Why can't we "just teach"?
Why can't we "just teach"?
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Last edited by stevec311 on Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Why can't we "just teach"?
Interesting questions. I, too, am an American teacher who has been international for three years. I think it totally depends where you end up. The first school I was at, in Kuwait, the parents did want grades changed all the time even for their children who practically did nothing in the classroom. Now I'm at a much better school and I don't see the same problems as in the US. I agree with you that there has been a downward trend in the US with teachers getting blamed for everything and helicopter parents dominating the schools expecting high marks for everything. Personally I have found international teaching to be refreshing for me and I have fortunately gotten away from that. You still find that occasionally, but overall I find the students at my current school to be much more motivated and much more gifted, so to speak, than what I was dealing with in the US. To be honest, I'm not too keen to go back to the US anytime soon. I think if you can find a good school with high academic standards you will feel the same way soon.
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shadowjack
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Re: Why can't we "just teach"?
stevec311,
most of those problems are not present overseas. If you document and get in touch with parents about problems early, kids wise up. Parents are very supportive of teachers who they feel want to help their child succeed. Parents are more involved in international education - although not always in a good way.
Teachers do give failing grades. At some international schools those grades are changed - either the teacher under pressure or the admin after the fact. Don't kid yourself. But at the good international schools, students rarely fail. They are pretty motivated, and even those that aren't generally get swept along by the herd of students who want to be very successful. It is part of the school (and student) culture.
Student IEPs are almost non-existent. If present, they are done by the SEN teacher, not you, but in consultation with you.
Student enabling takes place, but nowhere near the scale of at home. The good schools are into student EMPOWERING, not student enabling. In my courses, when the students ask me for an answer, they get a question in return (inquiry learning, at an IB school).
Not tons of paperwork, except for budget ordering (if you are science, art or DT).
Merit based pay - nope.
I have taught at home, very successfully, and taught overseas, very successfully. We prefer overseas.
just my 2 cents.
shad
most of those problems are not present overseas. If you document and get in touch with parents about problems early, kids wise up. Parents are very supportive of teachers who they feel want to help their child succeed. Parents are more involved in international education - although not always in a good way.
Teachers do give failing grades. At some international schools those grades are changed - either the teacher under pressure or the admin after the fact. Don't kid yourself. But at the good international schools, students rarely fail. They are pretty motivated, and even those that aren't generally get swept along by the herd of students who want to be very successful. It is part of the school (and student) culture.
Student IEPs are almost non-existent. If present, they are done by the SEN teacher, not you, but in consultation with you.
Student enabling takes place, but nowhere near the scale of at home. The good schools are into student EMPOWERING, not student enabling. In my courses, when the students ask me for an answer, they get a question in return (inquiry learning, at an IB school).
Not tons of paperwork, except for budget ordering (if you are science, art or DT).
Merit based pay - nope.
I have taught at home, very successfully, and taught overseas, very successfully. We prefer overseas.
just my 2 cents.
shad
Re: Why can't we "just teach"?
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Last edited by stevec311 on Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Why can't we "just teach"?
I wasn't going to comment. However, I thought I would speak up for public education in the US. I am completing my 16th year in public ed in the south, in a non union state. Reading the list of problems you have noted, I have to say I haven't experienced any of these. While I don't doubt your experiences, I would say the problems you listed are more related to how particular states and their communities view public education. My state definitely has problems in how we fund education, but for the most part our state respects teachers and my community does as well.
As a state, I think the majority of people recognize the issues that students bring to school and the failure of our state to fund each district equitably. We don't have merit based pay and that is not in the works. It has been mentioned a couple of times but there is no support for it.
We still have community schools in my district and the parents are very supportive. Out of the 60 students I teach, I have 2 with severe LD's and they have IEPs that are definitely needed. And as to the grades and grade changing, I have actually never heard of this until I started using this site. I'm not naive enough to think that it doesn't happen, but I've just never heard of it. It really surprises me!
I think we can all agree that public education in the US is operating on a broken system. But, I just don't think it's as bad it sounds in your post. There are a lot of wonderful schools in the US, where teachers and students are still teaching and learning!
As a state, I think the majority of people recognize the issues that students bring to school and the failure of our state to fund each district equitably. We don't have merit based pay and that is not in the works. It has been mentioned a couple of times but there is no support for it.
We still have community schools in my district and the parents are very supportive. Out of the 60 students I teach, I have 2 with severe LD's and they have IEPs that are definitely needed. And as to the grades and grade changing, I have actually never heard of this until I started using this site. I'm not naive enough to think that it doesn't happen, but I've just never heard of it. It really surprises me!
I think we can all agree that public education in the US is operating on a broken system. But, I just don't think it's as bad it sounds in your post. There are a lot of wonderful schools in the US, where teachers and students are still teaching and learning!
Re: Why can't we "just teach"?
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Last edited by stevec311 on Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Why can't we "just teach"?
DeeDee,
I don't think being a union versus nonunion state has anything to do with it. I've taught in both and quite frankly I liked the union state better because things appeared much more equitable. Teachers negotiated contracts instead of just being top down like the nonunion state I was in. I also think that it has definitely gotten worse in the US. There's a funny cartoon going around fb that shows a student in the olden days being chastised by his parents for his low grades at a conference. Then the one of today shows the students in the same manner, but instead blaming the teacher. That is very, very true. Of course there are good schools in the US, but I just don't think they can compare to an international education where students have literally travelled all over the world. Because students at international schools have travelled so much they really do appreciate other cultures. I don't see that in the US. Also, one person's "ideal" school in the US can be a bad deal for someone else. I taught in a very nice upper middle class school in the suburbs. The kids and parents were all well-educated and genuinely wanted what was best for their kids. What I didn't like though was it was total Steppford Wives. The parents had way too much time on their hands and they all thought the same way. They gave lip service to diversity, but it definitely was not something they truly embraced. The school even brought in diversity training and there was such a backlash against it. I only stayed there one year because it was not my idea of a dream school. For me I love having true international students in my class. The experiences and motivation they bring can't even be compared to the US. I'm not saying I dislike American schools. I don't, and eventually I will go back, but not anytime soon.
I don't think being a union versus nonunion state has anything to do with it. I've taught in both and quite frankly I liked the union state better because things appeared much more equitable. Teachers negotiated contracts instead of just being top down like the nonunion state I was in. I also think that it has definitely gotten worse in the US. There's a funny cartoon going around fb that shows a student in the olden days being chastised by his parents for his low grades at a conference. Then the one of today shows the students in the same manner, but instead blaming the teacher. That is very, very true. Of course there are good schools in the US, but I just don't think they can compare to an international education where students have literally travelled all over the world. Because students at international schools have travelled so much they really do appreciate other cultures. I don't see that in the US. Also, one person's "ideal" school in the US can be a bad deal for someone else. I taught in a very nice upper middle class school in the suburbs. The kids and parents were all well-educated and genuinely wanted what was best for their kids. What I didn't like though was it was total Steppford Wives. The parents had way too much time on their hands and they all thought the same way. They gave lip service to diversity, but it definitely was not something they truly embraced. The school even brought in diversity training and there was such a backlash against it. I only stayed there one year because it was not my idea of a dream school. For me I love having true international students in my class. The experiences and motivation they bring can't even be compared to the US. I'm not saying I dislike American schools. I don't, and eventually I will go back, but not anytime soon.
Re: Why can't we "just teach"?
DeeDee,
Furthermore, from what you said about teaching in a state in the south with funding problems makes me think you are from Texas. If that is the case I wouldn't speak to highly about your schools there. I taught for ten years in Texas and I would not call most of them good. The teachers teach to the test and everything is top-down. Definitely not the environment I'd want to be in. If it's a different southern state than with all due respect they are definitely not good. Southern states are notorious for being the worst nationally. If you want top schools in the US you need to look at the Midwest - WI, MN, and Iowa consistently have the top scores on national achievement testing. I don't mean any disrespect, but it's the truth.
Furthermore, from what you said about teaching in a state in the south with funding problems makes me think you are from Texas. If that is the case I wouldn't speak to highly about your schools there. I taught for ten years in Texas and I would not call most of them good. The teachers teach to the test and everything is top-down. Definitely not the environment I'd want to be in. If it's a different southern state than with all due respect they are definitely not good. Southern states are notorious for being the worst nationally. If you want top schools in the US you need to look at the Midwest - WI, MN, and Iowa consistently have the top scores on national achievement testing. I don't mean any disrespect, but it's the truth.
Re: Why can't we "just teach"?
Dawson,
I don't teach in Texas. I teach in Columbia, South Carolina. A large percentage of a school district's budget, in our state, comes from local taxes. Because of the large amount of rural areas, the school districts in these areas are inadequately funded. The districts sued the state but lost a couple of years ago.
Many people have the perception that schools in the South have the worst schools. I don't know. I can only speak about my district- Richland County School District #2. However, it is well known and written about that SC had some of the highest education standards in the US. We also had a high cut off for what we considered passing in our state, on our state tests. Many states have/had watered down standards and low cut offs on state testing. Making it appear that our schools were the worst. Not a fair comparison. We could have lowered the standards and cut offs, but we didn't. However, we have adopted Common Core so we'll see how it pans out. I know you don't mean any disrespect but to state that " Southern states are the worst nationally" is a little rude. Just saying :) Here are some links that prove my points. The last link shows SC in comparison to some of those great midwest states. And, that's all I'm saying on this subject. Because I only posted to say there are still some GREAT schools in the US and some them are in the south! Shocking, but it's the the truth!
http://educationnext.org/few-states-set ... standards/
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2009/1030/p02s07-usgn.html
http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2013/ ... W-QC13-EWH
I don't teach in Texas. I teach in Columbia, South Carolina. A large percentage of a school district's budget, in our state, comes from local taxes. Because of the large amount of rural areas, the school districts in these areas are inadequately funded. The districts sued the state but lost a couple of years ago.
Many people have the perception that schools in the South have the worst schools. I don't know. I can only speak about my district- Richland County School District #2. However, it is well known and written about that SC had some of the highest education standards in the US. We also had a high cut off for what we considered passing in our state, on our state tests. Many states have/had watered down standards and low cut offs on state testing. Making it appear that our schools were the worst. Not a fair comparison. We could have lowered the standards and cut offs, but we didn't. However, we have adopted Common Core so we'll see how it pans out. I know you don't mean any disrespect but to state that " Southern states are the worst nationally" is a little rude. Just saying :) Here are some links that prove my points. The last link shows SC in comparison to some of those great midwest states. And, that's all I'm saying on this subject. Because I only posted to say there are still some GREAT schools in the US and some them are in the south! Shocking, but it's the the truth!
http://educationnext.org/few-states-set ... standards/
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2009/1030/p02s07-usgn.html
http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2013/ ... W-QC13-EWH
Re: Why can't we "just teach"?
DeeDee,
I certainly didn't mean any disrespect and apologize if I was rude. You're right, I'm sure there are lots of good schools in the south and I shouldn't have made such a broad assumption. However, Texas, from my experience, is not one of those good schools. They do exactly like what you stated, they set the passing rate so low on their state exams so it appears that most students are passing, when in reality many of those students are not actually doing that well on the test. It's great that SC doesn't do that and admittedly I don't know anything about them. Another problem is the way the state (TX) and perhaps others track dropout rates. By some strange and vague algorithm they have the dropout rate appear as not that bad when in reality many schools, especially in poor and urban areas come close to having 50% of students not make it to graduation. I guess for me that is what it all boils down to - education in the States is just do darn political and politicians who have no business in education want to make all the decisions. It can be a bit disheartening. However, when all is said and done I probably will eventually move back to the States to teach there again. I think Common Core is a step in the right direction.
I certainly didn't mean any disrespect and apologize if I was rude. You're right, I'm sure there are lots of good schools in the south and I shouldn't have made such a broad assumption. However, Texas, from my experience, is not one of those good schools. They do exactly like what you stated, they set the passing rate so low on their state exams so it appears that most students are passing, when in reality many of those students are not actually doing that well on the test. It's great that SC doesn't do that and admittedly I don't know anything about them. Another problem is the way the state (TX) and perhaps others track dropout rates. By some strange and vague algorithm they have the dropout rate appear as not that bad when in reality many schools, especially in poor and urban areas come close to having 50% of students not make it to graduation. I guess for me that is what it all boils down to - education in the States is just do darn political and politicians who have no business in education want to make all the decisions. It can be a bit disheartening. However, when all is said and done I probably will eventually move back to the States to teach there again. I think Common Core is a step in the right direction.
Re: Why can't we "just teach"?
Interesting article that ranks states based on their ACT/SAT scores. If our standards are truly to teach our students to reach their potential then I would assume this would be a very good indicator of where good schools are located. After all if you attend a school, but can't score very well on a college exam then maybe that really isn't such a good school. The top ten schools are mostly in the Midwest (all the states I mentioned in my previous post). South Carolina is 47th. Ouch!!! So if your standards are so stringent why are students in your state performing so horribly on national tests? It's fine to have high standards, but if you don't have the results to back them up then that's not so good. I'm not trying to be a jerk, this is exactly the information I was referring to in my OP. This is just one site, there's many other and the states mentioned here are usually close to the top in the other reviews.
http://www.deseretnews.com/top/1999/1/I ... cores.html
http://www.deseretnews.com/top/1999/1/I ... cores.html
Re: Why can't we "just teach"?
Dawson,
Interesting link. But, again this is exactly what I'm talking about in regards to public education in the US. States can't be compared because the numbers don't tell the whole story. In SC, in my district, EVERY student is required to take the SAT' whether they plan to go to college or not. Even, the students who are going to the military or technical college. The only students who don't take it are special ed students (those receiving a certificate and not a diploma). Other states only allow those going to college to take the test. Check out the link about those great midwest schools.
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/ ... blogs&_r=1
Look at this link for the ACT. Notice the discrepancy in the # of students who take it. At the bottom of the chart, it notes that some states require all students to take it.
http://www.act.org/newsroom/data/2012/states.html
There's no consistency in state testing either. In my state, the students only have 1 chance to pass. In Florida, Georgia, and North Carolina, the students have multiple chances to pass. If they fail, they can be remediated before the school year ends and some of these states allow up to 3 additional chances for the students to pass the end of the year tests
Again, there are great schools all around the US! The numbers don't always tell the true story.
Interesting link. But, again this is exactly what I'm talking about in regards to public education in the US. States can't be compared because the numbers don't tell the whole story. In SC, in my district, EVERY student is required to take the SAT' whether they plan to go to college or not. Even, the students who are going to the military or technical college. The only students who don't take it are special ed students (those receiving a certificate and not a diploma). Other states only allow those going to college to take the test. Check out the link about those great midwest schools.
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/ ... blogs&_r=1
Look at this link for the ACT. Notice the discrepancy in the # of students who take it. At the bottom of the chart, it notes that some states require all students to take it.
http://www.act.org/newsroom/data/2012/states.html
There's no consistency in state testing either. In my state, the students only have 1 chance to pass. In Florida, Georgia, and North Carolina, the students have multiple chances to pass. If they fail, they can be remediated before the school year ends and some of these states allow up to 3 additional chances for the students to pass the end of the year tests
Again, there are great schools all around the US! The numbers don't always tell the true story.
Re: Why can't we "just teach"?
That's interesting DeeDee. I didn't realize some states require all students to take the SAT even if they are not college bound. I'm curious in why they require that? Is it to motivate some students to pursue higher education who might not have. You're right that would definitely skew the results since the top states, at least according to the data I found, most likely only had the college bound applicants testing, which would naturally result in higher scores. I think the bottom line is that it is tough to nationally rank all schools in the US since there are so many variables and such a variety of curriculum. I think that SC is on the right track by having really high standards. I would want to teach in a state that has high standards versus just "dumbing down the test" so to speak, because that doesn't do anything for anyone. In my opinion, that is what is happening in Texas, and it wasn't good. Not that there weren't good schools there, but from the top down it was tough on teachers. I also agree that there are many great schools in the US. It's kind of like the world of international teaching though where one person's dream school is not so for a different teacher. I think we all have to find our niche and teach in those kind of schools. Personally, I found that I'm not really meant for suburban teaching and when I go back to the US I will look for more urban and diverse schools where they really need good teachers. Again, no offense intended, it's always good to hear from US based teachers on this site because sometimes even those of us from the US lose focus on what it's like there.
Re: Why can't we "just teach"?
I disagree with the - of international schools. There are definitely some that are worse than an 'American' school. But these are typically for profit schools.
However, for profit schools also provide the only opportunity for merit based pay.
My current school lets teachers do as they please if they have already proven themselves, and parents communicate as they find the need. Students are well adjusted and other than the few exceptions, make good use of their time. Unfortunately leadership is weak throughout the school, but the strength of the teaching faculty make the school run the way it should, for the students to learn the SKILLS they need, not just the knowledge. They are strong enough to dump poor teachers after a year. Would this recipe work everywhere? Doubt it...
However, for profit schools also provide the only opportunity for merit based pay.
My current school lets teachers do as they please if they have already proven themselves, and parents communicate as they find the need. Students are well adjusted and other than the few exceptions, make good use of their time. Unfortunately leadership is weak throughout the school, but the strength of the teaching faculty make the school run the way it should, for the students to learn the SKILLS they need, not just the knowledge. They are strong enough to dump poor teachers after a year. Would this recipe work everywhere? Doubt it...
Re: Why can't we "just teach"?
There is nothing that the OP has mentioned in their first post that doesn't happen in many, many international schools. However, there are just as many great schools without those concerns. After all, we are talking about thousands of schools across the world in many varying cultures, exhibiting highly differing levels of quality.
If you were to generalise, you might say that for profit schools are likely to be more likely to exhibit symptoms, but then there are some good for profit schools as well. I think, if I was to look for the most common factor then I would look toward the position the schools takes toward the parents. If a parent came in and complained, would the school investigate the matter transparently and do what it saw correct, or would it instead be looking for the first opportunity to appease the parent? Are they, after all, a paying customer and therefore should be kept sweet? It doesn't take much to realise how that could lead them to pressurise the teacher so as to leave the parent happy, and still paying each month...
A new for-profit school can also have all these, but there's no hard and fast rule.
A good international school supports its teachers, does not interfere in grading unless in exceptional circumstances and realises that it is best to concentrate on getting right just a few new initiatives each year, rather than introducing too much all at once and having them all turn out unsatisfactory.
If you were to generalise, you might say that for profit schools are likely to be more likely to exhibit symptoms, but then there are some good for profit schools as well. I think, if I was to look for the most common factor then I would look toward the position the schools takes toward the parents. If a parent came in and complained, would the school investigate the matter transparently and do what it saw correct, or would it instead be looking for the first opportunity to appease the parent? Are they, after all, a paying customer and therefore should be kept sweet? It doesn't take much to realise how that could lead them to pressurise the teacher so as to leave the parent happy, and still paying each month...
A new for-profit school can also have all these, but there's no hard and fast rule.
A good international school supports its teachers, does not interfere in grading unless in exceptional circumstances and realises that it is best to concentrate on getting right just a few new initiatives each year, rather than introducing too much all at once and having them all turn out unsatisfactory.