Career ITs and retirement

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az0116
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 4:51 am

Career ITs and retirement

Post by az0116 »

Hi all, I am a young IT with 3 years experience abroad straight out of college. I humbly look for advise on whether it is wise to continue on this career path or not.

A little background: I'm American, and teach art at a small embassy school in Europe. Pros: I earn around E 60k+ tax free, a light work load and am left alone in the classroom where I'm happiest. Cons: the school has incompetent admin, national curriculum teachers resent IBDP teachers for being brought in recently, IB teachers resent them back for being horrible at classroom management and passing us some kids who have not done homework their entire lives or know how to calculate fractions. The students are sweet but lazy. I wish I spent more time on intellectual conversations and less time on bureaucratic ones.
So I thought, ok, maybe it's time to switch to another school. I got on SEARCH and ISR and realize that there are some pretty bad schools out there, along with some terrible compensation packages. And considering the lack of retirement planning, even some higher tier school packages don't seem all that great. Meanwhile, friends back in the silicon valley are working to change education through tech and design companies, are well compensated and work in efficient environments on interesting projects, and don't worry about retirement. In other words, I'm having a crisis and wondering if I should pivot career-wise, return to the states and become a UX yuppie designer =P

However, I'm trying to keep in mind the lifestyle and travel opportunities, and that I actually like teaching. I'd like to ask all of you:

1. What is career advancement or goals to you? Do you just aim to become a better teacher? leadership? admin? landing at a top school?
2. Do you think you can retire from IT well? or will your retirement dependent upon investments and pension plans from a previous career?
3. Do you work on the side? Anyone freelance or something outside of tutoring?
4. Has the IT market kept up with inflation in the last 10+ years?
5. Just wondering: can anyone compare teaching at University level with teaching at high school level?

I realize I may sound ignorant and naive, so I thank you in advanced for correcting any misconceptions I have.
dantespal
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:19 am
Location: USA

Re: Career ITs and retirement

Post by dantespal »

Others can give you a better idea, but I don't think that you'll do much better salary-wise with your subject, experience, and generally how things are. DODDEA can match that. Otherwise, for a light work load, you have a great paying job.

I think that the IT market will continue to get worse as more people leave education to escape many of the kind of outsiders you described from silicon valley. Teaching in the US is horrific right now, in my opinion. After the housing bubble and mortgage swaps and all that dried up, Wallstreet and Silicon valley have turned their attention to the $$Billions of education dollars available. My career before teaching was higher end IT/management consulting. The people in education related, but outside education roles remind me of the bad attitudes (arrogance, believing they are the smartest person wherever they are, etc) is just as bad with that crowd, but they are like 3rd-stringers talent-wise. I wouldn't be happy in that environment.

Not all of the tech based ed firms are that way, but many are, including the ed branches of places like Apple.

Besides that, the ability to travel easily, unlimited knowledge on the internet, smaller world in general, has taken much of the adventure out of many overseas posts. At one time, few people were brave enough to venture to some remote exotic (to them) post, now there are tons of people. There are posts that are still roughing it, but they are disappearing relative to even a decade and certainly 2 decades ago. I can't see the trend reversing.

I'm kind of just jumping around now because of time---
Retirement is going to be what you make of it. The people who end up really well set in retirement in spite of a lower paying job made sacrifices along the way. A basic investing book (or website) will give you an idea of how much you'd need to set aside starting now to retire when and how you want. For many, many people (including me) this isn't looking pretty. The only thing that will allow me to stop working before I'm 90 is that I have permanent residence and family property in a developing country where I can live on much less than here.

But, if you find a job at a good, non-poverty, school in the US, you could earn roughly 2+% per year of your salary towards retirement. So, in Colorado, I've been back in the US 5 years, so I could receive 5x2.2=11% of my highest salary once I turn 60. Since you are much younger, it can add up. On the other hand, the chance that the corporatists will destroy pensions is pretty high.

Hopefully that at least starts a conversation for you. Good luck. It can be rewarding if you learn to work the system.
Overhere
Posts: 497
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:29 am

Re: Career ITs and retirement

Post by Overhere »

From someone who didn't, start saving early no matter where your career path takes you. Develop a plan and stick to it.
wrldtrvlr123
Posts: 1173
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
Location: Japan

Re: Career ITs and retirement

Post by wrldtrvlr123 »

The most important question is what do you want to be doing every day? If you want to teach students, be a teacher. From that decision, you can think about whether you should make a move to another school, etc.

As far as package goes, you sound like you are doing fine, but the devil is in the details. You say tax free, but is that just US tax free? Otherwise, where in Europe are you not paying taxes? Where do your heath benefits, pension etc come from? Do you get a housing allowance (as many schools in Europe do not offer one or what they offer is designed to only offset your housing costs to some extent). Depending on the details you may find that you could do better and/or as well (or near enough) at a different, more rewarding/intriguing school, possibly somewhere where the cost of living is lower.

Back to the most important question... If you are OK with the idea of working to change education (actually I'm still fairly confused by what that means since anyone doing anything to change/improve education outside of an actual school/classroom generally misses the mark by a large degree) without the rewards and challenges of being with actual students, then explore other options.

As for career paths, I am frequently mystified by anyone who would want to work in education without the rewards of having your own class, your own students. The idea of admin, counselor, specialist, consultant, etc just has absolutely no appeal for me. I came to teaching late and plan to teach until I drop (with the slim possibility that I will be able to have a decent retirement for a few years). I realize that not everyone feels this way and that is just fine.

My goal was to keep moving up to "better" international teaching/learning environments in locations that appealed to me and my family. Now, I am with DoDDS in the location of our choice and I don't foresee moving anytime soon. So, I will keep trying to be a better teacher, enjoy my students, my location, my vacations and possibly save some money (better late then never).

Yes, retirement funding is an issue for int'l teachers, much as it is for a significant number of people in many careers. Yes, it takes more discipline and planning (which we didn't have for many years) then working for a big company that provides the funding/planning but IMHO that should be way down on your list when determining your career path. Like is way too short to work/live for retirement and no one knows what the future may hold. You are much better doing what you love at work (virtually) every damn day and trying to strike a balance between enjoying yourself and investing a little something for the future.

TL;DR: Decide what you will enjoy doing 300+ days a year for most of the rest of your life and then plan around that.
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Response

Post by PsyGuy »

For most ITs the retirment/pension plan is:

1) They are already vested in a retirement program from when they were a DT.
2) The started saving and invested early and havent had any major issues.
3) They eventually move into a WE country where they can earn a pension.
4) They move into an elite tier IS that offers a retirement program.

For career ITs the plan is heavy on number 3. Asia doesnt often provide retirement, you might get a yearly bonus that you could use to invest but most use it for their holiday. A lot of ITs see leadership as an escape from the classroom and an increase in salary.

I will have 2 retirment programs to draw from when I retire.

Many ITs who have the skill sets do something on the side. They coach club sports, or do private music lessons, many just teach English on the side.

In regards to inflation, In someways yes and some ways no. There are different inflation values in different regions, and there are different components of an OSHs compensation package that can be immune to inflation. If an IS provides you with housing, then whatever increase in cost as a result of inflation is absorbed by the IS. An IS that is providing airfare is going to have to pay or reimburse whatever those costs are. ISs that give allowances are effected more by inflation, as the allowance doesnt have to absorb all the costs.
Some ISs mostly upper tier ISs have kept up or come close to keeping up with global inflation indexes, but in many regions the salary and compensation package compared to the local economy are essentially artifact in the margins. Inflation doesnt mean much when your compensation puts you in the top 1%. In 1st world regions such as the WE where housing packages generally arent available and you compare just salary of ITs to DTs they are similar curves.

Depends on the university and what your role is in the university. Many universities award research and publication far more than they do teaching. Senior professors get to teach more upper division courses with a handful of students compared to junior faculty who teach large lecture halls of students numbering in the hundreds. Probably the closest comparison would be a lecturer teaching English at an overseas university on a term contract to an IT at a lower tier IS.
In Universities you see a lot of lecturing or direct teach, talk and chalk instruction. Responsibility is on the students to learn not the professor/lecturer. At the undergrad level its more rote memorization. More examination assessment in lower division courses and more writing in upper division courses. You have far less behavior and classroom management issues, because you can call out misbehaving. You spend a lot more time marking papers then you do teaching. You can pretty much follow the textbooks power point, but youll spend huge amounts of time reading poorly written 20+ page essays multiply that by a couple hundred students in a lecture hall, and its like reading war and peace written by a group of monkeys.
Theres a lot less prep in University assuming you teach the same course year after year.
The research and publication part is the biggest difference, adjuncts dont publish but term contract lecturers usually do something.
az0116
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 4:51 am

Re: Career ITs and retirement

Post by az0116 »

Thanks all for the advise to save early. I have no debt, live below my means, try to save and invest around 30-40k a year. At this trajectory I think retirement is possible, though I doubt the likelihood of returning back to the Silicon Valley unless the housing market collapses + pension/SS. I doubt expat retirement communities known for cheap and good lifestyle will be cheap and good by the time I'm old, and I highly doubt I'll stay at this trajectory; looking around at the forums, having a family throws things out of whack.

On a different note, I'm also bothered that a lot of parents ask me, what is my child going to do now that she/he has fallen in love with art and wants to major in it in Uni? What kind of job can she/he get? And I can definitely give career advice, but I feel a bit strange having gone straight into teaching without too much foray into the art and design industry itself (outside of a bit a freelance). Sometimes I wonder if I shouldn't have come into teaching as an older (wiser?) woman =P

----

@wrldtrvlr123
What do I want to do every day? It's all so vague; the only answer I can give you is that I am a typical INTJ personality and I want to solve problems (and make art, swim, dance and sing opera lol). In that sense, I love the moment of optimizing a lesson or a classroom space slowly through trial and error, and seeing that change translate to more student enthusiasm and learning (and all the free time I get to do the other things). I realize the classroom may not be the only way the fulfill this, but it is not a bad way either.

My salary is just that, including housing; the reason it's tax free despite being in Europe is because this is a embassy school of SA with a strange financial jurisdiction as agreed between the two countries. Despite not having been to SA, I imagine it's like temporarily stepping into a slightly more liberal version of SA while at work, and then stepping back into Europe afterwards. So yes, I do think there are better schools out there. May I ask how many years it took you to get into the DoDDS and if you had experience back home?

My professor of education in university expressed similar ideas about people outside of teaching missing the mark in changing education, and he advised that if any of us wanted to become admin or change education outside of the structure, to first "fight on the front lines" as a teacher first. However, anyone who has been to a school with terrible admin, inconsistent internet, or uses collaborative learning technologies in the classroom can feel the difference outside factors make. There is an invisible system supporting (or shackling) us. I suppose each person looks at education and shakes his/her head in despair, and goes about tackling the problem on a multitude of levels. I just feel a little lost where I should be.

---

@PsyGuy
Thanks for the breakdown! I suppose I need to looking into option 3 a bit more as I have not really considered it. I don't think research and publication in a university is a bad thing, but yes, having recently been through the lecture hall system, I don't imagine it being all that great.

----

@dantespal
Thank you for your perspectives on education companies outside of the school systems. I am admittedly one foot in the bubble of the Silicon Valley since a great number of friends are there, so it's all unicorns and rainbows from their end. What's your opinion about nonprofits like KhanAcademy? MOOCs?

How did your return back to Colorado go? Was it a difficult re-entry? Are you in public or private?

----

Thank you all for taking the time to respond!
wrldtrvlr123
Posts: 1173
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
Location: Japan

Re: Career ITs and retirement

Post by wrldtrvlr123 »

az0116 wrote:
> Thanks all for the advise to save early. I have no debt, live below my means, try
> to save and invest around 30-40k a year. At this trajectory I think retirement
> is possible, though I doubt the likelihood of returning back to the Silicon Valley
> unless the housing market collapses + pension/SS. I doubt expat retirement communities
> known for cheap and good lifestyle will be cheap and good by the time I'm old, and
> I highly doubt I'll stay at this trajectory; looking around at the forums, having
> a family throws things out of whack.
>
> On a different note, I'm also bothered that a lot of parents ask me, what is my child
> going to do now that she/he has fallen in love with art and wants to major in it
> in Uni? What kind of job can she/he get? And I can definitely give career advice,
> but I feel a bit strange having gone straight into teaching without too much foray
> into the art and design industry itself (outside of a bit a freelance). Sometimes
> I wonder if I shouldn't have come into teaching as an older (wiser?) woman =P
>
> ----
>
> @wrldtrvlr123
> What do I want to do every day? It's all so vague; the only answer I can give you
> is that I am a typical INTJ personality and I want to solve problems (and make art,
> swim, dance and sing opera lol). In that sense, I love the moment of optimizing
> a lesson or a classroom space slowly through trial and error, and seeing that change
> translate to more student enthusiasm and learning (and all the free time I get to
> do the other things). I realize the classroom may not be the only way the fulfill
> this, but it is not a bad way either.
>
> My salary is just that, including housing; the reason it's tax free despite being
> in Europe is because this is a embassy school of SA with a strange financial jurisdiction
> as agreed between the two countries. Despite not having been to SA, I imagine it's
> like temporarily stepping into a slightly more liberal version of SA while at work,
> and then stepping back into Europe afterwards. So yes, I do think there are better
> schools out there. May I ask how many years it took you to get into the DoDDS and
> if you had experience back home?
>
> My professor of education in university expressed similar ideas about people outside
> of teaching missing the mark in changing education, and he advised that if any of
> us wanted to become admin or change education outside of the structure, to first
> "fight on the front lines" as a teacher first. However, anyone who has been to
> a school with terrible admin, inconsistent internet, or uses collaborative learning
> technologies in the classroom can feel the difference outside factors make. There
> is an invisible system supporting (or shackling) us. I suppose each person looks
> at education and shakes his/her head in despair, and goes about tackling the problem
> on a multitude of levels. I just feel a little lost where I should be.
------------------------------------------
You are doing about as well financially as you can be at this stage of your teaching career (and probably better than many/most).

I actually don't shake my head at the state of education. I'm pretty happy with what goes on in my school and in my class. I was also generally happy with my schools and classes in the states. I agree that poor admin, inadequate budgets can impact what goes on my classroom but things like dodgy internet and a lack of collaborative learning are just minor inconveniences. I was lucky enough to have some great teachers in school who did just fine with no internet and no trend of the month teaching strategies so to me the biggest influence on students and learning will always be the connection (or lack of it) with the teacher and the teacher's enthusiasm for their subject and/or learning (or the lack of it). I will allow for the possibility that someone in the Silicon Valley could be inventing something that will have a tremendous impact on education for the better but I also allow for UFO's and winning the lottery. It could happen I suppose.

I taught two years in one state, went overseas for 3 years, taught two more years in the states, went back overseas for two years and then got into DoDDS.

You are basically young enough to have a career (or two) and then still get back into teaching so if you yearn to do and try different things then you should do that.
nikkor
Posts: 218
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:59 pm

Re: Career ITs and retirement

Post by nikkor »

> 1. What is career advancement or goals to you? Do you just aim to become a better
> teacher? leadership? admin? landing at a top school?

For me, career advancement is professional, personal, and financial. Professionally, I'd like to continue to hone my craft, do my best, and benefit those I work with. Personally, I want to continue working in schools that offer positive work environments, and continue to travel and have amazing adventures for my entire life. Financially, I am willing to work in locations that provide the previous two things and allow teaching couples to save at least 40K a year.

> 2. Do you think you can retire from IT well? or will your retirement dependent upon
> investments and pension plans from a previous career?
Yes, given that you start early and understand that teaching couples will probably need almost 2million dollars to retire comfortably back in the US. Of course that number varies depending on a large number of things.

> 3. Do you work on the side? Anyone freelance or something outside of tutoring?
No

> 4. Has the IT market kept up with inflation in the last 10+ years?
Yes and no. There are still some great schools that have, but I feel like they are the minority. My belief is that with globalization further taking hold, it won't make economic sense to send expats and their families overseas, when locals are equally qualifies to do the same work for much less. Without large numbers of expat packages paying big tuitions, most tier one schools would need to compete with tier two schools for local students.

> 5. Just wondering: can anyone compare teaching at University level with teaching
> at high school level?
Not me.
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Discussion

Post by PsyGuy »

@az0116

Thailand had the same issue a couple decades back as a retirement destination, then Thailand got more expensive. Right now its the DR and Ecuador that are the "it" places to retire on the cheap.

A lot of people outside education think that teachers got into education because they couldnt do anything else, or werent successful at what they were doing. The artist that needs a paycheck because selling pieces on the weekend doesnt pay the bills is a common example, or the Actor that has to work at Starbucks and wait tables because the community theater they are in doesnt pay. There is always a small group of highly successful people in the arts that are banking major coin and then theres everyone else. The Kardashians dont help either.

Any education environment that has to be described as a "front line" isnt an environment thats likely conducive to education. ISs and DSs that have an ''us vs. them'' environment are ones i want to avoid (sadly its very true in my current school).

Ive tried flipped classrooms and Khan Academy has some great programs, it works better with at risk students who really need supplemental instruction because the DT in their DS checked out a long time ago and spends most of the day just getting students attention for a couple of minutes each period. Its not going to replace or effect the IE system very much

I generally concur with @nikkor, multi-nationals are sending fewer expats abroad and more competition for local nationals.
kris10msmith
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2015 12:50 pm

Re: Career ITs and retirement

Post by kris10msmith »

Do you like where you are? Honestly, it sounds like you've got a good thing going and you should stick with it. I've never taught overseas but I'm trying to. Here's some perspective - I've been teaching in the states for 16 years with an advanced degree, with some of the same problems you've mentioned. I don't make anywhere near 60k. And my work load is anything but light. I would kill for your gig. But, as they say, the grass is always greener.
senator
Posts: 384
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:53 am

Re: Career ITs and retirement

Post by senator »

Hey, Man,

You're a 3rd year art teacher. You should be on your hands and knees thanking the Almighty at having such a great position.

Saving 30-40k per year?! Do you know how great that is?

Grow up and stop worrying about (or pretending to worry about) a problem that doesn't exist.
Vernacular
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:49 am

Re: Career ITs and retirement

Post by Vernacular »

Let me know the contact details of your school. They'll have my resume a.s.a.p.
Consider this: what you claim to be stashing in the bank is many teachers' base salary. Unless the original post is just narcissistic attention seeking, or plain old fashioned chain yanking, I'd echo Senator's previous comments...
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