Would you quit?
Would you quit?
Several schools ask their teachers to confirm their intentions by the end of November or early December. a. How many of you out there think that it is reasonable to ask the admin for an extension, say a week or two, before you make a final decision? b. Also, how many of you would succumb to the admin pressure and quit your current job to look for a new one, especially given the long waiting period and the uncertainties that come with it? Thanks for your response.
Reply
Its reasonable to ask for an extension, its also reasonable for your admin to refuse an extension. The reasonableness increases the closer your deadline is to early November, and decreases the closer it is Early December. If your deadline is 1 Dec, asking for a couple more weeks (15 Dec) is really pushing it, that means that an admin is going to have to spend some holiday time screening top candidates pretty late in the game for BKK.
The vast majority of teachers would not quit without an offer in hand or very strong options in the works. Teachers would just give their intent to renew and look for a better position in the meantime. If they find one they notify their school of resignation (when to do that depends on a lot of factors), if they dont they just stay where they are.
The vast majority of teachers would not quit without an offer in hand or very strong options in the works. Teachers would just give their intent to renew and look for a better position in the meantime. If they find one they notify their school of resignation (when to do that depends on a lot of factors), if they dont they just stay where they are.
Thanks for your comprehensive response, PsyGuy. Let's say Teacher Bob says 'Yes' in November and then he applies to a new job and without Bob's knowledge, his prospective employer contacts his current School Head for a reference. The School Head then confronts Bob and screws up his chances of finding a new job. That also means this teacher damaged his reputation at his present school. What should Bob's strategy be to find a new job in the post-confrontation period? Thanks in advance.
Advise
Its not really the issue you think it is. Even if the school had asked you to consult your current school, if you had said no, they wouldnt have hired you anyway, and saying yes would have produced the same result, in your admins response.
In the future teacher Bob should take his current school of his resume, dont take the experience off, just the name of the school.
2010-Present International School U.K.
If a school is interested, an interview is the time to have that discussion, when you have an opportunity to express your concerns with your current school. You can then explain what your current admins response is likely going to be given the circumstances. If a positive reference by this admin its a deal breaker for them then you can pass and move on, as your current admin isnt going to endorse you.
If its an issue with them either on moral or professional grounds you can move on, they wouldnt have hired you anyway, and you dont have to worry about the blow back at your current school. If
In the future teacher Bob should take his current school of his resume, dont take the experience off, just the name of the school.
2010-Present International School U.K.
If a school is interested, an interview is the time to have that discussion, when you have an opportunity to express your concerns with your current school. You can then explain what your current admins response is likely going to be given the circumstances. If a positive reference by this admin its a deal breaker for them then you can pass and move on, as your current admin isnt going to endorse you.
If its an issue with them either on moral or professional grounds you can move on, they wouldnt have hired you anyway, and you dont have to worry about the blow back at your current school. If
I believe there a few things about the recruiting season that many teachers just don't understand and if they did, it would lessen might stress levels considerably.
Firstly, all schools have a turnover of teachers each year. Some have a higher level than others, but it would be very rare for a school to have none. Turnover comes from things like, retirements, internal moves and restructuring, teachers being moved on and teachers wishing to move on. What this means is that administrators expect there to be changes each year. They also know that it is quite reasonable for teachers coming to the end of their contract to think about their options. A teacher who talks to their admin about this is not unusual.
The second thing is that the move by many schools for the earlier sign-on date before Christmas is actually in many teacher's favor. It means that the recruiting season starts a lot earlier, so there is significantly more contact between schools and prospective teachers before the fairs. What this means is that any teacher who just wants to test the water and apply to a few schools, and they are a sought after candidate, will have a good sense of the level of interest they are attracting, and may even get an offer, before their contracts are due at their current school. On the other hand, if there doesn't seem to be much interest, it might help the teacher make the decision to sign on where they are for another contract.
The third thing is, the IS world is very small, and the admin group are very connected. They attend events like leadership conferences, PTC, and all the recruiting fairs, so many people know each other. So if a resume comes across their desk from a person at a certain school, it's common for them to fire off an email to the person they know working at the school, even if they are not listed as a reference, and ask about the candidate. What becomes awkward then is when the admin person says to the teacher in the school, "Oh I believe you are applying to this school." Then there is embarrassment and concern on the part of teacher if they have not let the school know that they are testing the waters.
The final thing is that now that many schools have a sign-on date before Christmas break, taking the leap of faith and resigning from your current school without an offer on the table from another school is the case for many people. It doesn't mean they are bad teachers, it just means that opportunities have not opened up yet, and they will need to go to the fairs to seek a position. This is the situation for many of the candidates at the fairs. It's a tough situation to be in when you have a family and financial obligations, to take that leap of faith, but it's the process at the moment.
My advice for any teacher is to talk to their administrator early in the new school year that they are considering their options for the next year. There are three reasons why this is important. 1 You gain respect through your honesty. 2 It gives the admin an early idea of what their recruiting needs might be so they can start the recruiting process earlier. 3 As they interact with other admin from other schools, they talk about what their prospective needs might be and not only can they share this information with you about what might be out there, but they can also promote you to other schools.
The last thing I will say is that teachers need to remember that no one is indispensable. If you move on, your job will be filled by someone the very next year. Administrators expect there to be changes each year, or even for teachers to test the waters before contracts are due each year. The earlier you can talk things through with them is better for you and the school.
Firstly, all schools have a turnover of teachers each year. Some have a higher level than others, but it would be very rare for a school to have none. Turnover comes from things like, retirements, internal moves and restructuring, teachers being moved on and teachers wishing to move on. What this means is that administrators expect there to be changes each year. They also know that it is quite reasonable for teachers coming to the end of their contract to think about their options. A teacher who talks to their admin about this is not unusual.
The second thing is that the move by many schools for the earlier sign-on date before Christmas is actually in many teacher's favor. It means that the recruiting season starts a lot earlier, so there is significantly more contact between schools and prospective teachers before the fairs. What this means is that any teacher who just wants to test the water and apply to a few schools, and they are a sought after candidate, will have a good sense of the level of interest they are attracting, and may even get an offer, before their contracts are due at their current school. On the other hand, if there doesn't seem to be much interest, it might help the teacher make the decision to sign on where they are for another contract.
The third thing is, the IS world is very small, and the admin group are very connected. They attend events like leadership conferences, PTC, and all the recruiting fairs, so many people know each other. So if a resume comes across their desk from a person at a certain school, it's common for them to fire off an email to the person they know working at the school, even if they are not listed as a reference, and ask about the candidate. What becomes awkward then is when the admin person says to the teacher in the school, "Oh I believe you are applying to this school." Then there is embarrassment and concern on the part of teacher if they have not let the school know that they are testing the waters.
The final thing is that now that many schools have a sign-on date before Christmas break, taking the leap of faith and resigning from your current school without an offer on the table from another school is the case for many people. It doesn't mean they are bad teachers, it just means that opportunities have not opened up yet, and they will need to go to the fairs to seek a position. This is the situation for many of the candidates at the fairs. It's a tough situation to be in when you have a family and financial obligations, to take that leap of faith, but it's the process at the moment.
My advice for any teacher is to talk to their administrator early in the new school year that they are considering their options for the next year. There are three reasons why this is important. 1 You gain respect through your honesty. 2 It gives the admin an early idea of what their recruiting needs might be so they can start the recruiting process earlier. 3 As they interact with other admin from other schools, they talk about what their prospective needs might be and not only can they share this information with you about what might be out there, but they can also promote you to other schools.
The last thing I will say is that teachers need to remember that no one is indispensable. If you move on, your job will be filled by someone the very next year. Administrators expect there to be changes each year, or even for teachers to test the waters before contracts are due each year. The earlier you can talk things through with them is better for you and the school.
Reply
@Cyril
Depending on the tier of school, not having any vacancies is more the norm. Elite schools can go a couples of years without having to recruit anyone at all. It would be rare for third tier schools to have no turnover but becomes quit common at the upper echelons.
NO, it is not in anyway in the teachers favor having an early intent/notice date. Outside of Europe a notice or intent letter in early october and november is the same as a resignation. You dont get to go looking for a new and better position while having the security of your current position and school to fall back on if it doesnt work out. What do you think they are going to do just wait until May or June for you to decide if your staying or not?
If admins valued honesty, they would lbe more honest themselves. Have you even looked at the paid review side of this site? What admins want is to know all your cards while keeping theirs secret. I dont know and have ever experienced an admin that was so with one of their teachers professional lives that they actively advocated for their teachers in the job process at any fair or PTD event. The vastly overwhelming experience I have seen by admins is that as soon as a teacher indicates they are on the way out, the admin wants little if anything to do with them.
Yes, there are risks when looking for a new school, but they are the same risks in any aspect of industry. Do you trade the security and stability of a current job over the prospects for a better one, with the chance that you may end up broke an unemployed? Do you look behind your admins back, trusting in the strength of your resume and prior references? Would your current admin give you a negative refereal because your really such a valuable teacher to their staff that they dont want to loose you, and knowing they cant replace you for what they can offer another candidate?
Depending on the tier of school, not having any vacancies is more the norm. Elite schools can go a couples of years without having to recruit anyone at all. It would be rare for third tier schools to have no turnover but becomes quit common at the upper echelons.
NO, it is not in anyway in the teachers favor having an early intent/notice date. Outside of Europe a notice or intent letter in early october and november is the same as a resignation. You dont get to go looking for a new and better position while having the security of your current position and school to fall back on if it doesnt work out. What do you think they are going to do just wait until May or June for you to decide if your staying or not?
If admins valued honesty, they would lbe more honest themselves. Have you even looked at the paid review side of this site? What admins want is to know all your cards while keeping theirs secret. I dont know and have ever experienced an admin that was so with one of their teachers professional lives that they actively advocated for their teachers in the job process at any fair or PTD event. The vastly overwhelming experience I have seen by admins is that as soon as a teacher indicates they are on the way out, the admin wants little if anything to do with them.
Yes, there are risks when looking for a new school, but they are the same risks in any aspect of industry. Do you trade the security and stability of a current job over the prospects for a better one, with the chance that you may end up broke an unemployed? Do you look behind your admins back, trusting in the strength of your resume and prior references? Would your current admin give you a negative refereal because your really such a valuable teacher to their staff that they dont want to loose you, and knowing they cant replace you for what they can offer another candidate?
-
wrldtrvlr123
- Posts: 1173
- Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
- Location: Japan
Re: Reply
[quote="PsyGuy"]@Cyril
Depending on the tier of school, not having any vacancies is more the norm. Elite schools can go a couples of years without having to recruit anyone at all. It would be rare for third tier schools to have no turnover but becomes quit common at the upper echelons.
-------------------------------------------
Far be for it me to follow the current fad by disagreeing with you (although tbf I was disagreeing with you before it became trendy :D), but virtually all elite schools have turnover or create new positions virtually every year. How do I know? Because they post positions on places like Search, EVERY YEAR. I know you see the same posts, so I'm not sure why or how you could possibly take the position that they don't. Sure ASIJ may only be one or two, but then WAB or ISB (pick one) may be 5 or even 10 on a given year (although that would be fairly rare).
Depending on the tier of school, not having any vacancies is more the norm. Elite schools can go a couples of years without having to recruit anyone at all. It would be rare for third tier schools to have no turnover but becomes quit common at the upper echelons.
-------------------------------------------
Far be for it me to follow the current fad by disagreeing with you (although tbf I was disagreeing with you before it became trendy :D), but virtually all elite schools have turnover or create new positions virtually every year. How do I know? Because they post positions on places like Search, EVERY YEAR. I know you see the same posts, so I'm not sure why or how you could possibly take the position that they don't. Sure ASIJ may only be one or two, but then WAB or ISB (pick one) may be 5 or even 10 on a given year (although that would be fairly rare).
Comment
@wrldtrvlr123
Last year ASIJ recruited no one, they had no turnover, except for a few part time position. When was the last time you saw one of the elite schools in France, Italy, Spain, Switzerland, etc recruiting? These schools can go several years without recruiting anyone.
Recruiting and hireling are different things. A number of top tier schools post tentative vacancies early in the year to build a candidate pool in case they need to recruit. These schools don't actually have definite positions for all those vacancies.
It's become more common recently for a school to list a tentative position as definite to attract higher caliber candidates, since the really marketable teachers don't want to waste time on a school and vacancy that doesn't actually exist.
Last year ASIJ recruited no one, they had no turnover, except for a few part time position. When was the last time you saw one of the elite schools in France, Italy, Spain, Switzerland, etc recruiting? These schools can go several years without recruiting anyone.
Recruiting and hireling are different things. A number of top tier schools post tentative vacancies early in the year to build a candidate pool in case they need to recruit. These schools don't actually have definite positions for all those vacancies.
It's become more common recently for a school to list a tentative position as definite to attract higher caliber candidates, since the really marketable teachers don't want to waste time on a school and vacancy that doesn't actually exist.
PsyGuy,
Firstly, a little background on myself. I am in my 16th year in the international schools world. I started at a large school in Asia, moved to Europe and am now back in Asia. All three of these schools I have seen described in threads on this forum as tier 1, elite or premier. Anyway you want to look at it, they are top schools. I offer this only so you get a sense of the experience that I bring to my comments.
PsyGuy, you are in fact a major reason that I have joined this forum. While there is lots of good advice being shared on these boards, unfortunately there is also reasonably high level of information that is shared as fact when actually it is not. I don’t claim to know everything about International Schools, but I know what I know and for too long I have read statements in this forum that I know to be factually incorrect. So I have been inspired to add my own 2 cents worth.
To your comments:
[i]Depending on the tier of school, not having any vacancies is more the norm. Elite schools can go a couples of years without having to recruit anyone at all. It would be rare for third tier schools to have no turnover but becomes quit common at the upper echelons.[/i]
See, this is what I am talking about. A person new to international schools might read this and actually believe that there are top level international schools that go a couple of years without having to recruit anyone. That is just not true. Please name for me one ‘elite’ international school that has not needed to hire a single teacher over a two year period?
[i]NO, it is not in anyway in the teachers favor having an early intent/notice date. Outside of Europe a notice or intent letter in early october and november is the same as a resignation. You dont get to go looking for a new and better position while having the security of your current position and school to fall back on if it doesnt work out. What do you think they are going to do just wait until May or June for you to decide if your staying or not?[/i]
Firstly, for most teachers, I would imagine that being offered a position at a school that they have applied to directly before the Christmas break would be much more desirable then having to go to a job fair. You may disagree with this, but it also seems to be the preferred option of every person I know who has been in the market for a new job. In order for this to happen, there needs to be jobs advertised. Therefore, having an earlier sign-on date, and in most cases, an even earlier indication of intent, provides the school with possible openings which they then post. More jobs posted earlier is good for teachers. For those that know they are leaving their current jobs, it is a chance for them to get a position before the break and avoid the fairs. For those that just want to test the waters, it gives them a chance to apply for a couple of things and if nothing comes from it in regard to an early offer, no harm done, they just sign on again at their current school.
Secondly, and again what you have said is factually incorrect, in many schools in Asia, certainly the ones I have worked for, and others I am very aware of, the process is for the teachers to be asked to sign a letter of intent, a month or so before they are required to sign their actual contracts. The letter of intent is non-binding, rather it is way of letting the school of your intentions so that they can plan their recruiting strategy. The timelines for these have changed in my time overseas, although currently it seems to be that the letters of intent are due around mid-October and the contracts themselves are due to be signed around December 1. That may vary from school to school, but it’s about right.
Going back to the point of my original post, the absolute best way for a teacher to go through this process is to talk with their admin early and let them know:
1 I will be signing on again.
2 I will be moving on, so I will not be signing a contract.
3 I’m happy here, but would like to just test the waters with a couple of positions. Should nothing come of those, I will be signing on again by the date contacts are due.
Some teachers worry that the last of these options is somehow disloyal to the their current school so it will be seen in a bad light. My view is that this is not the case. Admin expect people to consider all their options as they are coming up for contact renewal. What is seen in a bad light is saying number 1 and then actually pursuing number 3.
In regards to the original post, if you are testing the waters, it is absolutely OK to go to your admin and ask for an extension on that contact date of a week or two when they know that you are actually interviewing with a school. They might not grant it, however given that you have let them know early that you would be looking, they might even have posted your job as tentative and have already started to build a list of people that they wish to speak with about your job. Keeping people in the loop makes all of these processes much easier.
Given this process I have described, all contacts for the next school year will have been signed by returning teachers by mid-December. I hope this answers you question about May or June.
[i]If admins valued honesty, they would lbe more honest themselves. Have you even looked at the paid review side of this site? What admins want is to know all your cards while keeping theirs secret. I dont know and have ever experienced an admin that was so with one of their teachers professional lives that they actively advocated for their teachers in the job process at any fair or PTD event. The vastly overwhelming experience I have seen by admins is that as soon as a teacher indicates they are on the way out, the admin wants little if anything to do with them.[/i]
Each time that I have made a move from a school that I have worked at, my administrator has asked what schools I am looking at and what jobs are available. On each occasion, on hearing my response they have offered to contact a person they know at the school to let them know just to keep an eye out for my resume because I am someone that they should be looking at. Many others would have the similar story to tell I’m sure. It’s not guaranteeing you a job, but in the world of ‘who you know, rather than what you know’, I’m sure it helps. If you talk with experienced admin, they will tell you the same thing goes on when they are together for different events. Schools want to recruit good teachers, so why wouldn’t they be interested in hearing about a good teacher who is looking to move from their current school?
In regard to your own overwhelming experience of administrators brushing you off, that may have more to do with your own performance at the school’s you have left. Obviously, admin are going to advocate more for those that they see as strong teachers who would be a welcome addition to any school. Part of that will include some longevity at the school of at least a few years, which I understand is not your strongpoint.
My main point remains the same. Letting your admin know of your thinking, early in the school year, makes for a better process for everyone.
Firstly, a little background on myself. I am in my 16th year in the international schools world. I started at a large school in Asia, moved to Europe and am now back in Asia. All three of these schools I have seen described in threads on this forum as tier 1, elite or premier. Anyway you want to look at it, they are top schools. I offer this only so you get a sense of the experience that I bring to my comments.
PsyGuy, you are in fact a major reason that I have joined this forum. While there is lots of good advice being shared on these boards, unfortunately there is also reasonably high level of information that is shared as fact when actually it is not. I don’t claim to know everything about International Schools, but I know what I know and for too long I have read statements in this forum that I know to be factually incorrect. So I have been inspired to add my own 2 cents worth.
To your comments:
[i]Depending on the tier of school, not having any vacancies is more the norm. Elite schools can go a couples of years without having to recruit anyone at all. It would be rare for third tier schools to have no turnover but becomes quit common at the upper echelons.[/i]
See, this is what I am talking about. A person new to international schools might read this and actually believe that there are top level international schools that go a couple of years without having to recruit anyone. That is just not true. Please name for me one ‘elite’ international school that has not needed to hire a single teacher over a two year period?
[i]NO, it is not in anyway in the teachers favor having an early intent/notice date. Outside of Europe a notice or intent letter in early october and november is the same as a resignation. You dont get to go looking for a new and better position while having the security of your current position and school to fall back on if it doesnt work out. What do you think they are going to do just wait until May or June for you to decide if your staying or not?[/i]
Firstly, for most teachers, I would imagine that being offered a position at a school that they have applied to directly before the Christmas break would be much more desirable then having to go to a job fair. You may disagree with this, but it also seems to be the preferred option of every person I know who has been in the market for a new job. In order for this to happen, there needs to be jobs advertised. Therefore, having an earlier sign-on date, and in most cases, an even earlier indication of intent, provides the school with possible openings which they then post. More jobs posted earlier is good for teachers. For those that know they are leaving their current jobs, it is a chance for them to get a position before the break and avoid the fairs. For those that just want to test the waters, it gives them a chance to apply for a couple of things and if nothing comes from it in regard to an early offer, no harm done, they just sign on again at their current school.
Secondly, and again what you have said is factually incorrect, in many schools in Asia, certainly the ones I have worked for, and others I am very aware of, the process is for the teachers to be asked to sign a letter of intent, a month or so before they are required to sign their actual contracts. The letter of intent is non-binding, rather it is way of letting the school of your intentions so that they can plan their recruiting strategy. The timelines for these have changed in my time overseas, although currently it seems to be that the letters of intent are due around mid-October and the contracts themselves are due to be signed around December 1. That may vary from school to school, but it’s about right.
Going back to the point of my original post, the absolute best way for a teacher to go through this process is to talk with their admin early and let them know:
1 I will be signing on again.
2 I will be moving on, so I will not be signing a contract.
3 I’m happy here, but would like to just test the waters with a couple of positions. Should nothing come of those, I will be signing on again by the date contacts are due.
Some teachers worry that the last of these options is somehow disloyal to the their current school so it will be seen in a bad light. My view is that this is not the case. Admin expect people to consider all their options as they are coming up for contact renewal. What is seen in a bad light is saying number 1 and then actually pursuing number 3.
In regards to the original post, if you are testing the waters, it is absolutely OK to go to your admin and ask for an extension on that contact date of a week or two when they know that you are actually interviewing with a school. They might not grant it, however given that you have let them know early that you would be looking, they might even have posted your job as tentative and have already started to build a list of people that they wish to speak with about your job. Keeping people in the loop makes all of these processes much easier.
Given this process I have described, all contacts for the next school year will have been signed by returning teachers by mid-December. I hope this answers you question about May or June.
[i]If admins valued honesty, they would lbe more honest themselves. Have you even looked at the paid review side of this site? What admins want is to know all your cards while keeping theirs secret. I dont know and have ever experienced an admin that was so with one of their teachers professional lives that they actively advocated for their teachers in the job process at any fair or PTD event. The vastly overwhelming experience I have seen by admins is that as soon as a teacher indicates they are on the way out, the admin wants little if anything to do with them.[/i]
Each time that I have made a move from a school that I have worked at, my administrator has asked what schools I am looking at and what jobs are available. On each occasion, on hearing my response they have offered to contact a person they know at the school to let them know just to keep an eye out for my resume because I am someone that they should be looking at. Many others would have the similar story to tell I’m sure. It’s not guaranteeing you a job, but in the world of ‘who you know, rather than what you know’, I’m sure it helps. If you talk with experienced admin, they will tell you the same thing goes on when they are together for different events. Schools want to recruit good teachers, so why wouldn’t they be interested in hearing about a good teacher who is looking to move from their current school?
In regard to your own overwhelming experience of administrators brushing you off, that may have more to do with your own performance at the school’s you have left. Obviously, admin are going to advocate more for those that they see as strong teachers who would be a welcome addition to any school. Part of that will include some longevity at the school of at least a few years, which I understand is not your strongpoint.
My main point remains the same. Letting your admin know of your thinking, early in the school year, makes for a better process for everyone.
Discussion
@fine dude
I agree, the little european schools outside the capitols, schools most teachers and educators arent even aware they exist have some of the lowest turnover i have observed.
@Cyril
Hi walter, i mean Cyril, I see that despite being a long time reader you joined only very recently. Anyway, welcome to the forum. Its always welcome to receive a new contributor to the forum. This forum thrives and grows on new contributors and readers.
To begin with I have a long resume as well. You seem to suffer from a misconception of what facts are. Facts are events and phenomenon that are true for everyone in all scenarios and contingencies. The earth not being flat is a fact. Your conclusions that you draw from your experiences while perfectly valid are not facts they are qualified opinions. Your experiences do not invalidate mine or anyone else's experiences. What you have observed in what circumstance is not necessarily true for all occurrences.
There are top level schools that have gone a recruting year without needing to recruit. Can i think of any that have gone 2 consecutive years, not off the top of my head. Some that have gone at least a year include:
TASSIS (Switzerland)
ISB (Borne)
ASP (France)
ISP (France)
ASIJ (Japan)
OFS (Italy)
That's half a dozen, can prove that every IS in the world has recruited every year since the schools founding year for every IS in the world?
For the sake of discussion though lets assume your right and that in some manner or form every school has had to recruit at least someone. At what minimum of recruiting does it practically become zero? Even if a school has maternity cover or family leave hiring or long term substitutes, etc comparing the recruiting at top tier schools such as ISB doesnt compare with the recruiting needs of Yew Chung, unless your arguing that it is.
Some teachers would want an offer before Christmas break, thats not true ina number of cases. Too early of an offer forces the teacher to make a decision before they have competing offers, even if its a school they applied too. if a teacher applies to 10 schools (a low number) and their bottom 10 school comes back early in december with an offer, the teacher is in the position of having to pass on the offer hoping they get a better offer, or accepting the offer and having to decline a better offer at a later time. If going to a job fair would secure a position at one of their higher ranked schools (say their first ranked school) then many of them would rather go to the job fair.
Someone who really knows teachers over a number of years, such as 16, would know that what teachers really want is all their offers their going to get at one time laid out nice and neatly, and to have them all as early as possible. Thats what teachers REALLY want.
Your second response I find very troubling, and i find your response to it both deceptive and disingenuous. While you may have experienced schools (as have i) who ask for a non binding intent early in the year and a non binding contract soon after. My experiences differ in that the majority of schools including those in asia a letter/notice of intent is binding. Your declaration otherwise that this is a fact is in error, it is your experience and not a fact. This is a difference without distinction, and really sounds like an admins attempt at manipulation.
So what if the school asks for a non binding intent in october and a contract in early December as opposed to a binding letter/notice in late November. the final disposition is the same with at best a difference of a few days. Your spin on it in that regard is just marketing.
The teacher is still committed in either case to their present school before having an opportunity to explore their marketability during the peak of recruiting season. Teachers want to be able to go to a fair or apply to schools when those schools are actually hiring and recruiting, while having the security of being able to remain at their current school if they are unsuccessful in getting a better position. Dividing the resignation process into to document submission times is an artificial division of one process. This is better for the school as they get a better understanding of their hiring needs earlier, this isnt in the best interests of the teacher who is interested in a better position/school. What i find really deceptive is that such behavior is little more then word choice and name substitution. You could just as easily call your non binding notice a "Preliminary Notice of Resignation" or "Advance Notice of Vacancy" or any thing else and call the binding notice "Formal letter of Renewal" or "Official Confirmation of Continuance" or any other terms and titles you can imagine. They change nothing, the teacher is still required to submit to binding agreement early and before recruiting opportunities.
Of your three option (resign, remain, explore), i find your last one unrealistic and disingenuous. I know of no HOS that would permit a teacher to explore other unemployment options through out the school year. Whats the school and admin to do if you decide to leave in June? A top tier school could fill the position likely, but would have missed out on prime candidates. A lower tier school would have the same problem with finding candidates of equivalent caliber, and may even have to keep the position unfilled. Even if the admin would have more respect for the teacher that explored, they cant feasibly have the school bare the burden of an indecisive teacher. This is why teachers have to resort to renewing and then resigning, because the exploration option isnt a realistic option.
im glad you agree with me as i wrote earlier that its acceptable to ask for an extension with the understanding that the request may be denied. What i disagree with is the suggestion that as written above the school will just keep your position open for you while you explorer other opportunites. Admins and recruiters know that a definite position attracts more and better candidates, then a position that may not exist. No one wants to hold out late into the year for a position that may vanish and become available at the last minute. Top tier schools will still get applicants, but the many others including the rock star teachers cant rest their hopes on a position thats a big maybe. They will be applying to other schools and if offered an acceptable and attractive offer may take it, further reducing the applicants for the "tentative position".
Keeping everyone in the loop is good for the school, as I wrote they want to know all your plans while keeping their own secret.
Not all contracts are signed by early December. A number of european schools have very late contract renewal dates in late spring due labor regulations. Schools cant require a binding notice of intent any earlier then the mandated time period (typically 30-90 days before the last day of the contract).
It would seem we know different administrators, I know a lot of them. Again the paid side of this site is full of examples of teachers who were cut out of the loop and abandoned from their schools, with nothing more then a dont let the door hit you on the way out. Some admins have gone to truly vile lengths to ruin a teachers career just because they wanted to do nothing more then leave. I find your account of your administrator experience very unbelievable. Im sure it exists but im also sure angels exist too.
I agree, the little european schools outside the capitols, schools most teachers and educators arent even aware they exist have some of the lowest turnover i have observed.
@Cyril
Hi walter, i mean Cyril, I see that despite being a long time reader you joined only very recently. Anyway, welcome to the forum. Its always welcome to receive a new contributor to the forum. This forum thrives and grows on new contributors and readers.
To begin with I have a long resume as well. You seem to suffer from a misconception of what facts are. Facts are events and phenomenon that are true for everyone in all scenarios and contingencies. The earth not being flat is a fact. Your conclusions that you draw from your experiences while perfectly valid are not facts they are qualified opinions. Your experiences do not invalidate mine or anyone else's experiences. What you have observed in what circumstance is not necessarily true for all occurrences.
There are top level schools that have gone a recruting year without needing to recruit. Can i think of any that have gone 2 consecutive years, not off the top of my head. Some that have gone at least a year include:
TASSIS (Switzerland)
ISB (Borne)
ASP (France)
ISP (France)
ASIJ (Japan)
OFS (Italy)
That's half a dozen, can prove that every IS in the world has recruited every year since the schools founding year for every IS in the world?
For the sake of discussion though lets assume your right and that in some manner or form every school has had to recruit at least someone. At what minimum of recruiting does it practically become zero? Even if a school has maternity cover or family leave hiring or long term substitutes, etc comparing the recruiting at top tier schools such as ISB doesnt compare with the recruiting needs of Yew Chung, unless your arguing that it is.
Some teachers would want an offer before Christmas break, thats not true ina number of cases. Too early of an offer forces the teacher to make a decision before they have competing offers, even if its a school they applied too. if a teacher applies to 10 schools (a low number) and their bottom 10 school comes back early in december with an offer, the teacher is in the position of having to pass on the offer hoping they get a better offer, or accepting the offer and having to decline a better offer at a later time. If going to a job fair would secure a position at one of their higher ranked schools (say their first ranked school) then many of them would rather go to the job fair.
Someone who really knows teachers over a number of years, such as 16, would know that what teachers really want is all their offers their going to get at one time laid out nice and neatly, and to have them all as early as possible. Thats what teachers REALLY want.
Your second response I find very troubling, and i find your response to it both deceptive and disingenuous. While you may have experienced schools (as have i) who ask for a non binding intent early in the year and a non binding contract soon after. My experiences differ in that the majority of schools including those in asia a letter/notice of intent is binding. Your declaration otherwise that this is a fact is in error, it is your experience and not a fact. This is a difference without distinction, and really sounds like an admins attempt at manipulation.
So what if the school asks for a non binding intent in october and a contract in early December as opposed to a binding letter/notice in late November. the final disposition is the same with at best a difference of a few days. Your spin on it in that regard is just marketing.
The teacher is still committed in either case to their present school before having an opportunity to explore their marketability during the peak of recruiting season. Teachers want to be able to go to a fair or apply to schools when those schools are actually hiring and recruiting, while having the security of being able to remain at their current school if they are unsuccessful in getting a better position. Dividing the resignation process into to document submission times is an artificial division of one process. This is better for the school as they get a better understanding of their hiring needs earlier, this isnt in the best interests of the teacher who is interested in a better position/school. What i find really deceptive is that such behavior is little more then word choice and name substitution. You could just as easily call your non binding notice a "Preliminary Notice of Resignation" or "Advance Notice of Vacancy" or any thing else and call the binding notice "Formal letter of Renewal" or "Official Confirmation of Continuance" or any other terms and titles you can imagine. They change nothing, the teacher is still required to submit to binding agreement early and before recruiting opportunities.
Of your three option (resign, remain, explore), i find your last one unrealistic and disingenuous. I know of no HOS that would permit a teacher to explore other unemployment options through out the school year. Whats the school and admin to do if you decide to leave in June? A top tier school could fill the position likely, but would have missed out on prime candidates. A lower tier school would have the same problem with finding candidates of equivalent caliber, and may even have to keep the position unfilled. Even if the admin would have more respect for the teacher that explored, they cant feasibly have the school bare the burden of an indecisive teacher. This is why teachers have to resort to renewing and then resigning, because the exploration option isnt a realistic option.
im glad you agree with me as i wrote earlier that its acceptable to ask for an extension with the understanding that the request may be denied. What i disagree with is the suggestion that as written above the school will just keep your position open for you while you explorer other opportunites. Admins and recruiters know that a definite position attracts more and better candidates, then a position that may not exist. No one wants to hold out late into the year for a position that may vanish and become available at the last minute. Top tier schools will still get applicants, but the many others including the rock star teachers cant rest their hopes on a position thats a big maybe. They will be applying to other schools and if offered an acceptable and attractive offer may take it, further reducing the applicants for the "tentative position".
Keeping everyone in the loop is good for the school, as I wrote they want to know all your plans while keeping their own secret.
Not all contracts are signed by early December. A number of european schools have very late contract renewal dates in late spring due labor regulations. Schools cant require a binding notice of intent any earlier then the mandated time period (typically 30-90 days before the last day of the contract).
It would seem we know different administrators, I know a lot of them. Again the paid side of this site is full of examples of teachers who were cut out of the loop and abandoned from their schools, with nothing more then a dont let the door hit you on the way out. Some admins have gone to truly vile lengths to ruin a teachers career just because they wanted to do nothing more then leave. I find your account of your administrator experience very unbelievable. Im sure it exists but im also sure angels exist too.
Thanks for this, Cyril
I'd become bored correcting Dave Jaw's perpetual nonsense as encapsulated in this illiterate drivel:
"If admins valued honesty, they would lbe more honest themselves. Have you even looked at the paid review side of this site? What admins want is to know all your cards while keeping theirs secret. I dont know and have ever experienced an admin that was so with one of their teachers professional lives that they actively advocated for their teachers in the job process at any fair or PTD event. The vastly overwhelming experience I have seen by admins is that as soon as a teacher indicates they are on the way out, the admin wants little if anything to do with them."
1) Virtually all schools experience turnover. I was at recruitment fairs with heads from the very top schools in Asia and Europe last year, and all of them hired new teachers.
2) Good schools look after their departing teachers. For me it is important that a colleague who moves on from our school speaks well of us on the international circuit. Administrators here do their best for those who are going: we look through their latest versions of resumes; we contact administrators in schools in which they are interested; we give them our hotel room numbers at fairs for them to pass on to those with whom they are interviewing to facilitate a speedy reference check; we meet with them during fairs to check how they are doing and to see if we can help.
3) On the one hand, this is how colleagues should behave toward each other: supportive, helpful and trusting. On the other hand, it speaks to that notion of enlightened self-interest: after the fairs are over, departing teachers may have another five or six months at our school - how does it make sense for the school to have these teachers feeling resentful and miserable?
4) Of course you are entitled to your own warped view of teacher/administrator relations, but please do not present your sad opinions as facts.
5) All of which isn't to say that there aren't bad schools, bad administrators and bad teachers out there. It's helpful for everyone to join together to weed out those who shouldn't be in the profession. Your generic advice - to lie, deceive and doubt - hardly helps in all this.
"If admins valued honesty, they would lbe more honest themselves. Have you even looked at the paid review side of this site? What admins want is to know all your cards while keeping theirs secret. I dont know and have ever experienced an admin that was so with one of their teachers professional lives that they actively advocated for their teachers in the job process at any fair or PTD event. The vastly overwhelming experience I have seen by admins is that as soon as a teacher indicates they are on the way out, the admin wants little if anything to do with them."
1) Virtually all schools experience turnover. I was at recruitment fairs with heads from the very top schools in Asia and Europe last year, and all of them hired new teachers.
2) Good schools look after their departing teachers. For me it is important that a colleague who moves on from our school speaks well of us on the international circuit. Administrators here do their best for those who are going: we look through their latest versions of resumes; we contact administrators in schools in which they are interested; we give them our hotel room numbers at fairs for them to pass on to those with whom they are interviewing to facilitate a speedy reference check; we meet with them during fairs to check how they are doing and to see if we can help.
3) On the one hand, this is how colleagues should behave toward each other: supportive, helpful and trusting. On the other hand, it speaks to that notion of enlightened self-interest: after the fairs are over, departing teachers may have another five or six months at our school - how does it make sense for the school to have these teachers feeling resentful and miserable?
4) Of course you are entitled to your own warped view of teacher/administrator relations, but please do not present your sad opinions as facts.
5) All of which isn't to say that there aren't bad schools, bad administrators and bad teachers out there. It's helpful for everyone to join together to weed out those who shouldn't be in the profession. Your generic advice - to lie, deceive and doubt - hardly helps in all this.
-
wrldtrvlr123
- Posts: 1173
- Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
- Location: Japan
Re: Discussion
[quote="PsyGuyThere are top level schools that have gone a recruting year without needing to recruit. Can i think of any that have gone 2 consecutive years, not off the top of my head. Some that have gone at least a year include:
TASSIS (Switzerland)
ISB (Borne)
ASP (France)
ISP (France)
ASIJ (Japan)
OFS (Italy)
That's half a dozen, can prove that every IS in the world has recruited every year since the schools founding year for every IS in the world?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A year is probably closer to being accurate than your orginal post. Even there though, I don't completely accept your list (FWIW). ASIJ did recruit last year as I emailed one of my contacts there about one of the open positions. A couple of the others I seem to recall seeing on the job updates/fair list pretty much every year, but I certainly couldn't swear to it, much less prove it.
In any case, I hope you take the point that your original post was a bit of an over-reach.
I'm not sure that the pushing back of the deadlines to commit is a good thing for teachers. I think it compresses the hiring cycle which puts more pressure on teachers, which in turn leads to some decisions to jump on offers that are less than the best they could do/hope for. It's not even 2013 yet and some well qualified teachers are panicking and ready to take subpar offers just to lock something in.
I guess a case could be made that there are more high quality positions out there even earlier due to the compressed hiring cycle, but I have reservations about the whole thing.
We did give up a great position in hopes of a better situation for the family and in our case it worked out really well this time. On the other hand, in past years the same decision ended up with us living with my bro-in-law. So, it's always a gamble.
TASSIS (Switzerland)
ISB (Borne)
ASP (France)
ISP (France)
ASIJ (Japan)
OFS (Italy)
That's half a dozen, can prove that every IS in the world has recruited every year since the schools founding year for every IS in the world?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A year is probably closer to being accurate than your orginal post. Even there though, I don't completely accept your list (FWIW). ASIJ did recruit last year as I emailed one of my contacts there about one of the open positions. A couple of the others I seem to recall seeing on the job updates/fair list pretty much every year, but I certainly couldn't swear to it, much less prove it.
In any case, I hope you take the point that your original post was a bit of an over-reach.
I'm not sure that the pushing back of the deadlines to commit is a good thing for teachers. I think it compresses the hiring cycle which puts more pressure on teachers, which in turn leads to some decisions to jump on offers that are less than the best they could do/hope for. It's not even 2013 yet and some well qualified teachers are panicking and ready to take subpar offers just to lock something in.
I guess a case could be made that there are more high quality positions out there even earlier due to the compressed hiring cycle, but I have reservations about the whole thing.
We did give up a great position in hopes of a better situation for the family and in our case it worked out really well this time. On the other hand, in past years the same decision ended up with us living with my bro-in-law. So, it's always a gamble.