I was wondering about whether or not to attend the fair next year (2017). My husband and I have just registered for SA and we are already looking at which fairs to attend (BKK or London). I am still very hesitant as they are expensive and we could end up not getting a job offer. On the other hand, I have consulted with my colleagues and said that we would have a bigger chance of finding jobs because we would make a better impression in person than on paper.
A background on us:
- We have PYP training and experience. We are on our first stint teaching overseas in a PYP school and just renewed our contract.
- We have taught in an IS back home as local hires, but was a homeroom teacher then. All together, I have 8 years experience teaching in an IS at present, but husband has less.
- We're Asians, so we are non-native speakers and non-holders of a US/EU passport.
- We have 3 dependents.
- No advanced degrees
I want to plan ahead and prepare for whatever decision we may have. Thanks in advance!
Should we do the fair?
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Should we do the fair?
If you are the type who make better impressions in person than on paper, you should attend a fair. We attended the London fair years ago with no IB and no IS experience and ended up landing a decent job in spite of being picky. It took some networking and putting ourselves out there, but hubby is good at that. So I would say yes, go to the fair. You have enough positives on your resume that you should be able to land something, depending on how picky you are, what your goals are, etc.
However, prepare for an emotional roller coaster because fairs are by nature traumatic. Lots of stress, lots of stressed people, lots of pressure, and the inherent feelings of inadequacy and comparison. As long as you can handle the emotional aspect, be comfortable walking away having networked and getting the job AFTER the fair, etc. then go to a fair. If, however, the money is too stressful or if you don't feel you would fare well in a pressure situation, avoid the fair. Only you can decide if you are willing to be patient if not attending a fair (it's much harder to job hunt that way), if the fairs would show you to your best advantage, etc.
However, prepare for an emotional roller coaster because fairs are by nature traumatic. Lots of stress, lots of stressed people, lots of pressure, and the inherent feelings of inadequacy and comparison. As long as you can handle the emotional aspect, be comfortable walking away having networked and getting the job AFTER the fair, etc. then go to a fair. If, however, the money is too stressful or if you don't feel you would fare well in a pressure situation, avoid the fair. Only you can decide if you are willing to be patient if not attending a fair (it's much harder to job hunt that way), if the fairs would show you to your best advantage, etc.
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flipfuntasia
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:29 am
Re: Should we do the fair?
Thank you, @Thames! Our husbands are the same when it comes to networking. He's so great at it! But me, on the other hand, is better with the interview.
We are already saving up for the trip, so I think money is less of a problem than finding the right jobs. Being Asian in IE can be difficult when we compete with native speakers tbh, so I feel that we need to show up to put our best foot forward. We will do our best to be prepared for the fair that's why we applied early to SA.
Thanks for the vote of confidence. -flipfuntasia
We are already saving up for the trip, so I think money is less of a problem than finding the right jobs. Being Asian in IE can be difficult when we compete with native speakers tbh, so I feel that we need to show up to put our best foot forward. We will do our best to be prepared for the fair that's why we applied early to SA.
Thanks for the vote of confidence. -flipfuntasia
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Should we do the fair?
It sounds like you are like us in overpreparing, too! We cold-contacted our top choices early just introducing ourselves and expressing an interest in the school for future positions. Directors do remember that stuff. We took every hint and lead and piece of advice, weighed it, and acted based on what we perceived to be the best course of action. It paid off, and we are headed to our dream school, having done the final meet and greet at the fair.
One thing we did that helped was familiarize ourselves with the mission statements, important people, and strengths of our top choices. We made a document with names, titles, and whenever possible pictures of admin from our top schools. We looked at the website to see what themes emerged or what programs the school highlighted and how well they lined up with the mission statements. That way we could have a good reference and a leg up when meeting recruiters in elevators, for example. "Oh, you're Dr. Such-and-such from That School. I was so impressed with the Green Schools Initiative I saw mentioned on your website! Could you tell me more?" goes a long way. It also helps your 10 second pitch at signups, and if you do it early you can use that information to write more customized cover letters when expressing interest before the fair.
We also didn't do an Ichiro in the traditional sense, but one poster on here mentioned a side-by-side CV. That was a good one to slip into a box or even email that allowed recruiters to do a quick look at photos, degrees, experience, etc. for both of us. We got positive feedback on that, and the flexible formatting allowed us to highlight our strengths while minimizing our weaknesses in a way traditional CVs didn't.
We arrived to the fair early so we weren't jet lagged. We networked with our friends at schools with vacancies for us. While on a vacation in one of our target regions, we took the time to set up appointments with what schools we could just to see and be seen, learn about the schools in that region, practice interviewing, and network.
In other words, we worked every angle we could possibly think of in advance, then trusted our personality and networking would do the rest. It did.
One thing we did that helped was familiarize ourselves with the mission statements, important people, and strengths of our top choices. We made a document with names, titles, and whenever possible pictures of admin from our top schools. We looked at the website to see what themes emerged or what programs the school highlighted and how well they lined up with the mission statements. That way we could have a good reference and a leg up when meeting recruiters in elevators, for example. "Oh, you're Dr. Such-and-such from That School. I was so impressed with the Green Schools Initiative I saw mentioned on your website! Could you tell me more?" goes a long way. It also helps your 10 second pitch at signups, and if you do it early you can use that information to write more customized cover letters when expressing interest before the fair.
We also didn't do an Ichiro in the traditional sense, but one poster on here mentioned a side-by-side CV. That was a good one to slip into a box or even email that allowed recruiters to do a quick look at photos, degrees, experience, etc. for both of us. We got positive feedback on that, and the flexible formatting allowed us to highlight our strengths while minimizing our weaknesses in a way traditional CVs didn't.
We arrived to the fair early so we weren't jet lagged. We networked with our friends at schools with vacancies for us. While on a vacation in one of our target regions, we took the time to set up appointments with what schools we could just to see and be seen, learn about the schools in that region, practice interviewing, and network.
In other words, we worked every angle we could possibly think of in advance, then trusted our personality and networking would do the rest. It did.
Response
The rule is you go to the most competitive fair you can get an invite too. You will find you have three major issues:
1) You are both primary ITs, which is a saturated market, and your essentially competing against each other. Finding one primary appointment would be more competitive but that exacerbates issue 2.
2) You have three dependents for two ITs, whats likely is you will find few ISs with 2 primary vacancies who are going to want to fill those vacancies early. ISs typically save primary vacancies for teaching couples where one of the members of the couple is a high needs IT and the IS needs to appoint the spouse to primary as part of the offer. That results in a 5:1 ratio of traveling 5 people, housing, insuring and educating them to fill one primary classroom. Few ISs have an issue filling a primary post, they can hire a single IT at a lower OSH cost or a local IT/DT at even less cost, there isnt a need to provide nearly $30K in tuition/fees for primary ITs.
3) You arent westerners and based on your description your voice inflection likely sounds foreign. This is a weakness to many recruiters. You likely sell yourselves better in person, but in interviews and signup your just going to sound alien in a room of westerners or after hearing many candidates in interviews who speak natural English. A significant number of ISs want nothing to do with non-western candidates. They wont even get you in front of a recruiter once the screener confirms you arent westerners. They will ask for a copy of your passport and if it isnt US/UK/CAN/AUS its going to be rejected.
I would advise that you begin application for Primary vacancies early and attend the fair if you can secure a number of interviews in advance. By securing an interview you need a commitment to an interview slot by a recruiter, not an invitation to stop by their table during signup or contact them once your at the fair.
You have some time, so I would strongly consider one or both of you diversifying your credentials. Adding your native language as a FL or if you have an academic background in a field not identified as primary would make you a much more marketable couple.
1) You are both primary ITs, which is a saturated market, and your essentially competing against each other. Finding one primary appointment would be more competitive but that exacerbates issue 2.
2) You have three dependents for two ITs, whats likely is you will find few ISs with 2 primary vacancies who are going to want to fill those vacancies early. ISs typically save primary vacancies for teaching couples where one of the members of the couple is a high needs IT and the IS needs to appoint the spouse to primary as part of the offer. That results in a 5:1 ratio of traveling 5 people, housing, insuring and educating them to fill one primary classroom. Few ISs have an issue filling a primary post, they can hire a single IT at a lower OSH cost or a local IT/DT at even less cost, there isnt a need to provide nearly $30K in tuition/fees for primary ITs.
3) You arent westerners and based on your description your voice inflection likely sounds foreign. This is a weakness to many recruiters. You likely sell yourselves better in person, but in interviews and signup your just going to sound alien in a room of westerners or after hearing many candidates in interviews who speak natural English. A significant number of ISs want nothing to do with non-western candidates. They wont even get you in front of a recruiter once the screener confirms you arent westerners. They will ask for a copy of your passport and if it isnt US/UK/CAN/AUS its going to be rejected.
I would advise that you begin application for Primary vacancies early and attend the fair if you can secure a number of interviews in advance. By securing an interview you need a commitment to an interview slot by a recruiter, not an invitation to stop by their table during signup or contact them once your at the fair.
You have some time, so I would strongly consider one or both of you diversifying your credentials. Adding your native language as a FL or if you have an academic background in a field not identified as primary would make you a much more marketable couple.
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flipfuntasia
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:29 am
Re: Should we do the fair?
Thames Pirate wrote:
> We also didn't do an Ichiro in the traditional sense, but one poster on here mentioned
> a side-by-side CV. That was a good one to slip into a box or even email that allowed
> recruiters to do a quick look at photos, degrees, experience, etc. for both of us.
> We got positive feedback on that, and the flexible formatting allowed us to highlight
> our strengths while minimizing our weaknesses in a way traditional CVs didn't.
Such great advice! I am thinking about the side-by-side resume as our ichiro and how to format it in such a way that it is not cumbersome. I also like the document idea about the schools and their admins. We sometimes have trouble with names. Thanks for your positive spin on things!
PsyGuy wrote:
> 3) You arent westerners and based on your description your voice inflection likely
> sounds foreign. This is a weakness to many recruiters. You likely sell yourselves
> better in person, but in interviews and signup your just going to sound alien in
> a room of westerners or after hearing many candidates in interviews who speak natural
> English. A significant number of ISs want nothing to do with non-western candidates.
> They wont even get you in front of a recruiter once the screener confirms you arent
> westerners. They will ask for a copy of your passport and if it isnt US/UK/CAN/AUS
> its going to be rejected.
Just because I said I'm Asian, doesn't mean I sound foreign. This is why we are thinking of attending the fair. If you, just by reading my posts, are already thinking that I have an inflection, then you are mistaken. I don't sound alien, and I do have a better grasp of English idioms and expressions. I also have "natural" English (whatever that means). From my experience, ISs do post whether or not they want a native speaker as the candidate. We will stay clear of them.
> I would advise that you begin application for Primary vacancies early and attend
> the fair if you can secure a number of interviews in advance. By securing an interview
> you need a commitment to an interview slot by a recruiter, not an invitation to
> stop by their table during signup or contact them once your at the fair.
This is something we plan to do, already look into possible schools way ahead of our planned fair. We will do our best to contact them ahead so we can schedule an interview with them. That's why we are working on our applications now so we can hit the ground running come recruitment time next school year.
> You have some time, so I would strongly consider one or both of you diversifying
> your credentials. Adding your native language as a FL or if you have an academic
> background in a field not identified as primary would make you a much more marketable
> couple.
My teaching license is up to secondary, but I do not have experience. Doesn't SA discourage placing choices you don't have experience teaching?
Thanks, @Thames and @PG! What you shared were really helpful. We will do our best to prepare if and when we do decide to attend a fair.
> We also didn't do an Ichiro in the traditional sense, but one poster on here mentioned
> a side-by-side CV. That was a good one to slip into a box or even email that allowed
> recruiters to do a quick look at photos, degrees, experience, etc. for both of us.
> We got positive feedback on that, and the flexible formatting allowed us to highlight
> our strengths while minimizing our weaknesses in a way traditional CVs didn't.
Such great advice! I am thinking about the side-by-side resume as our ichiro and how to format it in such a way that it is not cumbersome. I also like the document idea about the schools and their admins. We sometimes have trouble with names. Thanks for your positive spin on things!
PsyGuy wrote:
> 3) You arent westerners and based on your description your voice inflection likely
> sounds foreign. This is a weakness to many recruiters. You likely sell yourselves
> better in person, but in interviews and signup your just going to sound alien in
> a room of westerners or after hearing many candidates in interviews who speak natural
> English. A significant number of ISs want nothing to do with non-western candidates.
> They wont even get you in front of a recruiter once the screener confirms you arent
> westerners. They will ask for a copy of your passport and if it isnt US/UK/CAN/AUS
> its going to be rejected.
Just because I said I'm Asian, doesn't mean I sound foreign. This is why we are thinking of attending the fair. If you, just by reading my posts, are already thinking that I have an inflection, then you are mistaken. I don't sound alien, and I do have a better grasp of English idioms and expressions. I also have "natural" English (whatever that means). From my experience, ISs do post whether or not they want a native speaker as the candidate. We will stay clear of them.
> I would advise that you begin application for Primary vacancies early and attend
> the fair if you can secure a number of interviews in advance. By securing an interview
> you need a commitment to an interview slot by a recruiter, not an invitation to
> stop by their table during signup or contact them once your at the fair.
This is something we plan to do, already look into possible schools way ahead of our planned fair. We will do our best to contact them ahead so we can schedule an interview with them. That's why we are working on our applications now so we can hit the ground running come recruitment time next school year.
> You have some time, so I would strongly consider one or both of you diversifying
> your credentials. Adding your native language as a FL or if you have an academic
> background in a field not identified as primary would make you a much more marketable
> couple.
My teaching license is up to secondary, but I do not have experience. Doesn't SA discourage placing choices you don't have experience teaching?
Thanks, @Thames and @PG! What you shared were really helpful. We will do our best to prepare if and when we do decide to attend a fair.
Reply
@flipfuntasia
The basis of my position regarding your English fluency is from your initial post where you stated "We're Asians, so we are non-native speakers".
Native fluency is a grade of technical expertise in a language (listening, speaking, writing and reading). It is possible for a language learner to develop technical fluency and through practice and use develop natural sounding speech patterns. The difference between a native speaker and naturally fluent is in the use of non verbal communication in interpersonal communication. Im sure you do have a better grasp on idioms, but they arent native. You should realize that you are likely easily identifiable as an alien/foreign speaker after only brief observation.
Some ISs do do post language origination requirements. In the majority of cases that do its because of regulatory or immigration requirements. When no such requirement exists, non-speakers are just rejected during the screening process. Its one piece of information they get from requesting your passport with application. Though you can tell easily from a brief review of an applicants resume/CV.
I would avoid the side by side resume Ichiro, you would get more interest and options recruiting as individual ITs. You can potentially attend twice as many interviews, and determine based on any potential offers if the package is sufficient for only one of you being appointed, and using your spouses native language proficiency as a negotiating option.
Yes premium agencies (SA) discourage marketing outside of your experience, but its not prohibited, and it expands your marketability. No one at SA is going to do anything for you if the limits you place on yourself result in you not being successful.
You were an HRT, is both you and your spouses academic preparation/training solely in education? Even in PYP and primary there are content area specializations. A specialized academic background in a classic teaching field could be pitched to recruiters/ISs as a primary subject specialist AND/OR as a JHS/lower secondary IT. Even dual language proficiency absent of specific certification could be presented/pitched as Language Support, or an immersion classroom.
Another option is to focus on non-western ISs. JP (and SK, CH) all have various ISs that are marketed to JP students (Nihonjin gakko) and families from their respective regions. Your dual training and experience in the MEXT Course of Study (NC curriculum) and western IB methodologies would be very attractive. You may even find an opportunity to move into leadership as a coordinator or AP, etc. for a small IS pursuing IB, especially if you have your advance kyoshoku menkyo.
The basis of my position regarding your English fluency is from your initial post where you stated "We're Asians, so we are non-native speakers".
Native fluency is a grade of technical expertise in a language (listening, speaking, writing and reading). It is possible for a language learner to develop technical fluency and through practice and use develop natural sounding speech patterns. The difference between a native speaker and naturally fluent is in the use of non verbal communication in interpersonal communication. Im sure you do have a better grasp on idioms, but they arent native. You should realize that you are likely easily identifiable as an alien/foreign speaker after only brief observation.
Some ISs do do post language origination requirements. In the majority of cases that do its because of regulatory or immigration requirements. When no such requirement exists, non-speakers are just rejected during the screening process. Its one piece of information they get from requesting your passport with application. Though you can tell easily from a brief review of an applicants resume/CV.
I would avoid the side by side resume Ichiro, you would get more interest and options recruiting as individual ITs. You can potentially attend twice as many interviews, and determine based on any potential offers if the package is sufficient for only one of you being appointed, and using your spouses native language proficiency as a negotiating option.
Yes premium agencies (SA) discourage marketing outside of your experience, but its not prohibited, and it expands your marketability. No one at SA is going to do anything for you if the limits you place on yourself result in you not being successful.
You were an HRT, is both you and your spouses academic preparation/training solely in education? Even in PYP and primary there are content area specializations. A specialized academic background in a classic teaching field could be pitched to recruiters/ISs as a primary subject specialist AND/OR as a JHS/lower secondary IT. Even dual language proficiency absent of specific certification could be presented/pitched as Language Support, or an immersion classroom.
Another option is to focus on non-western ISs. JP (and SK, CH) all have various ISs that are marketed to JP students (Nihonjin gakko) and families from their respective regions. Your dual training and experience in the MEXT Course of Study (NC curriculum) and western IB methodologies would be very attractive. You may even find an opportunity to move into leadership as a coordinator or AP, etc. for a small IS pursuing IB, especially if you have your advance kyoshoku menkyo.
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Should we do the fair?
I am going to agree and disagree with Psy on just a few things here.
1) Your fluency. I know my father, who learned English in school, has such fluency and a grasp of idioms AND non-verbal communication cues that people are shocked to learn that he is not American. You will have to be the judge of that end of things--while Psy is right that it can be a barrier, you may very well pass as native speakers. Keep it in mind, and use your best judgment.
2) Ichiro--we didn't use it for all vacancies--just schools that had TWO vacancies, one for each of us (so about 1/3 of the schools to which we applied). When only one of us was applying for a vacancy, we used that partner's regular CV. Obviously you use your discretion on when to use each. You sound like you are intelligent enough to make that call!
3) While you are not experienced in secondary, don't discount it. If a school has one opening in primary and one that you could fill in secondary, they may hire you for the secondary because you are a convenient two-fer-one. However, Psy is right that expanding that area of your resume may help. If you CAN spend next year in your current school teaching secondary, it might be worthwhile.
4) I also agree with the idea of increasing specialization, marketing for special populations, etc. to increase your range and thus your desirability. Good advice there.
5) Good advice on the non-Western schools. As a side-note, you can additionally target those schools which are the "western" (think US State Department) schools but have high concentrations of locals due to the fact that the country simply has few expats. Ulaanbaatar comes to mind, and teachers apparently love working there.
6) Get your invite to the fair you want, but maybe hold off on booking flights and hotel for awhile so you can test the waters? Again, you will have to make the best call on that based on your current location, price of tickets, and your perceived marketability.
1) Your fluency. I know my father, who learned English in school, has such fluency and a grasp of idioms AND non-verbal communication cues that people are shocked to learn that he is not American. You will have to be the judge of that end of things--while Psy is right that it can be a barrier, you may very well pass as native speakers. Keep it in mind, and use your best judgment.
2) Ichiro--we didn't use it for all vacancies--just schools that had TWO vacancies, one for each of us (so about 1/3 of the schools to which we applied). When only one of us was applying for a vacancy, we used that partner's regular CV. Obviously you use your discretion on when to use each. You sound like you are intelligent enough to make that call!
3) While you are not experienced in secondary, don't discount it. If a school has one opening in primary and one that you could fill in secondary, they may hire you for the secondary because you are a convenient two-fer-one. However, Psy is right that expanding that area of your resume may help. If you CAN spend next year in your current school teaching secondary, it might be worthwhile.
4) I also agree with the idea of increasing specialization, marketing for special populations, etc. to increase your range and thus your desirability. Good advice there.
5) Good advice on the non-Western schools. As a side-note, you can additionally target those schools which are the "western" (think US State Department) schools but have high concentrations of locals due to the fact that the country simply has few expats. Ulaanbaatar comes to mind, and teachers apparently love working there.
6) Get your invite to the fair you want, but maybe hold off on booking flights and hotel for awhile so you can test the waters? Again, you will have to make the best call on that based on your current location, price of tickets, and your perceived marketability.
Re: Should we do the fair?
Without a doubt do the fair.
My associate wouldn't even give me an invite to the fair ("only for the most qualified candidates... blah blah blah") I wanted to go to, but I got an offer to attend with three weeks to go.
At the fair were three "Tier 1" schools I had all emailed, but none had bothered to respond. At the fair I had interviews with all three, and got two offers.
Face to face still matters
My associate wouldn't even give me an invite to the fair ("only for the most qualified candidates... blah blah blah") I wanted to go to, but I got an offer to attend with three weeks to go.
At the fair were three "Tier 1" schools I had all emailed, but none had bothered to respond. At the fair I had interviews with all three, and got two offers.
Face to face still matters
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flipfuntasia
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:29 am
Re: Should we do the fair?
@Thames: You've done it again! Thanks again for your feedback. I really appreciate your advice. They're very specific and it really helps clarify what we need to do, or what we should do. It might not be possible to make that move to the secondary though, but I have been quite interested to do MYP (though am not sure if the school is open to that because I only have a year left). I will hold off on the bookings unless we are absolutely sure. We are not picky with our destinations so long as the school is a great school to work in and aligns with our teaching philosophies.
@PG: As for the ichiro, I do plan to have it just in case we need them, but still have copies of our individual resumes on hand. I will look into specializations as well. Does being part of the IBEN count? Just throwing it out there. Thanks!
@Gmanrex: Thanks for the info. That will really help us decide to prepare for it.
@PG: As for the ichiro, I do plan to have it just in case we need them, but still have copies of our individual resumes on hand. I will look into specializations as well. Does being part of the IBEN count? Just throwing it out there. Thanks!
@Gmanrex: Thanks for the info. That will really help us decide to prepare for it.
Reply
@Thames Pirate
1) They may pass as native speakers, I doubt it. I would advise they ask some trusted local western expats (ITs, ETs) how their voice sounds. Even then its going to take a minute perusing their resume to determine if they had spent a significant amount of time abroad to develop natural speaking.
2) It would be highly advised to target all ISs with primary and appropriate vacancies. Its not an issue what the student demographic is. The LW isnt competitive for elite tier ISs, but you miss every shot you dont take.
@flipfuntasia
"Great Schools" are essentially elite tier ISs, you arent marketable for those ISs yet.
Being part of the IBEN in what aspect? If you are a consultant or visits member/leader and you had an IS that was adapting IB, yes there would be some utility there. If youre only an examiner, or something as common then no.
1) They may pass as native speakers, I doubt it. I would advise they ask some trusted local western expats (ITs, ETs) how their voice sounds. Even then its going to take a minute perusing their resume to determine if they had spent a significant amount of time abroad to develop natural speaking.
2) It would be highly advised to target all ISs with primary and appropriate vacancies. Its not an issue what the student demographic is. The LW isnt competitive for elite tier ISs, but you miss every shot you dont take.
@flipfuntasia
"Great Schools" are essentially elite tier ISs, you arent marketable for those ISs yet.
Being part of the IBEN in what aspect? If you are a consultant or visits member/leader and you had an IS that was adapting IB, yes there would be some utility there. If youre only an examiner, or something as common then no.
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Should we do the fair?
Psy, just to clarify:
1) We agree--only the OP and people who know her personally can determine how native she sounds. I am not ruling it out given my father's experiences. All I said was to make that determination themselves.
2) I didn't mean target JUST those types of schools, but those are often better stepping stones than schools in China or the ME that have mostly local populations, so it might be a deciding factor. It might also be easier to get a foot in the door, though those schools are often small, so only one partner would likely get a job (unlikely to have multiple openings). Absolutely I agree to target any school you would consider. OP, if you do get your foot in the door that way, the trailing spouse should expand the resume through extracurriculars that are marketable (ModelUN, coaching popular sports like soccer or basketball), pursuing an advanced degree, or anything else the school allows that would fill some of those gaps in your marketability. For the second year of the contract, that partner should try to branch out into secondary, for example.
I am going to push back on the "elite" comment. There are a ton of great schools that aren't elite or even Tier 1 by your standard simply because you base it off of percentages. If there is a better school that is the Tier 1 or elite school, that doesn't mean the tier 2 isn't great--maybe just not as well established. Look at Bangkok. There is ISB, the elite school. There is maybe one other school that is Tier 1 (Patanya), and the next would, by virtue of numbers, be tier 2. Does that mean NIST isn't a great school? Of course it is! So saying that the only great schools are the elite flies in the face of the premise of percentages in the tier system.
That's of course leaving out the whole "great is relative" argument, which one could also make. There are TONS of teachers very happy with their situations and who would call their current schools "great" even if they aren't top tier.
OP, you will find something. Just be smart, persistent, and patient. Good luck!
1) We agree--only the OP and people who know her personally can determine how native she sounds. I am not ruling it out given my father's experiences. All I said was to make that determination themselves.
2) I didn't mean target JUST those types of schools, but those are often better stepping stones than schools in China or the ME that have mostly local populations, so it might be a deciding factor. It might also be easier to get a foot in the door, though those schools are often small, so only one partner would likely get a job (unlikely to have multiple openings). Absolutely I agree to target any school you would consider. OP, if you do get your foot in the door that way, the trailing spouse should expand the resume through extracurriculars that are marketable (ModelUN, coaching popular sports like soccer or basketball), pursuing an advanced degree, or anything else the school allows that would fill some of those gaps in your marketability. For the second year of the contract, that partner should try to branch out into secondary, for example.
I am going to push back on the "elite" comment. There are a ton of great schools that aren't elite or even Tier 1 by your standard simply because you base it off of percentages. If there is a better school that is the Tier 1 or elite school, that doesn't mean the tier 2 isn't great--maybe just not as well established. Look at Bangkok. There is ISB, the elite school. There is maybe one other school that is Tier 1 (Patanya), and the next would, by virtue of numbers, be tier 2. Does that mean NIST isn't a great school? Of course it is! So saying that the only great schools are the elite flies in the face of the premise of percentages in the tier system.
That's of course leaving out the whole "great is relative" argument, which one could also make. There are TONS of teachers very happy with their situations and who would call their current schools "great" even if they aren't top tier.
OP, you will find something. Just be smart, persistent, and patient. Good luck!
Reply
@Thames Pirate
Self assessment is rarely accurate. We are too familiar with our own voices. I know thee is a voice in my head that sings great in the shower and one ona recording that I dont like at all. The LW needs outside assessment by a . or parties that are comfortable enough to be honest and who are native speakers and qualified to provide an accurate assessment.
Yes those are better ISs elite tier ISs in a region are still elite tier and the LW isnt competitive for those ISs. Yes they are highly likely to have a better work experience, thats what elite tier ISs are known for.
Push all you want, no matter how hard the wind blows, the mountain can not yield. There are no great ISs that arent first tier ISs, if they were that great they would be first tier. There are great ISs for ''YOU'' but empirically greatness is a first tier characteristic.
Elite isnt a separate and distinct category but a super category within the first tier. You are confusing great with good. Elite tier ISs are great, 1st tier ISs are good, good isnt bad, but its not great.
Its not an issue of finding "something", there is a job for anyone if you will take anything, its not going to be "great", you can tell yourself its "great" for you.
Self assessment is rarely accurate. We are too familiar with our own voices. I know thee is a voice in my head that sings great in the shower and one ona recording that I dont like at all. The LW needs outside assessment by a . or parties that are comfortable enough to be honest and who are native speakers and qualified to provide an accurate assessment.
Yes those are better ISs elite tier ISs in a region are still elite tier and the LW isnt competitive for those ISs. Yes they are highly likely to have a better work experience, thats what elite tier ISs are known for.
Push all you want, no matter how hard the wind blows, the mountain can not yield. There are no great ISs that arent first tier ISs, if they were that great they would be first tier. There are great ISs for ''YOU'' but empirically greatness is a first tier characteristic.
Elite isnt a separate and distinct category but a super category within the first tier. You are confusing great with good. Elite tier ISs are great, 1st tier ISs are good, good isnt bad, but its not great.
Its not an issue of finding "something", there is a job for anyone if you will take anything, its not going to be "great", you can tell yourself its "great" for you.
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Should we do the fair?
For the accent thing, you are right--it should be a neutral person making the call. My point was mostly that we can't do that on the internet. But it should be a native speaker who can actually speak in person with the OP.
As to elite, seriously, working at NIST or even Patanya is not great? Working at Munich International isn't great but Frankfurt is? Of course it is "great" working at those schools. They are great but not elite because the other is even better or simply more established, not because they aren't great. Again, if only a percentage can be top and even a subset can be elite, there can literally be dozens of great schools--only one will be the elite, not because the others aren't great, but because there can be only one. Unless you are counting 1st tier as something other than a percentage.
As you said, though, great is relative, and for the OP, they will find something that they consider "great," even if it is NIST instead of Patanya or even if it is ForProfitHellholeThatCatersOnlyToWhatTheOPWants IS.
As to elite, seriously, working at NIST or even Patanya is not great? Working at Munich International isn't great but Frankfurt is? Of course it is "great" working at those schools. They are great but not elite because the other is even better or simply more established, not because they aren't great. Again, if only a percentage can be top and even a subset can be elite, there can literally be dozens of great schools--only one will be the elite, not because the others aren't great, but because there can be only one. Unless you are counting 1st tier as something other than a percentage.
As you said, though, great is relative, and for the OP, they will find something that they consider "great," even if it is NIST instead of Patanya or even if it is ForProfitHellholeThatCatersOnlyToWhatTheOPWants IS.
Reply
@Thames Pirate
Yes seriously, whatever terms you want to assign to tiers, whether great or good, or awesome, or fantastic, they are exclusive to that tier. Second tier ISs are not first tier ISs and first tier ISs are not elite tier ISs.
Tiers arent solely subjective and solely relative, tiers have utility because of consensus and agreement. While their is much more disagreement in regards to the margins between tiers, there is little disagreement on what is and isnt membership within tiers. A particular IT may be very well, thrive, and prefer a third tier IS, but it is still a third tier IS. Being a best fit for one IT doesnt shift or move the ISs tier status.
Yes seriously, whatever terms you want to assign to tiers, whether great or good, or awesome, or fantastic, they are exclusive to that tier. Second tier ISs are not first tier ISs and first tier ISs are not elite tier ISs.
Tiers arent solely subjective and solely relative, tiers have utility because of consensus and agreement. While their is much more disagreement in regards to the margins between tiers, there is little disagreement on what is and isnt membership within tiers. A particular IT may be very well, thrive, and prefer a third tier IS, but it is still a third tier IS. Being a best fit for one IT doesnt shift or move the ISs tier status.