Ok so this past fall my dh and I finally decided we were going to go abroad for the foreseeable future. We were interested in only 1 school in SE Asia and it got down to the end and they had to choose a couple over him. We knew this would be a possibility and so were not too upset. They loved him and we knew it was a financial issue.
He also spoke to a european school who had already hired one person and had a couple for the other opening. The director was quite interested, but again, we knew it was a issue of business sense.
Now we are researching and preparing for this coming year and want to employ the best strategies for placement. Here's the thing, we have 4 kids. I'm not able to teach until the 2015-2016 school year when the baby is 2. I'm going to start the Teach Ready program in January and be able to teach in the PYP program. My degree is in English, but I'm also in my 5th year of homeschooling my 3 other children and am adding continuing ed in Math to my CV.
My dh has almost 17 years at the college level and holds an MFA (creative writing) and PhD in English. He has lots of admin and technology/online learning experience as well as traditional classroom. He is publishing, etc. We are just not interested in the mess Higher Ed has become. We want our children to be bilingual and travel and experience other cultures. We are in the process of downsizing and selling (house/cars) quite a lot and storing some things.
He has only been in touch with a few schools and had a good bit of interest, etc. We have one interested in early hire. It's in Europe, but not in the Germany, which is where we would like a long-term placement since my husband is almost fluent and would like to become fully bilingual. We hope by the time I have my credential that we will look like a good fit despite all of our dependents.
Would we have better luck with an ME school? Until I read this board, saving money wasn't the goal, but now I think it might be a potential fit and dh can get the IB experience while I'm working toward the credentials. They also may not be as against our many children?
What would your plan of action be? Do we even stand a chance at a decent placement?
Best Strategy?
Reply
Its not going to happen. This is going to come off as very mean.
1) You have 4 kids, Im sorry you have 4 kids. Thats 6 travelers to fill one classroom. You are a logistic nightmare, and just far too expensive.
2) Your husband is a professor, it doesnt matter how many years of experience, etc he has lecturing. Many schools for accreditation purposes alone would consider him an unqualified teacher. You need a teaching certification/license. Lecturing is not teaching. The differences between a DIP2/12 grade student and a college freshman are minor, but drop down early MYP levels and you just cant treat children as younger college students. There are many factors of development involved, and admins know this. Professors are researchers who teach, and there good at that. Teachers teach children, and experience in one does not translate to experience in the other. ISs dont care about publishing. Literature isnt a very high demand subject area,a nd your an expensive hire.
3) Your tourist teachers. Schools and admins know this, they know your their for the short term to live the culture and travel. The experience is primary to you not the teaching. Why should a school pay for such an expensive hire, so that you can travel?
4) Your not marketable. Your getting a certification in primary with no experience. I dont know how your going to make Teach Ready work, you need to do a year of field work and their are so many primary teachers that majored in education getting out of university who cant get jobs. Teaching primary isnt PYP, but PYP is also primary, but unless you have a placement already I cant see ANY IB school giving an ACP teacher a PYP classroom.
Even assuming all that happens and you get your certification and a year of PYP thats going to put you at the bottom of the primary/elementary pile. If you were single its one thing but you have an uncertified spouse and 4 kids. Why pay that much money for an entry level teacher?
Home schooling doesnt count.
5) You cant go to Germany or Europe for that matter. You cant afford it. Taxes in Europe are on average 40%, and they dont generally provide housing allowances. Youd spend a whole salary easy on just rent. Your kids tuition waivers are taxed compensation. So each one of those waivers is about a whole months salary in tax alone.
6) Whos going to watch the 2 year old, if both of you are working? Thats a concern for a school, they know that with 4 kids one of you is going to have to take care of family issues which are going to place stresses on one of you which will effect your performance in the classroom. Thats just a headache waiting to happen.
This wouldn't be a little different if husband was certified had 10 years experience in an IB school teaching literature, had great scores and also cross certified in something like humanities or theater. You had 5+ years in a PYP classroom maybe coordinator responsibilities. Even then youd have this huge glaring issue in that you have 4 kids. You still couldnt afford Europe, and your still looking at a 3:1 (three travelers:employee) hiring ratio, which is still expensive for an english teacher and primary teacher.
Thats not going to change in the ME. Your one unqualified English teacher and one barely entry level primary teacher with 4 kids. A school in the ME can hire MUCH cheaper unqualified teachers, or entry level teachers.
Some options that are feasible:
Look into DoDDS, QSI, Aramco, they dont care about housing, but your not going to get into WE (Italy).
You need to expand your job search, you really need to consider anywhere and everywhere. If your only set on WE, your going to grow increasingly frustrated year after year. Your really under qualified and not in a position to be selective.
You need to sell to husbands strengths which means he needs to look at foreign universities, maybe even an exchange program with his current university. Once he finds a university then you can start looking at various local and international schools.
1) You have 4 kids, Im sorry you have 4 kids. Thats 6 travelers to fill one classroom. You are a logistic nightmare, and just far too expensive.
2) Your husband is a professor, it doesnt matter how many years of experience, etc he has lecturing. Many schools for accreditation purposes alone would consider him an unqualified teacher. You need a teaching certification/license. Lecturing is not teaching. The differences between a DIP2/12 grade student and a college freshman are minor, but drop down early MYP levels and you just cant treat children as younger college students. There are many factors of development involved, and admins know this. Professors are researchers who teach, and there good at that. Teachers teach children, and experience in one does not translate to experience in the other. ISs dont care about publishing. Literature isnt a very high demand subject area,a nd your an expensive hire.
3) Your tourist teachers. Schools and admins know this, they know your their for the short term to live the culture and travel. The experience is primary to you not the teaching. Why should a school pay for such an expensive hire, so that you can travel?
4) Your not marketable. Your getting a certification in primary with no experience. I dont know how your going to make Teach Ready work, you need to do a year of field work and their are so many primary teachers that majored in education getting out of university who cant get jobs. Teaching primary isnt PYP, but PYP is also primary, but unless you have a placement already I cant see ANY IB school giving an ACP teacher a PYP classroom.
Even assuming all that happens and you get your certification and a year of PYP thats going to put you at the bottom of the primary/elementary pile. If you were single its one thing but you have an uncertified spouse and 4 kids. Why pay that much money for an entry level teacher?
Home schooling doesnt count.
5) You cant go to Germany or Europe for that matter. You cant afford it. Taxes in Europe are on average 40%, and they dont generally provide housing allowances. Youd spend a whole salary easy on just rent. Your kids tuition waivers are taxed compensation. So each one of those waivers is about a whole months salary in tax alone.
6) Whos going to watch the 2 year old, if both of you are working? Thats a concern for a school, they know that with 4 kids one of you is going to have to take care of family issues which are going to place stresses on one of you which will effect your performance in the classroom. Thats just a headache waiting to happen.
This wouldn't be a little different if husband was certified had 10 years experience in an IB school teaching literature, had great scores and also cross certified in something like humanities or theater. You had 5+ years in a PYP classroom maybe coordinator responsibilities. Even then youd have this huge glaring issue in that you have 4 kids. You still couldnt afford Europe, and your still looking at a 3:1 (three travelers:employee) hiring ratio, which is still expensive for an english teacher and primary teacher.
Thats not going to change in the ME. Your one unqualified English teacher and one barely entry level primary teacher with 4 kids. A school in the ME can hire MUCH cheaper unqualified teachers, or entry level teachers.
Some options that are feasible:
Look into DoDDS, QSI, Aramco, they dont care about housing, but your not going to get into WE (Italy).
You need to expand your job search, you really need to consider anywhere and everywhere. If your only set on WE, your going to grow increasingly frustrated year after year. Your really under qualified and not in a position to be selective.
You need to sell to husbands strengths which means he needs to look at foreign universities, maybe even an exchange program with his current university. Once he finds a university then you can start looking at various local and international schools.
Thanks for your info. I've spent LOTS of time researching, that's what I do, here and elsewhere and I'll clear up a few assumptions for you.
It can happen. My husband contacted/applied to 5 schools. He was a finalist for one that paid well and provided housing etc. to the kids. If I had been able to teach right away we would have been the choice, they flat out told us. He's interviewing for another school in the next week. He was considered for another, no one mentioned certification. Also I don't think children are a death sentence like you say, yes more difficult, but not impossible. We are also prepared to pay for a child's education or flight if necessary.
We are in this for a longer period than you think, 5 yrs. minimum and maybe longer. And he is a TEACHER. Not all professors are just researchers. He loves to teach. He has taught younger high schoolers, ESL, has curriculum development experience, etc. Yes, he also completed a dissertation and has published, and also gets paid to write. He plans to go through the Missouri program and get certification through testing.
I bring 50k of online work with us. So yes, I am marketable and yes, we can live in WE. I don't have to teach, but would like to make that happen for future placements. I can get experience through substituting. My background is development and marketing some admin work is a possibility as well. We are open to lots of schools and are thinking about some ME universities, but to be honest I'm not going to the ME without an awesome package that allows us to save a good bit of cash.
Thanks for your opinion, I knew you would be the first to weigh in and what your responses would be so I'm not surprised or deterred. I would
appreciate someone who has done this with children to give us some tips as well:)
It can happen. My husband contacted/applied to 5 schools. He was a finalist for one that paid well and provided housing etc. to the kids. If I had been able to teach right away we would have been the choice, they flat out told us. He's interviewing for another school in the next week. He was considered for another, no one mentioned certification. Also I don't think children are a death sentence like you say, yes more difficult, but not impossible. We are also prepared to pay for a child's education or flight if necessary.
We are in this for a longer period than you think, 5 yrs. minimum and maybe longer. And he is a TEACHER. Not all professors are just researchers. He loves to teach. He has taught younger high schoolers, ESL, has curriculum development experience, etc. Yes, he also completed a dissertation and has published, and also gets paid to write. He plans to go through the Missouri program and get certification through testing.
I bring 50k of online work with us. So yes, I am marketable and yes, we can live in WE. I don't have to teach, but would like to make that happen for future placements. I can get experience through substituting. My background is development and marketing some admin work is a possibility as well. We are open to lots of schools and are thinking about some ME universities, but to be honest I'm not going to the ME without an awesome package that allows us to save a good bit of cash.
Thanks for your opinion, I knew you would be the first to weigh in and what your responses would be so I'm not surprised or deterred. I would
appreciate someone who has done this with children to give us some tips as well:)
Comment
Your husband was a finalist for nothing, the only thing that matters is an offer. Being the first runner up is being the first loser. Admins are really good at letting people down. That's all fluff and fru-fru, contracts are the only thing that matters.
Teaching is a regulated profession. Being a teacher means being certified by a governmental authority to instruct children in K-12. That's what accrediting agencies define it as and that's what matters. Otherwise your argument is the same one that every ESL teacher makes hundreds of times a year.
Yes that many children is a job killer. Your looking a the attention your getting now and you see it as hopeful, but in the next year when your always the "next runner up" your going to be very tired of it and its going to grow frustrating to you.
If your so marketable why was it an issue you weren't certified? They would be so happy to put your uncertified husband in a classroom, whys it such a stretch they wouldn't do the same with you?
It would be wise to obtain certification for your husband as quickly as possible, given he has an exam route available to him.
5 years isn't really a career, but long enough for most ISs, the way you presented yourself in your opening post, getting the kids some culture and traveling is tourist teacher speak.
Your not marketable as a teacher, marketing and management experience isnt going to let you walk into a classroom or administration experience. Work experience outside education doesn't count, and your 50K income is going to get eaten up by taxes as well. Even with both incomes, as I included in my previous post, teaching or otherwise you couldn't afford to live in WE with 4 kids.
Substituting experience doesn't count either, except in very narrow scenarios with long term subs who have their own classroom.
Your situation is like a lot of stories I hear from mid career couples who want to see the world and travel, and think that teaching at an IS is like hopping on a plane and teaching ESL. A lot of teachers think they are going to walk into a European school or a top tier school because they think they are special, and their americans, that doesnt happen too often, and in the cases when it does there is almost always a previous relationship between ownership and the teachers.
None of that applies though because the logistics of your family are going to be a consistent deal breaker.
Teaching is a regulated profession. Being a teacher means being certified by a governmental authority to instruct children in K-12. That's what accrediting agencies define it as and that's what matters. Otherwise your argument is the same one that every ESL teacher makes hundreds of times a year.
Yes that many children is a job killer. Your looking a the attention your getting now and you see it as hopeful, but in the next year when your always the "next runner up" your going to be very tired of it and its going to grow frustrating to you.
If your so marketable why was it an issue you weren't certified? They would be so happy to put your uncertified husband in a classroom, whys it such a stretch they wouldn't do the same with you?
It would be wise to obtain certification for your husband as quickly as possible, given he has an exam route available to him.
5 years isn't really a career, but long enough for most ISs, the way you presented yourself in your opening post, getting the kids some culture and traveling is tourist teacher speak.
Your not marketable as a teacher, marketing and management experience isnt going to let you walk into a classroom or administration experience. Work experience outside education doesn't count, and your 50K income is going to get eaten up by taxes as well. Even with both incomes, as I included in my previous post, teaching or otherwise you couldn't afford to live in WE with 4 kids.
Substituting experience doesn't count either, except in very narrow scenarios with long term subs who have their own classroom.
Your situation is like a lot of stories I hear from mid career couples who want to see the world and travel, and think that teaching at an IS is like hopping on a plane and teaching ESL. A lot of teachers think they are going to walk into a European school or a top tier school because they think they are special, and their americans, that doesnt happen too often, and in the cases when it does there is almost always a previous relationship between ownership and the teachers.
None of that applies though because the logistics of your family are going to be a consistent deal breaker.
Last edited by PsyGuy on Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thanks oldmanChan! Yes, my husband is going to get certified through the exam route before hiring season. We'll see what happens.
Psyguy-I'm not sure why you insist that we can't live in WE. We have friends in WE living on 50-60 euros and not having a hard time. I've researched enough to know our family would be fine on 3,000 euros a month. I think we just have different perspectives. Also we have always wanted to live abroad for an extended period with our children, possibly graduating at least one, so no we aren't just interested in being tourists:)
My point is if my husband were so unqualified he wouldn't be getting interviews AT ALL.
Psyguy-I'm not sure why you insist that we can't live in WE. We have friends in WE living on 50-60 euros and not having a hard time. I've researched enough to know our family would be fine on 3,000 euros a month. I think we just have different perspectives. Also we have always wanted to live abroad for an extended period with our children, possibly graduating at least one, so no we aren't just interested in being tourists:)
My point is if my husband were so unqualified he wouldn't be getting interviews AT ALL.
Reply
There is something faulty with your research, your probably being overly optimistic on costs.
Your husbands salary on average is going to be around 3000€ a month. 40% of that goes away in taxes (based on combined income tax 15%, solidarity tax 5%, and pension contributions 20%). That leaves 1800€ a month left over. Your kids tuition waivers are also taxed as income. The average waiver is valued at 10K€ and you'll be taxed at about 20% (the tax will accue and be assessed at the end of the year when you've already moved into the higher tax bracket. So each one of those waivers is 2K€ in taxes which after tax is a months salary alone.
Now lets consider housing, for a 5 bedroom house in say Frankfurt its going to cost you around 2500€ for something basic, that's more then another months salary after taxes. We haven't even discussed utility, food, transportation, entertainment, sundries and all the other costs associated with living.
It strongly depends on when the conversation about how many kids he has and his trailing spouse comes up. I've mea. Couple of teachers at fairs who had the same experience. Sign up went really well for them, they got interviews, and after the teaching related questions their family comes up and you could see the loss of interest to learn that they have 4/5 dependents traveling with them. Then they hear the dreaded rejection/non rejection of "were waiting" and what their waiting for is the inevitable someone cheaper.
Interviews don't count, only offers matter.
Your husbands salary on average is going to be around 3000€ a month. 40% of that goes away in taxes (based on combined income tax 15%, solidarity tax 5%, and pension contributions 20%). That leaves 1800€ a month left over. Your kids tuition waivers are also taxed as income. The average waiver is valued at 10K€ and you'll be taxed at about 20% (the tax will accue and be assessed at the end of the year when you've already moved into the higher tax bracket. So each one of those waivers is 2K€ in taxes which after tax is a months salary alone.
Now lets consider housing, for a 5 bedroom house in say Frankfurt its going to cost you around 2500€ for something basic, that's more then another months salary after taxes. We haven't even discussed utility, food, transportation, entertainment, sundries and all the other costs associated with living.
It strongly depends on when the conversation about how many kids he has and his trailing spouse comes up. I've mea. Couple of teachers at fairs who had the same experience. Sign up went really well for them, they got interviews, and after the teaching related questions their family comes up and you could see the loss of interest to learn that they have 4/5 dependents traveling with them. Then they hear the dreaded rejection/non rejection of "were waiting" and what their waiting for is the inevitable someone cheaper.
Interviews don't count, only offers matter.
Obviously you aren't aware of how most families live:) We would not be renting a FIVE bedroom house. I've already found furnished housing for 1500 euros in the city where my husband has an interview. I found unfurnished housing in Germany for euro 900-1100 a month. Theses are all 3 bedroom homes. We would not use/own a car. We have done city comparisons and I know the average utilities run similar to our own american city, food does as well. My income would not be eaten up by taxes and with 4 children we'd get quite a bit returned to us vis credits. Living anywhere can be expensive if you seek to fulfill certain desires.
Anyway, not interested in further discussion with you, respectfully. I know your opinion on my situation so thanks, I'll wait to get any feedback elsewhere.
Anyway, not interested in further discussion with you, respectfully. I know your opinion on my situation so thanks, I'll wait to get any feedback elsewhere.
I would not employ you with 4 kids, it is just too expensive, some of the lower tier Asian schools may look at 4 more white faces in the classrooms as a bonus as they feel that it looks good. even better if they are blonde.
Your dh teaches English which is posibly the easiest subjuct to fill (PE is i close second.
Many experienced teachers would be wary of employing somebody who has been homeschooling. Homeschoolers tend to be very self opinionated about education and are very poor team players.
I would advise that you both get properly qualified in school teaching in your own country and then start applying in a few years.
Your dh teaches English which is posibly the easiest subjuct to fill (PE is i close second.
Many experienced teachers would be wary of employing somebody who has been homeschooling. Homeschoolers tend to be very self opinionated about education and are very poor team players.
I would advise that you both get properly qualified in school teaching in your own country and then start applying in a few years.
I'll go ahead and echo what others have already said - you have no chance. The school you mentioned might have told you that you were a finalist, but they were most likely lying to you or just being nice. With four kids, you are just too expensive to hire, especially without certification. My advice is to get certified (both of you) and apply in a few years. But even then, you will be looking at lower tier schools because you have four kids. You're better off staying where you are.
Maybe I'm just daft, but besides flights, which I know some will just say "we can only provide 2" and that's not a problem for us, I don't get the huge expense. In actuality only 3 tuitions are needed and from my understanding you just pay a discount. We would be given 3 bedrooms with 3 kids anyway. And once I get my licensure we are a teaching couple. My dh will have his licensure for this hiring season.
I'm not sure I want to be in a school that's anti-family oriented anyway. We are not looking at making money in this but to raise our children abroad. I wonder if our priorities are just different from a lot of you in IT. I can't believe a director would only be interested in only single people who will be up and leaving in a few years. Maybe my assumptions about the quality of international schools is incorrect if there is such turnover and anti-family sentiments.
And why on earth when the application asks how many children you have would a school even waste time interviewing?
I'm not sure I want to be in a school that's anti-family oriented anyway. We are not looking at making money in this but to raise our children abroad. I wonder if our priorities are just different from a lot of you in IT. I can't believe a director would only be interested in only single people who will be up and leaving in a few years. Maybe my assumptions about the quality of international schools is incorrect if there is such turnover and anti-family sentiments.
And why on earth when the application asks how many children you have would a school even waste time interviewing?
Besides flights, your children are taking up free spaces in the classroom that the school could otherwise charge for. Many schools limit the number of spots they have for each year group, and if your kids are not paying tuition, then the school has to eat that loss. There are also visa expenses which the school normally pays for, along with bigger housing (which you mention) that has to be provided.
Schools are not usually anti-family, but if you are not a highly experienced (and I mean IB experienced) teaching couple, then the better schools are not going to hire you. All schools need to make a profit (even the non-profit ones) and without many years of IB experience (6+) you are too expensive a hire.
Schools are not usually anti-family, but if you are not a highly experienced (and I mean IB experienced) teaching couple, then the better schools are not going to hire you. All schools need to make a profit (even the non-profit ones) and without many years of IB experience (6+) you are too expensive a hire.
Twin,
Thank You!
Thank you for your thoughtful response. Much of what you said my husband and I intuited (about the board). As far as WE goes, I don't think we're too expensive either and I apologize for insinuating all ISS or IT's are anti-family; It just seemed like quite a bit of child prejudice around here.
Yes, big benefit packages are not going to be our fate. Now, I guess I just assume ANY employer has to deal with potential problems when they hire someone. I will likely not be teaching for quite a while and maybe never if online work is steady. I was originally a secondary english ed major until I saw the quality of the other students and no offense, but some of the most ridiculous "education" course work required. These students were struggling in their "major" courses and complaining they didn't need to understand literary criticism theory. I was quite turned off by it all.
Yes, I know homeschooling "doesn't count."
Which is why I will likely not teach, but continue with other avenues of making money at home, leaving me free to take care of my kids. In 10 years I'm not sure he's missed work because one of us was sick!
We are contemplating a Christian school so pay is low, but since I bring income to the table, it should work out. It is a good fit for our family and maybe in 3 or 4 years we can look at better paying schools.
He is also still looking at universities abroad, but then we run into the problem of affording an ISS education! We are leaving up to God and will see what happens. Again thank you for your response:)
Thank You!
Thank you for your thoughtful response. Much of what you said my husband and I intuited (about the board). As far as WE goes, I don't think we're too expensive either and I apologize for insinuating all ISS or IT's are anti-family; It just seemed like quite a bit of child prejudice around here.
Yes, big benefit packages are not going to be our fate. Now, I guess I just assume ANY employer has to deal with potential problems when they hire someone. I will likely not be teaching for quite a while and maybe never if online work is steady. I was originally a secondary english ed major until I saw the quality of the other students and no offense, but some of the most ridiculous "education" course work required. These students were struggling in their "major" courses and complaining they didn't need to understand literary criticism theory. I was quite turned off by it all.
Yes, I know homeschooling "doesn't count."
Which is why I will likely not teach, but continue with other avenues of making money at home, leaving me free to take care of my kids. In 10 years I'm not sure he's missed work because one of us was sick!
We are contemplating a Christian school so pay is low, but since I bring income to the table, it should work out. It is a good fit for our family and maybe in 3 or 4 years we can look at better paying schools.
He is also still looking at universities abroad, but then we run into the problem of affording an ISS education! We are leaving up to God and will see what happens. Again thank you for your response:)