So I'd like to get a discusion going on the topic of pay. More specifically how married to the pay scale a school is. How often does teachers get a bigger offer, or more specifically how often do teachers reject a school's pay scale offer only to have the school counter with a higher offer because they really want that teacher to come work for them?
I would have to imagine that elite teachers, like elite athletes, could command more money if they have a proven track record and reputation in the subject/field. If schools use their teachers as an enrollment tool, couldn't, in theory, those of us that have established ourselves as experts in our respective subject areas and field have the ability to negotiate a higher package?
Have any of you seen, heard, experienced this for yourselves, where after rejecting a school's offer they come back to the table and offer you more?
The Money Game
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shadowjack
- Posts: 2140
- Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:49 am
Good schools don't negotiate. The pay scale is the pay scale. Then again, the quality of staff that apply to good schools and their ability to pick the best, is very high. So they don't need to offer more incentives.
Crappy schools will pay more because they are crappy and desperate. It is all about money, and your white face puts bums in the seats. But at a crappy school, often there is no payscale/salary grid.
However, it seems that at schools like that, word goes around about who is making more for doing the same job - and people tend to depart with regularity.
If you are going to hold out on a school for more money, the decent schools will take that as a sign that they are glad they didn't hire you. The poor schools will weigh how fast they need you there (and how much they can add in other 'fees' and "necessary deductions" to lower your now-inflated salary as much as possible) before deciding whether to give you more money.
Crappy schools will pay more because they are crappy and desperate. It is all about money, and your white face puts bums in the seats. But at a crappy school, often there is no payscale/salary grid.
However, it seems that at schools like that, word goes around about who is making more for doing the same job - and people tend to depart with regularity.
If you are going to hold out on a school for more money, the decent schools will take that as a sign that they are glad they didn't hire you. The poor schools will weigh how fast they need you there (and how much they can add in other 'fees' and "necessary deductions" to lower your now-inflated salary as much as possible) before deciding whether to give you more money.
The final straw for me at a former school was when I learned some colleagues, who I knew were less qualified, were making about the same as I was earning. I left that year. I won't work for a school that does not have a salary scale.
I am sure many teachers think they are 'elite.' Still...follow the scale, or get rid of it. Once teachers start talking and when people know how much they are making and start making comparisions, it's all downhill for those schools and directors that do not follow their salary scale.
I am sure many teachers think they are 'elite.' Still...follow the scale, or get rid of it. Once teachers start talking and when people know how much they are making and start making comparisions, it's all downhill for those schools and directors that do not follow their salary scale.
@ShadowJack - makes sense, thanks for your reply.
@Senator - My thinking is more along the lines of what teachers are really worth. I see a point in the future where teachers, like athletes, can negotiate their packages based on their value to a school (team) and what they bring in terms of enrollment and prestige by teaching at said school. This value is quantifiable based on an advanced statistical model that I designed. Much like sabermetrics in baseball, or Nate Silver during the election.
Buzz - Interesting, thank you for sharing your thoughts. [/list]
@Senator - My thinking is more along the lines of what teachers are really worth. I see a point in the future where teachers, like athletes, can negotiate their packages based on their value to a school (team) and what they bring in terms of enrollment and prestige by teaching at said school. This value is quantifiable based on an advanced statistical model that I designed. Much like sabermetrics in baseball, or Nate Silver during the election.
Buzz - Interesting, thank you for sharing your thoughts. [/list]
Sorry, BlueJay,
No disrspect to your model, but my model is the law of supply and demand.
As long as technology allows so many teachers to be in tune with international school teaching schools will always be able to get good people - and sometimes not so good, but cheap, people - at their salary scale.
And why would you think that teachers would ever be valued as highly as athletes - or actors, politicians, businessmen - in this world?
No disrspect to your model, but my model is the law of supply and demand.
As long as technology allows so many teachers to be in tune with international school teaching schools will always be able to get good people - and sometimes not so good, but cheap, people - at their salary scale.
And why would you think that teachers would ever be valued as highly as athletes - or actors, politicians, businessmen - in this world?
A single athlete can create millions of dollars worth of profit for a sports organization. It is difficult to imagine any particular international school teacher having anywhere near the same effect on a school's bottom line. Sure, top schools do hire selectively, hiring only well qualified teachers with strong track records. However, within that pool of excellent teachers, I don't see how any one teacher would make a great financial impact on the school than another.
[quote="Buzzkill"]The final straw for me at a former school was when I learned some colleagues, who I knew were less qualified, were making about the same as I was earning. I left that year. I won't work for a school that does not have a salary scale.[/quote]
I agree wholeheartedly. I know of a 'teacher' at my school who makes more than I do, and he doesn't even have post secondary. I have Bachelor of Arts (honours) and my B.ed as well as some additional qualifications. He is an admin's son and was brought in to fill a vacant position (a position they made vacant when the previous teacher was sent home). He is barely functioning, because he doesn't have the training or knowledge base. It drives me nuts.
I agree wholeheartedly. I know of a 'teacher' at my school who makes more than I do, and he doesn't even have post secondary. I have Bachelor of Arts (honours) and my B.ed as well as some additional qualifications. He is an admin's son and was brought in to fill a vacant position (a position they made vacant when the previous teacher was sent home). He is barely functioning, because he doesn't have the training or knowledge base. It drives me nuts.
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intlskipper
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:29 pm
- Location: Cairo
[quote="Buzzkill"]The final straw for me at a former school was when I learned some colleagues, who I knew were less qualified, were making about the same as I was earning. I left that year. [b]I won't work for a school that does not have a salary scale.[/b]
I am sure many teachers think they are 'elite.' Still...follow the scale, or get rid of it. Once teachers start talking and when people know how much they are making and start making comparisions, it's all downhill for those schools and directors that do not follow their salary scale.[/quote]
I also will never work for another school without a salary scale.
At my current school there is a teacher who makes $3000/yr more than me. She only had a TESL cert and no experience when hired. She is teaching KG and doesn't have the certificate to teach it. I have a Masters, Teaching Cert and 1 year experience, not a ton there, but definitely should have been making more than she is given our qualifications.
I don't like these types of situations with salaries and agree that working at a school without one only causes problems.
My school also tries the bs of docking your pay for ridiculous things....so that happens too as someone else mentioned.
I think not having a scale and not following it makes a school a less reputable.
I am sure many teachers think they are 'elite.' Still...follow the scale, or get rid of it. Once teachers start talking and when people know how much they are making and start making comparisions, it's all downhill for those schools and directors that do not follow their salary scale.[/quote]
I also will never work for another school without a salary scale.
At my current school there is a teacher who makes $3000/yr more than me. She only had a TESL cert and no experience when hired. She is teaching KG and doesn't have the certificate to teach it. I have a Masters, Teaching Cert and 1 year experience, not a ton there, but definitely should have been making more than she is given our qualifications.
I don't like these types of situations with salaries and agree that working at a school without one only causes problems.
My school also tries the bs of docking your pay for ridiculous things....so that happens too as someone else mentioned.
I think not having a scale and not following it makes a school a less reputable.
I love how some people think that having smart coupons mean you can get paid more.
I would put it this way, teachers are a dime a dozen, what school would just pay extra for just a teacher. Get a former engineer to teach Math, or a Lawyer to teach legal studies etc, and thEy can command more since they have industry experience and are used to higher pay scales, if they also have their teaching certification. After all, there are only limited skills a failed artist can pass on t o their students compared to a graphic designer with several sucessful years in industry can.
I would put it this way, teachers are a dime a dozen, what school would just pay extra for just a teacher. Get a former engineer to teach Math, or a Lawyer to teach legal studies etc, and thEy can command more since they have industry experience and are used to higher pay scales, if they also have their teaching certification. After all, there are only limited skills a failed artist can pass on t o their students compared to a graphic designer with several sucessful years in industry can.
I agree. With the job market the way it is there are a lot of good teachers available. New graduates are flooding the market every year and some of them are good too. Good schools are not going to negotiate salary. They are going to tell you who they are and throw down their package (salary, housing, insurance, etc) then leave it up to you to decide whether or not you are going to take it or hold out for something that you think is better but they aren't going to give you weeks to decide.
I work with a teacher that is always barking about 'if this school wants to keep me they will' do this and that. Every time he does that I laugh at him and tell him they aren't going to negotiate with him. They will thank him for the years and wish him luck. He signs that new contract every year and gets nothing that he tries to negotiate for.
Why would you want to work for a school that is going to negotiate this anyway? What if you thought you got a good deal only to find out several other teachers got a much better deal than you even if they were not nearly as good at the job?
I work with a teacher that is always barking about 'if this school wants to keep me they will' do this and that. Every time he does that I laugh at him and tell him they aren't going to negotiate with him. They will thank him for the years and wish him luck. He signs that new contract every year and gets nothing that he tries to negotiate for.
Why would you want to work for a school that is going to negotiate this anyway? What if you thought you got a good deal only to find out several other teachers got a much better deal than you even if they were not nearly as good at the job?
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I agree that ive never met a teacher that didnt think they werent special.
You cant really negotiate a salary scale, what you can do is negotiate steps on that scale. A school may have a Bachelors and a Masters salary scale, but say you have a dual major in relevant teaching fields. Youc ant just ask for more money because you got paid a certain salary at your previous position, but you can argue that your dual major is even if not a masters is experience and worth a step or two on the salary scale.
You cant really negotiate a salary scale, what you can do is negotiate steps on that scale. A school may have a Bachelors and a Masters salary scale, but say you have a dual major in relevant teaching fields. Youc ant just ask for more money because you got paid a certain salary at your previous position, but you can argue that your dual major is even if not a masters is experience and worth a step or two on the salary scale.
[quote="Mathman"]I love how some people think that having smart coupons mean you can get paid more.
I would put it this way, teachers are a dime a dozen, what school would just pay extra for just a teacher. Get a former engineer to teach Math, or a Lawyer to teach legal studies etc, and thEy can command more since they have industry experience and are used to higher pay scales, if they also have their teaching certification. After all, there are only limited skills a failed artist can pass on t o their students compared to a graphic designer with several sucessful years in industry can.[/quote]
I always thought that a " pay scale is a pay scale and it is not negotiable " until I got offered a higher salary altogether. It's bc I was working as a finance manager for a dept of 200 for a multibillion dollar company around 4 years before I got my license. So, they accounted my education ( B.Sc in Economics, M.Sc in Finance, CPA and of course, B.Ed - with current steps to my Ed.D ). This is also coming from 2 very good if not " elite " or " premier " schools in the country that I am currently working at.
I would put it this way, teachers are a dime a dozen, what school would just pay extra for just a teacher. Get a former engineer to teach Math, or a Lawyer to teach legal studies etc, and thEy can command more since they have industry experience and are used to higher pay scales, if they also have their teaching certification. After all, there are only limited skills a failed artist can pass on t o their students compared to a graphic designer with several sucessful years in industry can.[/quote]
I always thought that a " pay scale is a pay scale and it is not negotiable " until I got offered a higher salary altogether. It's bc I was working as a finance manager for a dept of 200 for a multibillion dollar company around 4 years before I got my license. So, they accounted my education ( B.Sc in Economics, M.Sc in Finance, CPA and of course, B.Ed - with current steps to my Ed.D ). This is also coming from 2 very good if not " elite " or " premier " schools in the country that I am currently working at.
From talking to friends and family over the year, it seems that teachers are one of the only jobs that have a salary scale in the private sector. I think it is the only professional job with one. Sure fresh graduates start on the same scale, but things change once talent has been identified (or ruled out).
Negotiation is supposed to be part of a professionals final pay. That's how the employer will know what skills they bring to the job since they are paying for it. Some things mean less to others. Some will prefer larger rent allowances and less flight allowances. Opting for no health insurance etc.
Quite frankly, I will opt for a flight allowance for the year to use as I want. Not restricted to only summer travel. Why the he'll do I want to see 2 winters a year(Australia)
Negotiation is supposed to be part of a professionals final pay. That's how the employer will know what skills they bring to the job since they are paying for it. Some things mean less to others. Some will prefer larger rent allowances and less flight allowances. Opting for no health insurance etc.
Quite frankly, I will opt for a flight allowance for the year to use as I want. Not restricted to only summer travel. Why the he'll do I want to see 2 winters a year(Australia)