal is to get to WE or Japan, but I'm ok with waiting and saving for a few years first. Which offer would you choose and why?
Offer vs. Offer, which would you take?
Re: Offer vs. Offer, which would you take?
You don't provide enough information for me to offer any suggestion or opinion.
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coffeeman65
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2016 1:29 pm
Re: Offer vs. Offer, which would you take?
senator wrote:
> You don't provide enough information for me to offer any suggestion or
> opinion.
To put it more simply - is getting initial IB experience worth putting up with all of the other cons I mentioned, given the goal of eventually working in WE/Japan. There's less pay, less savings potential, etc. but if it would really keep my options open and improve my CV considerably more than the other school I'd consider it.
> You don't provide enough information for me to offer any suggestion or
> opinion.
To put it more simply - is getting initial IB experience worth putting up with all of the other cons I mentioned, given the goal of eventually working in WE/Japan. There's less pay, less savings potential, etc. but if it would really keep my options open and improve my CV considerably more than the other school I'd consider it.
Re: Offer vs. Offer, which would you take?
Considering how a lack of IB experience has limited my options thus far, I would definitely choose to gain it.
Re: Offer vs. Offer, which would you take?
You could be dead next year. What good would that IB training do?
My advice is to ALWAYS go for the school/area that you would enjoy the most and the hell with trying to plan your future employment - since you could end up anywhere, anyway. You can get IB training anytime and a lot of schools will accept you then train you.
The only reason to accept a position at a less enjoyable school for IB training is if you are one of those "I MUST get into a Tier 1 school" psychos, in which case you would need actual IB training AND experience.
And for me, Asia is fantastic. (And I learned IB on the job - it's not very difficult to do).
My advice is to ALWAYS go for the school/area that you would enjoy the most and the hell with trying to plan your future employment - since you could end up anywhere, anyway. You can get IB training anytime and a lot of schools will accept you then train you.
The only reason to accept a position at a less enjoyable school for IB training is if you are one of those "I MUST get into a Tier 1 school" psychos, in which case you would need actual IB training AND experience.
And for me, Asia is fantastic. (And I learned IB on the job - it's not very difficult to do).
Inquiry
Need more Information:
1) If IS 1 isn using AP or IB, are they offering IGCSE or is it just a host nation curriculum?
2) How do you know IS 1 really is organized? Is IS 2 lessor amount of organization mean its disorganized? What are you basing this on?
3) How far is IS 2 from a major city?
4) How important are social opportunities to you?
5) Which is more important to you saving and financial gain or your destination goals?
Many ISs even upper tier ISs in WE dont offer good OSH packages.
The comments on organization levels may be differences in formality and casualness of the ISs ethos. What you classify as less organized may be a reflection of an IS that has a more casual environment vs. the organized IS may be more rigid and formal.
That 1 year probationary contract may be because you will be granted tenure after that year and have a permanent appointment thereafter, this is common in European ISs.
Being in Europe makes it easier to move around in Europe. The IB experience will allow you to move up the tiers more readily. Coin is coin, if that your priority, the best choice is self evident.
Disagree with @senator, no amount of training equals any amount of experience but that IB training is going to also include a year or more of IB experience, and that has utility, especially if its DIP or PYP.
1) If IS 1 isn using AP or IB, are they offering IGCSE or is it just a host nation curriculum?
2) How do you know IS 1 really is organized? Is IS 2 lessor amount of organization mean its disorganized? What are you basing this on?
3) How far is IS 2 from a major city?
4) How important are social opportunities to you?
5) Which is more important to you saving and financial gain or your destination goals?
Many ISs even upper tier ISs in WE dont offer good OSH packages.
The comments on organization levels may be differences in formality and casualness of the ISs ethos. What you classify as less organized may be a reflection of an IS that has a more casual environment vs. the organized IS may be more rigid and formal.
That 1 year probationary contract may be because you will be granted tenure after that year and have a permanent appointment thereafter, this is common in European ISs.
Being in Europe makes it easier to move around in Europe. The IB experience will allow you to move up the tiers more readily. Coin is coin, if that your priority, the best choice is self evident.
Disagree with @senator, no amount of training equals any amount of experience but that IB training is going to also include a year or more of IB experience, and that has utility, especially if its DIP or PYP.
Re: Offer vs. Offer, which would you take?
I would just like to chime in that I am so over the IB curriculum for many reasons, many of which have to do with preventing high school students from having balanced lives and then screwing them if their IB predictions are not spot on. When did all educators lose their minds and decide that one curriculum was superior to all of the rest? I don't like AP either, but two wrongs don't make a right. Go with the school and location you like the best. The end.
Reply
@marina
1) Bragging and marketing an ISs superiority lacks a certain amount of credibility when you dont have external assessment data to support the ISs claims of awesomeness.
2) Many host nation diplomas arent worth very much.
3) Unis dont care how great you say your honors or G&T program is, they arent going to give you units/credits if you dont have exam scores whether they be A*/IB/AP.
4) What alternatives are there? The IBO is the closest to a recognized program/curriculum created by educators as there is. Everything else is either niche (EB) or created/maintained by bureaucrats and politicians.
5) Sure students dont have the most balanced lives, but thats a symptom of higher education, and social status. Parents arent going to pay good coin so their children can have balance, they pay the coin so their children will be competitive.
I readily admit I enjoy the IBO koolaid, and its the worst system out there, accept for everything else.
1) Bragging and marketing an ISs superiority lacks a certain amount of credibility when you dont have external assessment data to support the ISs claims of awesomeness.
2) Many host nation diplomas arent worth very much.
3) Unis dont care how great you say your honors or G&T program is, they arent going to give you units/credits if you dont have exam scores whether they be A*/IB/AP.
4) What alternatives are there? The IBO is the closest to a recognized program/curriculum created by educators as there is. Everything else is either niche (EB) or created/maintained by bureaucrats and politicians.
5) Sure students dont have the most balanced lives, but thats a symptom of higher education, and social status. Parents arent going to pay good coin so their children can have balance, they pay the coin so their children will be competitive.
I readily admit I enjoy the IBO koolaid, and its the worst system out there, accept for everything else.
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coffeeman65
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2016 1:29 pm
Re: Inquiry
PsyGuy wrote:
> Need more Information:
>
> 1) If IS 1 isn using AP or IB, are they offering IGCSE or is it just a host
> nation curriculum?
> 2) How do you know IS 1 really is organized? Is IS 2 lessor amount of
> organization mean its disorganized? What are you basing this on?
> 3) How far is IS 2 from a major city?
> 4) How important are social opportunities to you?
> 5) Which is more important to you saving and financial gain or your
> destination goals?
>
> Many ISs even upper tier ISs in WE dont offer good OSH packages.
>
> The comments on organization levels may be differences in formality and
> casualness of the ISs ethos. What you classify as less organized may be a
> reflection of an IS that has a more casual environment vs. the organized IS
> may be more rigid and formal.
>
> That 1 year probationary contract may be because you will be granted tenure
> after that year and have a permanent appointment thereafter, this is common
> in European ISs.
>
> Being in Europe makes it easier to move around in Europe. The IB experience
> will allow you to move up the tiers more readily. Coin is coin, if that
> your priority, the best choice is self evident.
>
> Disagree with @senator, no amount of training equals any amount of
> experience but that IB training is going to also include a year or more of
> IB experience, and that has utility, especially if its DIP or PYP.
The only reason I thought they were more disorganized was the fact they were a new school and had trouble answering some of my questions, I get the feeling the only reason I got an offer is because it's quite late in the hiring season.
Offer 1's school has been around for a long time and is fairly established. Offer 1 does AP but I will be teaching middle school. Offer 2 is the same but the MYP.
Financial gain isn't most important - but still important at least until I can get debt free. The other issue is the preps. I'll be teaching 6 different preps at Offer 2, but only 4 for Offer 1.
I'm leaning towards Offer 1, but the allure of IB is strong.
> Need more Information:
>
> 1) If IS 1 isn using AP or IB, are they offering IGCSE or is it just a host
> nation curriculum?
> 2) How do you know IS 1 really is organized? Is IS 2 lessor amount of
> organization mean its disorganized? What are you basing this on?
> 3) How far is IS 2 from a major city?
> 4) How important are social opportunities to you?
> 5) Which is more important to you saving and financial gain or your
> destination goals?
>
> Many ISs even upper tier ISs in WE dont offer good OSH packages.
>
> The comments on organization levels may be differences in formality and
> casualness of the ISs ethos. What you classify as less organized may be a
> reflection of an IS that has a more casual environment vs. the organized IS
> may be more rigid and formal.
>
> That 1 year probationary contract may be because you will be granted tenure
> after that year and have a permanent appointment thereafter, this is common
> in European ISs.
>
> Being in Europe makes it easier to move around in Europe. The IB experience
> will allow you to move up the tiers more readily. Coin is coin, if that
> your priority, the best choice is self evident.
>
> Disagree with @senator, no amount of training equals any amount of
> experience but that IB training is going to also include a year or more of
> IB experience, and that has utility, especially if its DIP or PYP.
The only reason I thought they were more disorganized was the fact they were a new school and had trouble answering some of my questions, I get the feeling the only reason I got an offer is because it's quite late in the hiring season.
Offer 1's school has been around for a long time and is fairly established. Offer 1 does AP but I will be teaching middle school. Offer 2 is the same but the MYP.
Financial gain isn't most important - but still important at least until I can get debt free. The other issue is the preps. I'll be teaching 6 different preps at Offer 2, but only 4 for Offer 1.
I'm leaning towards Offer 1, but the allure of IB is strong.
Inquiry
1) How important is social life and opportunities?
2) How far is IS 2 from a major city (short enough you could get your big city fix each weekend)?
3) Is there a difference in tiers?
New ISs have a lot of stresses that are different than established ISs, however you have more flexibility and 'political currency'. There wont be any we did it this way before, and since everything is going to be new and in transition, your leadership team is going to be less demanding and tolerant to mistakes. New ISs are also a cause, its never ending expectations and work. A candidate IB program (or any IS thats doing an accreditation, inspection or authorization year) is a lot of work, never ending meetings, document production, etc.. IB experience during an authorization period is particularly valuable. If it all works with the reference and the experience you could move into leadership very quickly, your new IS would likely grow requiring a larger leadership team, and many new ISs forming IB programs would want someone with authorization experience as an AP/VP/DP or coordinator.
My position is on IS 2. Its a year, you can suffer/do almost anything for a year. It might be remote, but its Europe its not a hardship post. Depending how far the "city" is it might not be a big deal how rural you are if you can get somewhere on the weekend easily. Its IB and while your in MYP now, that could easily change especially with a new IS giving you the opportunity to move into DIP, it would be harder moving into AP from lower secondary at a well established IS. MYP is more valuable than lower secondary in a NC IS (which isnt valuable at all). The savings is a wash, most ITs dont save very much their first year regardless where they are and IS 2 is only a year long contract, the IB experience after that year could easily make up for the savings and financial differences in moving to a higher tier IS. The workload on preps is also a wash, once you hit 4 preps youre not going to know if you are coming or going or what time it is anyway, 6 preps isnt going to feel much worse. 6 preps at an IS with growing pains is going to feel like 4 preps at an established IS thats going to expect your 'A' game for each and every lesson. As long as those 6 preps look decent on paper the classroom performance doesnt have to be stellar.
If IS 1 is a tier 1 IS and a daily active social/night life is important to you than IS 1 may be the better option with more coin on the table. IB has utility, many 2nd tier ISs are IB ISs and they bridge the career track between 3rd and 1st tier for a lot of ITs, but of the 3 (really 4) IB programs MYP has the least value.
2) How far is IS 2 from a major city (short enough you could get your big city fix each weekend)?
3) Is there a difference in tiers?
New ISs have a lot of stresses that are different than established ISs, however you have more flexibility and 'political currency'. There wont be any we did it this way before, and since everything is going to be new and in transition, your leadership team is going to be less demanding and tolerant to mistakes. New ISs are also a cause, its never ending expectations and work. A candidate IB program (or any IS thats doing an accreditation, inspection or authorization year) is a lot of work, never ending meetings, document production, etc.. IB experience during an authorization period is particularly valuable. If it all works with the reference and the experience you could move into leadership very quickly, your new IS would likely grow requiring a larger leadership team, and many new ISs forming IB programs would want someone with authorization experience as an AP/VP/DP or coordinator.
My position is on IS 2. Its a year, you can suffer/do almost anything for a year. It might be remote, but its Europe its not a hardship post. Depending how far the "city" is it might not be a big deal how rural you are if you can get somewhere on the weekend easily. Its IB and while your in MYP now, that could easily change especially with a new IS giving you the opportunity to move into DIP, it would be harder moving into AP from lower secondary at a well established IS. MYP is more valuable than lower secondary in a NC IS (which isnt valuable at all). The savings is a wash, most ITs dont save very much their first year regardless where they are and IS 2 is only a year long contract, the IB experience after that year could easily make up for the savings and financial differences in moving to a higher tier IS. The workload on preps is also a wash, once you hit 4 preps youre not going to know if you are coming or going or what time it is anyway, 6 preps isnt going to feel much worse. 6 preps at an IS with growing pains is going to feel like 4 preps at an established IS thats going to expect your 'A' game for each and every lesson. As long as those 6 preps look decent on paper the classroom performance doesnt have to be stellar.
If IS 1 is a tier 1 IS and a daily active social/night life is important to you than IS 1 may be the better option with more coin on the table. IB has utility, many 2nd tier ISs are IB ISs and they bridge the career track between 3rd and 1st tier for a lot of ITs, but of the 3 (really 4) IB programs MYP has the least value.
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wrldtrvlr123
- Posts: 1173
- Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
- Location: Japan
Re: Offer vs. Offer, which would you take?
Congrats on getting two feasible offers. I don't have much to add to what has been offered as it doesn't really seem like there is a true right or wrong answer here. 6 preps seems insane to me but then again I am in learning support so I am kind of prep shy anyway.
At this point in your career, it is shocking to me but I actually almost agree with senator, go for the location you want to be in for a couple of years, then you can hope for better options to choose from the next time you go hunting. IB experience now would be nice but it's not a deal swayer in my opinion. Yes IB schools say they want IB experience but many of those schools still hire and train many teachers without IB experience every year.
If you do take offer two it's definitely an investment for the future as being in Europe on a weak package is not going to be all that much fun. We've lived in Europe and Asia and prefer Europe more for vacations.
Like I said, not much of value to offer really. Oh, I do think it is cute (and mildly offensive LOL) that you think coming to teaching in your 20's is "later in life". This decision isn't critical because you are fortunate to have plenty of time pad your CV and work your way to an ideal school/location/package balance. Enjoy whatever you decide.
At this point in your career, it is shocking to me but I actually almost agree with senator, go for the location you want to be in for a couple of years, then you can hope for better options to choose from the next time you go hunting. IB experience now would be nice but it's not a deal swayer in my opinion. Yes IB schools say they want IB experience but many of those schools still hire and train many teachers without IB experience every year.
If you do take offer two it's definitely an investment for the future as being in Europe on a weak package is not going to be all that much fun. We've lived in Europe and Asia and prefer Europe more for vacations.
Like I said, not much of value to offer really. Oh, I do think it is cute (and mildly offensive LOL) that you think coming to teaching in your 20's is "later in life". This decision isn't critical because you are fortunate to have plenty of time pad your CV and work your way to an ideal school/location/package balance. Enjoy whatever you decide.
Re: Offer vs. Offer, which would you take?
PsyGuy wrote:
> of the 3 (really 4) IB programs MYP has the least value.
Why is that?
> of the 3 (really 4) IB programs MYP has the least value.
Why is that?
Re: Offer vs. Offer, which would you take?
If it weren't for the 6 preps, I would go with getting IB experience. But 6 preps plus less savings to pay off loans sounds like a lot of stress for a line on your resume that, at the end of the day, could mean very little. If you work on implementing strong curricula at IS 1, that could be just as impressive when you search for your next job. I could be wrong on this, but I also would think a future recruiter would realize you couldn't possibly have done a good job with 6 preps, and maybe question what that prior experience could really bring to their school.
Re: Offer vs. Offer, which would you take?
Personally, I'd take the asian offer. Teach well, get some good PD, read professionally, and transitioning into IB or AP wouldn't be much of a problem. Most of all, have a blog or website to showcase all your hard work for future employers. At the end of the day, it all comes down to how you pitch your skills and value. Even the most experienced AP/IB teachers have to go through the same painful process year after year. Here are some perceived myths about IT.
Myth 1: Tier 1 schools hire only experienced AP/IB teachers.
Reality: Tier 1 schools also hire fresh grads out of college.
Myth 2: AP/IB teachers get paid more.
Reality: Most established schools have a fixed point-based salary scale.
Myth 3: You need an advanced degree to get hired by an elite school.
Reality: Even heads of established schools have bachelors degrees and learned on the job themselves.
Myth 1: Tier 1 schools hire only experienced AP/IB teachers.
Reality: Tier 1 schools also hire fresh grads out of college.
Myth 2: AP/IB teachers get paid more.
Reality: Most established schools have a fixed point-based salary scale.
Myth 3: You need an advanced degree to get hired by an elite school.
Reality: Even heads of established schools have bachelors degrees and learned on the job themselves.
Last edited by fine dude on Sun May 01, 2016 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reply
@coffeeman65
IB experience is very valuable, integrating Inquiry based meds/peds is not a substitute for actual IB experience. Thee are 1st tier IB ISs, and they arent a small group that will not talk to you if you do not have IB experience, it doesnt matter what you show them, or how good your pitch is. At fairs they have pre-screeners that go through the line and prune those who dont have IB experience.
As to the myths:
1) Yes 1st tier ISs hire ITs who are fresh grads, someone also wins the lottery.
2) School leaving ITs (AP/A*/IB) ITs dont get paid more at individual ISs as many ISs have some form of fixed scale, but they do generally make more over the course of their careers, as they have a general tendency to move up and through tiers faster.
3) You dont need an advance degree, but many upper tier ITs have one.
@shadylane
The CRP/CP (Career Related Program) isnt used very much in IE, its primarily directed at DSs that have a vocational track that isnt seen in IE.
PYP is the most different from a Meds/Peds perspective with its theme focused UI (Units of Inquiry), most primary DTs are trained to teach distinct subjects that focus on literacy, numeracy and arts. Learning inquiry isnt the problem, its integrating those units with the goal of building a portfolio is a big change for many primary ITs. Many ITs with young learners who arent at the production stage of writing yet struggle with the concept of portfolios, and integrating maths/science into themes sometimes seems forced. It takes a lot more planing and collaboration because you have to have your UI planed out before you start it.
DIP is the most prescribed, its a checklist of objectives on a course outline. Its very similar and congruent for anyone that has ever taught A levels or AP. If you can teach one you can teach the others with very little adaptation. Most IB ITs dont have to concern themselves with knowing much about Essay, TOK, or CAS, they really just need to know the IB learner profile, and the marking/grading schemes.
MYP until recently wasnt much of anything. Its what ISs/DSs bought so they could call themselves "IB World Schools" but it was Jello essentially, its whatever an IS wanted it to be. You could do a local/national curriculum add the terminology (IB learner Profile) and all you had to do was continue portfolio and do Project at the end of year 5. The MYP has become more prescribed but the requirements are still pretty low. Its 8 subjects and 50 hours of instruction in each subject each year, most ITs will finish that in the middle of there 3rd month of the academic term. While there is more prescription:There are now project options depending on how long the MYP is. ISs use to avoid the MYP project all together by not having a year 5. There is also one UI (IU) integrated unit that combines two subject groups and there is now an option for external moderation exams that allow MYP students to earn an MYP certificate. All that might sound like its very different but it comes down to a short checklist of objectives that many ITs can adapt to without much work. Its the closest to the traditional way organizing a course and subject. An MYP IT can put up the IB Learner Profile Posters and the sphere, align their yearly lessons and never have to do it again. It takes more time to print, laminate and hang the posters than aligning the objectives. Its very low stress, compared to DIP, there isnt a requirement to undergo moderation, and in IE having an MYP certificate doesnt mean very much. There isnt the pressure in MYP on examinations as there is in DIP.
IB experience is very valuable, integrating Inquiry based meds/peds is not a substitute for actual IB experience. Thee are 1st tier IB ISs, and they arent a small group that will not talk to you if you do not have IB experience, it doesnt matter what you show them, or how good your pitch is. At fairs they have pre-screeners that go through the line and prune those who dont have IB experience.
As to the myths:
1) Yes 1st tier ISs hire ITs who are fresh grads, someone also wins the lottery.
2) School leaving ITs (AP/A*/IB) ITs dont get paid more at individual ISs as many ISs have some form of fixed scale, but they do generally make more over the course of their careers, as they have a general tendency to move up and through tiers faster.
3) You dont need an advance degree, but many upper tier ITs have one.
@shadylane
The CRP/CP (Career Related Program) isnt used very much in IE, its primarily directed at DSs that have a vocational track that isnt seen in IE.
PYP is the most different from a Meds/Peds perspective with its theme focused UI (Units of Inquiry), most primary DTs are trained to teach distinct subjects that focus on literacy, numeracy and arts. Learning inquiry isnt the problem, its integrating those units with the goal of building a portfolio is a big change for many primary ITs. Many ITs with young learners who arent at the production stage of writing yet struggle with the concept of portfolios, and integrating maths/science into themes sometimes seems forced. It takes a lot more planing and collaboration because you have to have your UI planed out before you start it.
DIP is the most prescribed, its a checklist of objectives on a course outline. Its very similar and congruent for anyone that has ever taught A levels or AP. If you can teach one you can teach the others with very little adaptation. Most IB ITs dont have to concern themselves with knowing much about Essay, TOK, or CAS, they really just need to know the IB learner profile, and the marking/grading schemes.
MYP until recently wasnt much of anything. Its what ISs/DSs bought so they could call themselves "IB World Schools" but it was Jello essentially, its whatever an IS wanted it to be. You could do a local/national curriculum add the terminology (IB learner Profile) and all you had to do was continue portfolio and do Project at the end of year 5. The MYP has become more prescribed but the requirements are still pretty low. Its 8 subjects and 50 hours of instruction in each subject each year, most ITs will finish that in the middle of there 3rd month of the academic term. While there is more prescription:There are now project options depending on how long the MYP is. ISs use to avoid the MYP project all together by not having a year 5. There is also one UI (IU) integrated unit that combines two subject groups and there is now an option for external moderation exams that allow MYP students to earn an MYP certificate. All that might sound like its very different but it comes down to a short checklist of objectives that many ITs can adapt to without much work. Its the closest to the traditional way organizing a course and subject. An MYP IT can put up the IB Learner Profile Posters and the sphere, align their yearly lessons and never have to do it again. It takes more time to print, laminate and hang the posters than aligning the objectives. Its very low stress, compared to DIP, there isnt a requirement to undergo moderation, and in IE having an MYP certificate doesnt mean very much. There isnt the pressure in MYP on examinations as there is in DIP.