Jumping Schools

nkraai
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:04 pm

Jumping Schools

Post by nkraai »

Is it common for people to sign a contract early in the recruiting season and then find a better school/position as one opens up and take that offer later in the recruiting season? Like before the first school has invested any money in you? What does Search do about this if you are signed up with them?
Overhere
Posts: 497
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:29 am

Post by Overhere »

If you have signed a contract then I believe you are committed. Its not only a matter of money but its also a matter of time and lost opportunities. If you sign and then jump ship the school has missed the opportunity to recruit candidates that have signed contracts elsewhere.
shadowjack
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Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:49 am

Post by shadowjack »

Directors also talk to one another, so you might jeopardize your chances down the road.
shadowjack
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Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:49 am

Post by shadowjack »

Also, if it is not really a school you would go to, why the heck are you signing a contract in the first place?????
Snowbeavers
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Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:56 pm

Post by Snowbeavers »

This is not a common practice and I would not recommend this as it could jeopardize your professional career. You could be blacklisted from ever signing up with ISS or Search again. Don't do it.
nkraai
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:04 pm

Post by nkraai »

[quote="Snowbeavers"]This is not a common practice and I would not recommend this as it could jeopardize your professional career. You could be blacklisted from ever signing up with ISS or Search again. Don't do it.[/quote

My wife and I are elated about where we are headed. We have no desire to break our word. However, we still get contacted by other schools, some new, some we had applied for earlier. Do schools poach candidates who have made commitments to other schools?
Snowbeavers
Posts: 72
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:56 pm

Post by Snowbeavers »

[quote="nkraai"][quote="Snowbeavers"]This is not a common practice and I would not recommend this as it could jeopardize your professional career. You could be blacklisted from ever signing up with ISS or Search again. Don't do it.[/quote

My wife and I are elated about where we are headed. We have no desire to break our word. However, we still get contacted by other schools, some new, some we had applied for earlier. Do schools poach candidates who have made commitments to other schools?[/quote]

Not reputable ones...Again, this could affect the school's reputation and chance of being invited to the recruitment fairs.
sid
Posts: 1392
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:44 am

Post by sid »

Don't do it.
You'll likely hear from a small number of people about how 'you must look out for number one, nobody else will', and 'schools screw people all the time', but no matter what they claim, this is a bad idea.
Has anyone ever gotten away with it? Of course.
Is it a victimless crime? No. You'd be putting the first school in a very difficult and expensive position.
You'd be breaking your word. It's dishonest, unethical and just plain wrong. I want no part of that on my conscious.
Check the agencies' rules. They all make it clear that as soon as you accept an offer, even just verbally, you must immediately cease your job search. The only acceptable response to an unsolicited nibble is 'Sorry, we've already accepted a position'. Any recruiter I know would end the conversation right there, and any who wouldn't is not someone I'd want to work for.

Worst case scenario: You ditch the first school for the second, giving some excuse for why you can no longer come. The first school reports your change of heart to the recruiting agency and/or mentions it to other recruiters. And they find out officially or otherwise, that you've taken a position elsewhere instead. This is very predictable - the recruiters circle is very small and we talk. The head you just signed with might be close friends with the one you ditched - they worked together years ago even though they are now working continents apart. The head might see your picture in the agency newsletter, listing your new position (yep, these positions are almost all formally and publicly announced, with pictures). And then the skies open. School two finds out what you've done. They cancel your contract before you even move house. (They're in their legal rights there, since you lied during the application process about being available. Any lie is grounds for immediate dismissal.) You get reported to the various agencies, most likely just the one you were working with, but possibly all of them. The agency bans you from their registry. And your international career crashes and burns. You're out of pocket for a ton of recruiting expenses, you've quit your current job, put your house on the market (or sold it!), and divested yourself of 200 kg of household items you thought you'd no longer need.

A cautionary tale, indeed.
It happens every year to at least one person.
Don't let it be you.
PsyGuy
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Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

As Sid quoted, Im that small number of people. Sids also an admin, just giving you perspective.

Is breaking contract for a better offer "common", no. Is it rare, no, its somewhere in the middle around "uncommon".

Examining some of the warnings and claims:

1) Yes, SA and ISS will ban you from joining their agency, its usually not a forever permanent ban. The agencies are in this for money, and if your a competitive candidate thats going to earn them a placement fee, they arent going to punish themselves by turning away easy money. The agncy is basically going to get paid twice for you once by school one (or you ) and again by school 2, so the usual ban is one contract or two years and they still break even. Of course you have to say all the right things at that time, like you were inexperienced and stupid, and made a mistake and your really sorry, but again this is business, its not about championing all that is good and right and true, its about money.

2) The IS market isnt that small. There are over 2000 international IB schools alone, and thats not counting the AS (American School) programs and the UK (IGCSE, GCSE, A levels) and the other national programs. Thats a lot of HOS (Heads of School). Theres a small circle of recruiters mostly at the big well known schools who talk and are friends but were talking a handful of people, even AISHnet only has a couple warning postings each year.

3) Sure a school will post/publish new hires on their website or the school paper or bulletin, but unless your a student, staff, or parent of the school no one else is really going to read it.

4) Yes schools poach staff from other schools. There are gentleman's agreements in cities like Bangkok and Beijing where they agree and respect each others staff hires, but poaching still happens. You should understand that there is almost no consequences for a school doing so. The agencies very rarely do anything as long as they are paying their invoices. Dropping a school as a client is like saying good buy to at least $10K if not more in a year. That doesnt hurt the school, they have other means of recruiting then one of the big agencies.

5) Yes it happens at least once every year, but it happens more often the once a year and everyone else gets a way with it.
The usual quid pro quo between the teach and the recruiter goes like this, we wont say we hired you and risk exposing your contract break to the agency, and we dont have to pay the placement fee.

6) Is it a bad idea, sure. So is being stuck in a bottom tier school and suffering for two years. Saying no to a once in a lifetime offer based on "principal" is a pretty bad idea too. You might want to take notice that Sid didnt really dispute or argue against those claims of "you must look out for number one, nobody else will, and schools screw people all the time", because they happen to be true. Are their risks, yes, but their are also rewards for those risks.

7) Is it a victimless crime, well it depends when you break the first contract. If its august theirs going to be some stress and costs for the school if its February, then their isnt a victim or any real loss.

8) Is it dishonest, sure but so is jaywalking and dating two woman at the same time, lieing to your boss about why your hungover, sorry "sick", etc. Lot went looking for 10 honest men, and Diogenes only one, neither of them succeeded. Its naive to think anything in life is fair, if you do there are some bankers on wall street that would love to invest your money for you. No risk, high yields and returns.

Is it unethical, some state and regulatory bodies prescribe sanctions for "contract abandonment". None of them apply to private/independent schools or international schools. ive never heard a case cited by any regulatory authority in which a foreign OSH (OverSeas Hire) teacher was formally sanctioned. Their are no international regulatory agencies that oversea ITs (International Teachers).
So what are we talking personal ethics? Whose ethics mine or yours? My ethical guidelines are needless to say "different" then those of others, and their personal to me not to others, so im really the only one who is in a position to comment on my own congruence to whatever ethical principals i create.

9) Yes agencies have rules, go to a fair and youll see how many times schools break them. There is a a 24 hour to decide rule, and a no recruiting the night before rule, but schools break them all the time. Do a search for "David Getling" on this forum or just follow this link and youll see a perfect example of "schools breaking the rules"

http://internationalschoolsreview.com/v ... php?t=2620


if you want to break contract the best advice is to fake a family or medical emergency, let the school down gently and sign with your new school as far removed from the agency circle as possible.
overseasvet2
Posts: 191
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:50 pm

Why not be content?

Post by overseasvet2 »

If you are "elated" with where you are headed, do not even think about the others. Your best bet for getting to those schools in the future is to be honest now. If you are in a high needs area, it can be a bit like being a kid in a candy shop. You have made a decision you think is a good one for you, now you just need to mentally turn off the job hunting mindset. Just because the schools contact you does not mean the job is yours.

Another perspective, are you signed up with one of the placement agencies? If so, you are probably already listed by them as employed. It may not show up to searching schools but the minute the agency gets a notice from the second school that you have signed a second contract, the worst case scenario could start to unfold.

Enjoy the fact you have avoided the craziness of the fairs and have been offered a job you are excited about. You are way ahead of others at this point.
sid
Posts: 1392
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:44 am

Re: Reply

Post by sid »

[quote="PsyGuy"]Sids also an admin, just giving you perspective.[/quote]
Yep. And a former teacher for many years in the international circuit. My views didn't change when I changed jobs.



[quote="PsyGuy"]2) The IS market isnt that small. There are over 2000 international IB schools alone, and thats not counting the AS (American School) programs and the UK (IGCSE, GCSE, A levels) and the other national programs. Thats a lot of HOS (Heads of School). Theres a small circle of recruiters mostly at the big well known schools who talk and are friends but were talking a handful of people, even AISHnet only has a couple warning postings each year. [/quote]
It's not the size that's really the issue. It's the connectivity. Sit me down at pretty much any table at pretty much any international school conference, and within a few minutes I can pinpoint a friend I have in common with 1 or more of the 7 strangers sitting there, if I don't already know at least 1 of those people directly. I've done it many many times.
You just can't know whether your two school heads are directly connected. If they're not, they're certainly indirectly connected.

[quote="PsyGuy"]3) Sure a school will post/publish new hires on their website or the school paper or bulletin, but unless your a student, staff, or parent of the school no one else is really going to read it.[/quote]
More pertinent, the recruiting agencies publish newspapers and on-line sites with lists of all their placements with pictures. These are common reading material in the staffroom and admin offices. It's one way we keep up to date with the movements of people we used to work with.

4) Yes schools poach staff from other schools. There are gentleman's agreements in cities like Bangkok and Beijing where they agree and respect each others staff hires, but poaching still happens. You should understand that there is almost no consequences for a school doing so. The agencies very rarely do anything as long as they are paying their invoices. Dropping a school as a client is like saying good buy to at least $10K if not more in a year. That doesnt hurt the school, they have other means of recruiting then one of the big agencies. [/quote]
A certain kind of poaching does happen regularly between schools located in the same city or country, mainly in the form of a teacher switching schools at the end of the school year. It may or may not be seen as poaching since typically the teacher finishes the first contract, gives appropriate notice, etc. Schools often don't like when it happens to them, since they paid the big bucks to move the person out in the first place, but as long as the teacher finishes their contract, no rules are actually broken. It's not the same thing at all as a teacher continuing to look for positions when they have already committed to one.



[quote="PsyGuy"]6) Is it a bad idea, sure. So is being stuck in a bottom tier school and suffering for two years. Saying no to a once in a lifetime offer based on "principal" is a pretty bad idea too. You might want to take notice that Sid didnt really dispute or argue against those claims of "you must look out for number one, nobody else will, and schools screw people all the time", because they happen to be true. [/quote]
I can argue with them now.
You can look out for number one by making sure to sign a contract that you will be happy with. And by living in a way that you feel is honorable. And by not putting yourself in a situation that could easily end in disaster. And by being satisfied with what you have, rather than making yourself miserable by constantly looking at what you don't have.

I do not believe that schools screw people all the time. If I believed that, I couldn't continue in this profession. Misunderstandings happen, schools and teachers have different priorities and ideas, but I believe that everyone does the best they can, and that very few schools or teachers set out to deliberately take advantage of anyone. I believe that when a situation leads to harm for someone, schools and teachers generally work as best they can to make things better, with compassion and a good spirit. There are a small number of schools that really do mess with people, and that stinks. There are a small number of teachers that really do mess with schools, and that stinks too. The existence of these people and the rottenness of their actions do not make it acceptable for me to do the same. And certainly not to do the same in a preemptive strike against an innocent and unsuspecting ..
PsyGuy
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Location: Northern Europe

Comment

Post by PsyGuy »

Right, your the admin championing the cause of teachers, because of course weve all heard off honest admins who will tell you they would happily throw any of their teachers under a bus if it was for the good of the school (or the schools owners). Thats the thing about unscrupulous admins, they dont have a problem lying when it serves their needs.

Of course you know admins at the same table at a conference, you go to the same conferences attended by the same people, over and over. When i go to the same bar over and over, i see the same group of regulars. Thats called a closed network.
Theres no such thing as an "indirect" relationship. Thats the facebook fallacy. Just because you know someone who knows someone else, who knows someone else, means you dont know them. If you know someone who introduces someone to you, then you know them, and you have a direct relationship now. There is no 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon or anyone else, for that matter. If there are some strangers ata table and you know one other person, that means you DONT know 7 people, thats what stranger means.

No one reads the recruiting agency pubs, they dont even look at the pictures. its like subscribing to National Geographic, you just put it on the coffee table so people will think your cultured and worldly. If you seriously read the Agency publications, theres this thing called twitter you need to look into.

So which road are you taking the technical road or the principal road? Id like to know which side of the hair your splitting you want to be on. If you want to be "technical" then you contract from school one, before signing contract with school 2 email SA and quit. Then email school one and cancel contract. There now there are "technically" no more rules to follow since the agency rules are the only rules there are and you havent "technically" falsified your application with school2 since since you werent under contract (you canceled) with school one. Technical problems solved.
Either what the schools are doing is all right or its wrong. i have never claimed my bad or ugly advice is virtuous, but I dont have any illusions about about my character, i choose the selfish and evil path knowing its the selfish and evil path, im ok with that. I dont pretend my bad behavior is technically not bad, so must be good.

All that a side i suppose i went to fast over the point that outside of those gentleman agreements schools and HOS still outright poach staff. IS Genovia broke the rules and stole my teacher call the???? Call the who? where are the IS police? Is there some international education court? SA or ISS is going to drop you as a school? So what?

So did you misread the part about debating and arguing AGAINST looking out for number one, because all you did was agree with me and provide different examples, which while completely valid do not invalidate my examples and path choices, nor do they make them any less true.

Well not believing something is true doesnt make it so. Of course getting back to my first paragraph, all your claims and assertions are not self authenticating. They arent true just because you say they are. Thats why evil wins, it cheats. Evil admins have no problem lying, cheating and deceiving teachers to serve their purpose.

"Misunderstandings" is just another word for selective obfuscation. We dont like it so we misunderstood it, so we dont have to do it. I do it all the time with my principal "Im sorry i didnt understand" is a one of the top 5 excuses my students use.

Do you seriously believe that sunshine and rainbows speech that everyone tries their best and no one deliberately takes advantage of anyone (what is there accidently taking advantage of someone or mistakenly taking advantage of someone? You meant to take advantage of someone else and thought you were them? You didnt intend to take advantage of them but when you did you were to lazy to fix it? Is that like accidently having sex?)
have you seen the paid side of this site, you think those would be there if "schools and teachers generally work as best they can to make things better, with compassion and a good spirit"?
sid
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Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:44 am

Post by sid »

This conversation's gotten too juvenile for me. I've said my piece and I'm out.
nkraai
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:04 pm

Post by nkraai »

It sounds like a touchy subject for many ... All I was getting at was that if we are still getting asked about interviewing even though we have accepted positions, I am sure this is happening to others, which made me wonder if this was common practice. The schools that have still contacted us are definitely Tier 1 schools with great reputations. To their credit, as soon as we e-mail back stating we have accepted positions elsewhere, they end their pursuit.

My wife and I are happy to have a job without dealing with the fair. We are excited for where we are headed, and those suggesting to keep an open mind about places were spot on. The school we are headed to was never on our radar, but we became more impressed with the school, the staff, and the community, the more we talked with those involved. It seems like a perfect fit for our family.
WeDoDude
Posts: 136
Joined: Mon May 07, 2012 11:46 pm

Post by WeDoDude »

I would side with Sid on this one, who is a respected member of this online community. If you have nothing but your word and you break that word then you have nothing.

I'll tell you what most of the respectable schools will think if you respond to their request for an interview with a note that you have already signed a contract but would like them to keep you in mind in two years, or whenever the contract is up. They'll think that you are an honest person, perhaps someone that they might like to have on staff one day. And when you do finish out your contract and have earned a positive recommendation from said school, they'll even look more favorably upon you and the request for an interview may even turn into a contract.
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