Savings in Europe
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Savings in Europe
100,000 in Zurich vs. 75,000 in Berlin or The Hague? For savings I would probably take the latter. But in Munich or Paris? I would take the former (generally speaking--lifestyle, number of incomes, benefits, etc. also play a role).
Reply
@Thames Pirate
You just TPFd those numbers. Looking at Numbeo, Zurich vs. the cities you mentioned have cost of living (COL) differences of:
Berlin: 48% lower COL
Munich: 43% lower COL
Paris: 33% lower COL
The Hague: 40% lower COL
Yes, Zurich is more expensive to live in than all of them (and thats Zurich, one of the most expensive cities to live in globally) but what your ignoring is the salary differential as well which again compared to Zurich for those cities is:
Berlin has a 62% lower salary
Munich has a 51% lower salary
Paris has a 60% lower salary
The Hague has a 59% lower salary
In every one of those examples the lower salary differential is more than the COL differential. Yes it costs more to live in Zurich compared to those cities but the cost is less than the difference in improved salary in those locations.
So instead of TPFd salaries a 100K salary in Zurich is more like a salary of:
Berlin 38K
Munich 49K
Paris 40K
The Hague 41K
So to use a 75K salary in those cities is closer to a salary in the 6 digits thats closer to starting with a 2 rather than a 1 and over 150K rather than 100K.
You just TPFd those numbers. Looking at Numbeo, Zurich vs. the cities you mentioned have cost of living (COL) differences of:
Berlin: 48% lower COL
Munich: 43% lower COL
Paris: 33% lower COL
The Hague: 40% lower COL
Yes, Zurich is more expensive to live in than all of them (and thats Zurich, one of the most expensive cities to live in globally) but what your ignoring is the salary differential as well which again compared to Zurich for those cities is:
Berlin has a 62% lower salary
Munich has a 51% lower salary
Paris has a 60% lower salary
The Hague has a 59% lower salary
In every one of those examples the lower salary differential is more than the COL differential. Yes it costs more to live in Zurich compared to those cities but the cost is less than the difference in improved salary in those locations.
So instead of TPFd salaries a 100K salary in Zurich is more like a salary of:
Berlin 38K
Munich 49K
Paris 40K
The Hague 41K
So to use a 75K salary in those cities is closer to a salary in the 6 digits thats closer to starting with a 2 rather than a 1 and over 150K rather than 100K.
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Heliotrope
- Posts: 1167
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: Savings in Europe
I don't have the time to compare all cities, but I have done research on both Zurich and The Hague not too long ago.
Looking at the top paying schools in both cities, after taxes, income in The Hague is around 70% of what it is in Zürich (salary steps in The Hague are bigger though, so the difference will become smaller once you stay longer).
Cost of living in The Hague however is 59% of what it is in Zürich.
You have to factor in lifestyle and family size before it's obvious where you will save more.
Looking at the top paying schools in both cities, after taxes, income in The Hague is around 70% of what it is in Zürich (salary steps in The Hague are bigger though, so the difference will become smaller once you stay longer).
Cost of living in The Hague however is 59% of what it is in Zürich.
You have to factor in lifestyle and family size before it's obvious where you will save more.
Reply
@Heliotrope
We disagree. Looking at top paying ISs in both countries (since the issue as I described is Switzerland not Zurich). You can save more in Switzerland than the Hague. Looking clearly at the data provided the savings are better in Zurich than The Hague.
We disagree. Looking at top paying ISs in both countries (since the issue as I described is Switzerland not Zurich). You can save more in Switzerland than the Hague. Looking clearly at the data provided the savings are better in Zurich than The Hague.
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Heliotrope
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- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: Reply
YOU brought up Zürich and The Hague first, I didn't.
And at the top paying schools in those two cities, income in The Hague is around 70% of what it is in Zürich , but cost of living in The Hague however is only 59% of what it is in Zürich (Numbeo).
You have to factor in lifestyle and family size before it's obvious where you will save more.
And at the top paying schools in those two cities, income in The Hague is around 70% of what it is in Zürich , but cost of living in The Hague however is only 59% of what it is in Zürich (Numbeo).
You have to factor in lifestyle and family size before it's obvious where you will save more.
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Heliotrope
- Posts: 1167
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: Reply
You're right, she did.
And you don't disagree with me, but with Numbeo (although I do admit Numbeo is quite often off by a bit).
And you don't disagree with me, but with Numbeo (although I do admit Numbeo is quite often off by a bit).
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Heliotrope
- Posts: 1167
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: Reply
If you go to Numbeo, and compare Zurich with The Hague, the first thing you read is:
"You would need around € 6609 in Zurich to maintain the same standard of life that you can have with € 3900 in The Hague (assuming you rent in both cities).
So cost of living in The Hague however is only around 59% of what it is in Zürich.
So with the income in The Hague being around 70% of what it is in Zürich at the best paying ISs in both cities, I wouldn't say Zürich automatically has a better savings potential. It depends on your lifestyle, and on your family size. A teacher couple without kids would perhaps do better in Zürich, an IT with kids and a trailing spouse might do better in The Hague.
"You would need around € 6609 in Zurich to maintain the same standard of life that you can have with € 3900 in The Hague (assuming you rent in both cities).
So cost of living in The Hague however is only around 59% of what it is in Zürich.
So with the income in The Hague being around 70% of what it is in Zürich at the best paying ISs in both cities, I wouldn't say Zürich automatically has a better savings potential. It depends on your lifestyle, and on your family size. A teacher couple without kids would perhaps do better in Zürich, an IT with kids and a trailing spouse might do better in The Hague.
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Illiane_Blues
Re: Savings in Europe
If you look at reviews for Swiss schools you see a lot of low scores for "Cost of living in relation to salary".
Same scores for The Netherlands me thinks.
But I know people in both countries who save well enough. Not great, but decent.
Same scores for The Netherlands me thinks.
But I know people in both countries who save well enough. Not great, but decent.
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Heliotrope
- Posts: 1167
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: Savings in Europe
@Illiane_Blues
Since I had some time to kill, I averaged all scores given for 'Cost of living in relation to salary' in reviews for ISs in both Switzerland and The Netherlands.
I didn't expect the averages to be hugely different, but it turned out they are exactly the same for both countries: 5.2
Of course it's hardly scientific evidence that the savings potential is the same in both, but it's interesting to see ITs aren't very happy in either country, although you can't discount the effect disgruntled teachers (as well as fake admin-written reviews) have on these scores.
Since I had some time to kill, I averaged all scores given for 'Cost of living in relation to salary' in reviews for ISs in both Switzerland and The Netherlands.
I didn't expect the averages to be hugely different, but it turned out they are exactly the same for both countries: 5.2
Of course it's hardly scientific evidence that the savings potential is the same in both, but it's interesting to see ITs aren't very happy in either country, although you can't discount the effect disgruntled teachers (as well as fake admin-written reviews) have on these scores.
Reply
@Heliotrope
If you go to the end of that paragraph it states the cost of living difference directly "Consumer Prices in The Hague (Den Haag) are 41.36% lower than in Zurich". Then at the bottom of the page it states "Average Monthly Net Salary (After Tax) 6,107.82 Fr.(5,529.31 €) 2,533.80 Fr.(2,293.81 €) -58.52 %"
I disagree with your salary for The Hague, not Numbeo, Im agreeing with Numbeo.
If you go to the end of that paragraph it states the cost of living difference directly "Consumer Prices in The Hague (Den Haag) are 41.36% lower than in Zurich". Then at the bottom of the page it states "Average Monthly Net Salary (After Tax) 6,107.82 Fr.(5,529.31 €) 2,533.80 Fr.(2,293.81 €) -58.52 %"
I disagree with your salary for The Hague, not Numbeo, Im agreeing with Numbeo.
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Heliotrope
- Posts: 1167
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: Reply
PsyGuy wrote:
> If you go to the end of that paragraph it states the cost of living
> difference directly "Consumer Prices in The Hague (Den Haag) are
> 41.36% lower than in Zurich".
That's what I said ("So cost of living in The Hague however is only around 59% of what it is in Zürich")
Then at the bottom of the page it states
> "Average Monthly Net Salary (After Tax) 6,107.82 Fr.(5,529.31
> €) 2,533.80 Fr.(2,293.81 €) -58.52 %"
Note the word 'average'. Shocker: the average expat salary is higher than the average IT salary (even though lots of ITs don't seem to accept that and still try to live the same lifestyle as other expats), but ITs salaries aren't always a fixed percentage of the average expat salary. I've lived in cities where ITs made about the same as the average expat in the same city, and I've lived in cities where the average expat made about double.
When it comes to consumer prices, the ITs expenses are more easily compared between cities, as prices at supermarkets, bars, etc. will be the same for both groups (average expats & ITs).
Interesting to note btw, is that Numbeo sets the average rent per month for a 3 bedroom apartment in The Hague, outside of centre (so where the ISs are) at € 1243 (and starting as low as € 800). Even in the centre they are a lot cheaper than € 1900.
> If you go to the end of that paragraph it states the cost of living
> difference directly "Consumer Prices in The Hague (Den Haag) are
> 41.36% lower than in Zurich".
That's what I said ("So cost of living in The Hague however is only around 59% of what it is in Zürich")
Then at the bottom of the page it states
> "Average Monthly Net Salary (After Tax) 6,107.82 Fr.(5,529.31
> €) 2,533.80 Fr.(2,293.81 €) -58.52 %"
Note the word 'average'. Shocker: the average expat salary is higher than the average IT salary (even though lots of ITs don't seem to accept that and still try to live the same lifestyle as other expats), but ITs salaries aren't always a fixed percentage of the average expat salary. I've lived in cities where ITs made about the same as the average expat in the same city, and I've lived in cities where the average expat made about double.
When it comes to consumer prices, the ITs expenses are more easily compared between cities, as prices at supermarkets, bars, etc. will be the same for both groups (average expats & ITs).
Interesting to note btw, is that Numbeo sets the average rent per month for a 3 bedroom apartment in The Hague, outside of centre (so where the ISs are) at € 1243 (and starting as low as € 800). Even in the centre they are a lot cheaper than € 1900.