Country-native headteachers

expatscot
Posts: 307
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:26 am

Country-native headteachers

Post by expatscot »

Starting to think about future possibilities, and one thing which niggles me is this. I've noticed that, while many schools have a headteacher who comes from or has trained in the country from which their curriculum originates (eg the UK for a British school, the USA for an American school, etc) there are some schools where the headteacher comes from the country in which the school is based.

Now, maybe I'm being unreasonable here, and I know that there will be some of these heads who are great leaders and managers, just as there are incompetent UK and US heads. But I have this feeling when I see these schools that alarm bells should be ringing about the school and, in particular, its culture. Does that seem fair?
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Reponse

Post by PsyGuy »

Would do you think is fair? If you had a Japanese IS in the west somewhere and and the IS hired a mostly Japanese staff, wouldnt you want a local in a leadership role to make sure the appropriate regulations, and rules were followed, who knew the local culture and could communicate in the native language with various stakeholders?
An IS needs a liaison between the western culture brought in by the foreign ITs who support the curriculum and bring western meds/peds within the confines of the classroom, but would potentially cause problems outside the classroom. You want a gatekeeper to insulate those foreign ITs from the business and administrative aspects of the culture the IS is located in. Who better than a local to know how things are done and how to get things done.
wrldtrvlr123
Posts: 1173
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
Location: Japan

Re: Country-native headteachers

Post by wrldtrvlr123 »

expatscot wrote:
> Starting to think about future possibilities, and one thing which niggles
> me is this. I've noticed that, while many schools have a headteacher who
> comes from or has trained in the country from which their curriculum
> originates (eg the UK for a British school, the USA for an American school,
> etc) there are some schools where the headteacher comes from the country in
> which the school is based.
>
> Now, maybe I'm being unreasonable here, and I know that there will be some
> of these heads who are great leaders and managers, just as there are
> incompetent UK and US heads. But I have this feeling when I see these
> schools that alarm bells should be ringing about the school and, in
> particular, its culture. Does that seem fair?
----------------------------------
While it is difficult to generalize with any accuracy, a significant percentage of good to great schools will likely have head teachers that come from/were trained in a country other then the one where the school is located. In some places like the ME, China etc, having a local head teacher, principal etc can be a tip off that the school is more likely to be for profit, less international, less teacher friendly etc. Maybe I am also wrong on this but it is fairly easy to look up the admin of various schools and come to your own conclusions.

I do think that having a local representative as a liaison with the community/country is useful but this can be accomplished with a native business manager, office manager, etc. I would generally feel more comfortable (although it wouldn't be a deal breaker) if my admin were western trained/were int'l educators etc for a number of reasons. That being said, there are plenty of very bad schools with western admin who are willing puppets of owners/board who take advantage or exploit their int'l teachers or who are good people but have absolutely no power to do anything or fight for anyone.

It's not conclusive but certainly one piece of information to keep in mind.
shadowjack
Posts: 2138
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:49 am

Re: Country-native headteachers

Post by shadowjack »

PG - as listed, those gatekeepers are likely to be the Personnel Manager, Business Manager, Government Liaison Officer, or Assistant Superintendent/Director. That's how it works at all the schools I've been at.

Not saying that having a local as a director is bad or wrong - but to get the expertise I would like to work under means graduating from a program in a Western country, spending time as a classroom teacher, and working through the system so that he or she has intimate knowledge and experience with a wide range of facets dealing with the nuts and bolts of managing an IS.

Just my two halalas,

Shad
inmortus
Posts: 55
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:55 am

Re: Country-native headteachers

Post by inmortus »

Wow, it's so disheartening to see the ugly sides of this profession where people who claim to be internationally minded think "international school" means "western school" (whatever "western" means by the way), and that a "non-western" head teacher is probably a red flag...

Great to see that bias and discrimination are alive and well in the international teachers market...

Personally, I think that like many things regarding the IS world (and the world in general): you should not really generalize. I have seen absolutely horrible head teachers and people in leadership positions that have been trained in the US, UK, Australia, etc. I have also seen some great ones. I have also seen horrible local head teachers from places around the world and some really great ones.

Sure, training may have something to do with it, but for leadership positions I find moral fibre and an understanding of the institution and its people to be of much more value...

To Shad: I get your point, but I still think you can't really generalize like that. Many international schools have also a good amount of local teachers; when the head teacher is not local, they don't get the benefits you are referring to, but they do when the head teacher is local. There are always two sides there... I have also known great local head teachers who have been at it for so long, that they do have the expertise, knowledge and understanding of the "nuts and bolts of managing an IS".

Also, I don't see "graduating from a program in a Western country" as any sort of quality guarantee. Not at all. Many "local" universities in many cities in the world have high quality programs... Sure, maybe not in random small cities in difficult locations, but there are certainly good education programs in certain parts of Asia, SA and even Africa...

Again, all I am saying is: don't generalize on this. Each case is difference. Don't assume that having a local head teachers immediately means the place is not worth your time...
wrldtrvlr123
Posts: 1173
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
Location: Japan

Re: Country-native headteachers

Post by wrldtrvlr123 »

inmortus wrote:
> Wow, it's so disheartening to see the ugly sides of this profession where people
> who claim to be internationally minded think "international school" means "western
> school" (whatever "western" means by the way), and that a "non-western" head teacher
> is probably a red flag...
>
> Great to see that bias and discrimination are alive and well in the international
> teachers market...
>
> Personally, I think that like many things regarding the IS world (and the world in
> general): you should not really generalize. I have seen absolutely horrible head
> teachers and people in leadership positions that have been trained in the US, UK,
> Australia, etc. I have also seen some great ones. I have also seen horrible local
> head teachers from places around the world and some really great ones.

> Sure, training may have something to do with it, but for leadership positions I find
> moral fibre and an understanding of the institution and its people to be of much
> more value...
>
> To Shad: I get your point, but I still think you can't really generalize like that.
> Many international schools have also a good amount of local teachers; when the head
> teacher is not local, they don't get the benefits you are referring to, but they
> do when the head teacher is local. There are always two sides there... I have also
> known great local head teachers who have been at it for so long, that they do have
> the expertise, knowledge and understanding of the "nuts and bolts of managing an
> IS".
>
> Also, I don't see "graduating from a program in a Western country" as any sort of
> quality guarantee. Not at all. Many "local" universities in many cities in the world
> have high quality programs... Sure, maybe not in random small cities in difficult
> locations, but there are certainly good education programs in certain parts of Asia,
> SA and even Africa...
>
> Again, all I am saying is: don't generalize on this. Each case is difference. Don't
> assume that having a local head teachers immediately means the place is not worth
> your time...
-----------------------------------------------
I can only assume that your high horse is SO high that it has affected your reading comprehension since I didn't see anyone claiming that all local (does that make you feel better?) headteachers are bad and/or that all schools that hire local headteachers are bad schools. But, it is something to consider for many reasons. I could list several that have nothing to do with bias and discrimination but I don't think your delicate sensibilities are up for it.

In your rush to be offended you miss the point that the concept of an international school does imply an international culture, flavor and background of the majority of the admin, the teachers and hopefully a significant portion of the students. Does it have to be western in nature? No, but the vast majority of people posting on this forum are from western countries (a useful generic term but nothing that should offend anyone) and so they would be looking for and discussing schools that are international in nature from a western perspective. There is nothing wrong with a school for locals, by locals and run by locals but that would be a different school and a different forum.

If you prefer to work for local admin/owners then by all means make a career of it. In "general" you should have an easier time finding jobs in those schools (again for many valid reasons that I won't bother to list for fear you will accuse me of other crimes against humanity).

The OP asked a reasonable questions and received several reasonable responses. It does not serve you (or the forum) well to jump in and accuse posters (who are generally considered fairly moderate contributors) of something ugly.
Nomad68
Posts: 175
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:50 pm
Location: East of nowhere you want to be

Re: Country-native headteachers

Post by Nomad68 »

In the Middle East a local/regional Head would be a worry to me. I have not experienced (or been told by others) anything good about such appointments. I admit that may be a prejudice about how a local hired head here can become a nightmare. (Equally, I have worked for some indescribably bad British and North American Heads out here). In other regions that might not be the case (or not quite as bad a scenario) but in the ME I would say it can be.
inmortus
Posts: 55
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:55 am

Re: Country-native headteachers

Post by inmortus »

@wrldtrvlr123 : I am not offended, at all. It would seem you are though... Please excuse me if I offended you by stating that bluntly stating that a school having a local head should be a red flag sounds prejudiced in nature and that we should avoid generalizing. I was, in fact, not stating anything too different than what you yourself said about there being many bad western schools with western admin...

Also: I think your understanding or view of what an international school is, is quite limited (my personal opinion); a school being "international" is much more than one that has western teachers in non-western setting. IS can take many many forms: American schools in asia, British schools in Africa, schools that have no specific nation-denomination but with an international curriculum and diverse student body, but also schools that may not have such a diverse student body but do have international programs in place with a wide percentage of international faculty, and many others. It's very, very debatable: some people might say that (i.e. not making reference to any specific school) an American school with over 90% american students and 90% american teachers running an american curriculum somewhere in Japan is less international than an Argentinian school with an Argentinian head teacher having 50% international staff, diverse student body and running the IB continuum. And the thing is, people come to this forum for many different reasons, including finding information about schools like both of the previously mentioned examples.

Anyway, again, sorry if I offended you by stating that raising a red flag on a school based on a head teacher's nation of origin sounds quite prejudiced and that we should not generalize.

I will stick to that point though (the not generalizing). There are too many "it depends" on that equation... maybe in some regions more than others.... maybe depending on the specific individuals.... maybe depending on the specific school... maybe depending on the personality of the teacher and how open minded they are... maybe it can be a red flag.... maybe it can mean nothing at all...
s0830887
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:46 am

Re: Country-native headteachers

Post by s0830887 »

Immortus, you're trying to avoid generalising and stereotyping, which is great, because it's what we were taught in school again and again and again. Ultimately though the 'don't generalise' rule is a nice idea but kinda complicates things. I see no problem with generalising - it's making a 'general' comment about the way things are that would probably hold up 'generally' correct if you took a large cross section of data. Generalising itself isn't necessarily bad. There's a difference between the generalisation 'Generally, IS' with local headteachers are less rigorous with standards and ambition than IS' with western headteachers' and 'women aren't as smart as men'. One of those (to me) is clearly daft and should be discouraged, while one of those is simply a general comment about the way things are. Is making the generalisation 'Men are more aggressive than women' incorrect purely because we don't want to stereotype?

Anyway, yes it can very well be true that ISs run by local headteachers can be more 'for-profit' than those run by international headteachers. It is my understanding that the very best schools all have western Heads, while the local for-profit IS-in-name-only schools are almost exclusively run by local headteachers. The schools in the middle are all on the somewhere in-between. So, maybe we can't say 'having a local headteacher means the school is more likely to be run heavily for profit and with lower standards' but surely we can say something like 'local for profit slack schools are usually run by local headteachers'. Alternatively, maybe I've very publicly shown myself up to be a racist, sexist ass who knows nothing about nothing.
wrldtrvlr123
Posts: 1173
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
Location: Japan

Re: Country-native headteachers

Post by wrldtrvlr123 »

inmortus wrote:
> @wrldtrvlr123 : I am not offended, at all. It would seem you are though...
> Please excuse me if I offended you by stating that bluntly stating that a
> school having a local head should be a red flag sounds prejudiced in nature
> and that we should avoid generalizing. I was, in fact, not stating anything
> too different than what you yourself said about there being many bad
> western schools with western admin...
>
> Also: I think your understanding or view of what an international school
> is, is quite limited (my personal opinion); a school being
> "international" is much more than one that has western teachers
> in non-western setting. IS can take many many forms: American schools in
> asia, British schools in Africa, schools that have no specific
> nation-denomination but with an international curriculum and diverse
> student body, but also schools that may not have such a diverse student
> body but do have international programs in place with a wide percentage of
> international faculty, and many others. It's very, very debatable: some
> people might say that (i.e. not making reference to any specific school) an
> American school with over 90% american students and 90% american teachers
> running an american curriculum somewhere in Japan is less international
> than an Argentinian school with an Argentinian head teacher having 50%
> international staff, diverse student body and running the IB continuum. And
> the thing is, people come to this forum for many different reasons,
> including finding information about schools like both of the previously
> mentioned examples.
>
> Anyway, again, sorry if I offended you by stating that raising a red flag
> on a school based on a head teacher's nation of origin sounds quite
> prejudiced and that we should not generalize.
>
> I will stick to that point though (the not generalizing). There are too
> many "it depends" on that equation... maybe in some regions more
> than others.... maybe depending on the specific individuals.... maybe
> depending on the specific school... maybe depending on the personality of
> the teacher and how open minded they are... maybe it can be a red flag....
> maybe it can mean nothing at all...
--------------
Your naivete is delicious.
wrldtrvlr123
Posts: 1173
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
Location: Japan

Re: Country-native headteachers

Post by wrldtrvlr123 »

s0830887 wrote:
> Immortus, you're trying to avoid generalising and stereotyping, which is
> great, because it's what we were taught in school again and again and
> again. Ultimately though the 'don't generalise' rule is a nice idea but
> kinda complicates things. I see no problem with generalising - it's making
> a 'general' comment about the way things are that would probably hold up
> 'generally' correct if you took a large cross section of data. Generalising
> itself isn't necessarily bad. There's a difference between the
> generalisation 'Generally, IS' with local headteachers are less rigorous
> with standards and ambition than IS' with western headteachers' and 'women
> aren't as smart as men'. One of those (to me) is clearly daft and should be
> discouraged, while one of those is simply a general comment about the way
> things are. Is making the generalisation 'Men are more aggressive than
> women' incorrect purely because we don't want to stereotype?
>
> Anyway, yes it can very well be true that ISs run by local headteachers can
> be more 'for-profit' than those run by international headteachers. It is my
> understanding that the very best schools all have western Heads, while the
> local for-profit IS-in-name-only schools are almost exclusively run by
> local headteachers. The schools in the middle are all on the somewhere
> in-between. So, maybe we can't say 'having a local headteacher means the
> school is more likely to be run heavily for profit and with lower
> standards' but surely we can say something like 'local for profit slack
> schools are usually run by local headteachers'. Alternatively, maybe I've
> very publicly shown myself up to be a racist, sexist ass who knows nothing
> about nothing.
------------------------
Yes, with your contribution on the Egypt thread I'm surprised there isn't a fatwah on your head yet (or at least a condemning post from the more enlightened souls around here).
shadowjack
Posts: 2138
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:49 am

Re: Country-native headteachers

Post by shadowjack »

Immortus,

I get what you are saying, and it would not be the reason I would go to or not go to an IS. In my mind I have a list of schools I would go to and not go to. The list isn't immutable and whether the head is a local national or not isn't even on my radar. But, that said, to give an example, if I were in China and the director was a Chinese business person with no education degree, I wouldn't be taking that job.
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Discussion

Post by PsyGuy »

If we can all remember the general consensus that personal attacks are reserved for being directed to PsyGuy.

@WT123

A number of the elite or 1st tier ISs in select regions employee both and academic and business members of senior leadership, the academic member often being western and the business member being local. In practice the local member is typically senior to the academic member, in regards that the local member has authority over financial matters that the academic member needs approval for and the business member doesnt need the academic members approval for anything.

@inmortus

@wt123 and other contributors make a significant case that i dont disagree with. Whatever the factors are that lead to the outcome that the larger the leadership team is of local members and the appointments they occupy, the more likely the IS is to have quality issues that conflict with western meds/peds of education as western ITs understand and experience. Yes there is horrible western leadership, but when making claims of a relationship between quality of an ISs program and leadership, origination of that leadership and their training is a valid factor. Though the strength of that factor is debatable, it does exist, and the contributors of the forum would be remiss in not identifying it when appropriate. I would further concur with @Nomad68, that in certain regions such as the ME this issue is a greater concern for our readership considering the ME as a posting.

@SJ

While those individuals can be the gate keepers, it is not uncommon for that role to be part of the job responsibilities of senior leadership, especially in a small IS that doesnt have those staff members that you listed, where the leadership team consists of only 1-2 members and a secretary.

In some ways a previous educator in leadership, while having more authenticity and credibility with faculty, may not be the best choice for leadership where a more management background is appropriate. Leadership doesnt work for the faculty, they may be in the role of advocating for faculty when the needs of the business portion of the IS and the academic needs of the IS are congruent, but leadership is ownerships representative not the facultys.

@s0830887

While I generally concur with the premises of your post, I would add that adding the term "Generally" to a statement can be seen as a license to claim whatever the writer wants.
wrldtrvlr123
Posts: 1173
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
Location: Japan

Re: Country-native headteachers

Post by wrldtrvlr123 »

> @WT123
>
> A number of the elite or 1st tier ISs in select regions employee both and academic
> and business members of senior leadership, the academic member often being western
> and the business member being local. In practice the local member is typically senior
> to the academic member, in regards that the local member has authority over financial
> matters that the academic member needs approval for and the business member doesnt
> need the academic members approval for anything.
--------------------------
The OP was talking about Head Teachers which is a far different job than that of a business manager. Having a local business manager often makes logistical sense and is very different scenario then I referenced (although in fact I did talk about having a local gatekeepers being completely different situation than having a local HT).

So, do you now want to make the case that a number of elite or 1st tier ISs employ local Head Teachers to run the school?
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@WT123

I am aware what the OP wrote, please re-read the post, I did not refer to a "business manager". I referred to the business MEMBER of the senior leadership team often appointed to the senior most leadership role in the business operations portion of an IS.

Sure, I can make that case. The director of WIS (Washington IS) in D.C. is a local. The Principal of CSFC (Cardiff Sixth Form College) in England is a local.
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