Shanghai top schools
Exactly right wntriscoming, Concordia is one of many top schools in Shanghai, and my view that Concordia is a top school has not changed. In fact, I said in the 4th comment of this thread that their decision to prefer Christian teachers only "Doesn't take away from it being a top school. It just means they won't consider me no matter how well qualified and experienced I am". I don't have a problem with that at all, even if I find the "Christian Only" type signs a bit closed minded.
I believe the view that a religious ethos somehow lowers their standing as a top school was offered by another poster.
In response to a definition of Christianity, if you ask Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses if they are Chrsitans they will tell you something along the lines of "A Christian is a follower of Christ, and we are followers of Christ, so yes, we are Christians". Whether "mainstream Christianity" recognises them or not is up to them, but that exaclty reinforces my point. Not all Christians are the same, so saying Christians Only, or that people must be a member of a church is vague. As the Mormons would say, they are from "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Mormons is more of a nickname).
Either way, I'm sure Concordia is a great school, and several people have even been motivated to write in to ISR saying so. If I decide to change my religion then I'll be sneding my resume in there double quick.
I believe the view that a religious ethos somehow lowers their standing as a top school was offered by another poster.
In response to a definition of Christianity, if you ask Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses if they are Chrsitans they will tell you something along the lines of "A Christian is a follower of Christ, and we are followers of Christ, so yes, we are Christians". Whether "mainstream Christianity" recognises them or not is up to them, but that exaclty reinforces my point. Not all Christians are the same, so saying Christians Only, or that people must be a member of a church is vague. As the Mormons would say, they are from "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Mormons is more of a nickname).
Either way, I'm sure Concordia is a great school, and several people have even been motivated to write in to ISR saying so. If I decide to change my religion then I'll be sneding my resume in there double quick.
Guys,
The bottom line is that these are private schools and they can have ANY HIRING REQUIREMENTS they want.
If you want more freedom go back to working in the U.S. and call the ACLU.
And for the record, a teacher at a Christian school who truly believes will be a better teacher, all other things being equal, than one who doesn't.
The bottom line is that these are private schools and they can have ANY HIRING REQUIREMENTS they want.
If you want more freedom go back to working in the U.S. and call the ACLU.
And for the record, a teacher at a Christian school who truly believes will be a better teacher, all other things being equal, than one who doesn't.
Comment
We actually understand that they are independent schools and can have any requirements they pretty much want. The issue is whether they should, and if their decision effects the quality and work environment of the school for a teacher.
Re: Shanghai top schools
I know this is a really an old thread but I thought I'd try my luck. How competitive are these school anyway? Can a teacher with 2 years of experience obtain a position at schools like these? TIA
-
shadowjack
- Posts: 2140
- Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:49 am
Re: Shanghai top schools
Agreed 2 - if people can get struck by lightning, or win the lottery, people with 2 years experience can obtain a spot. You'll never win the lottery, though, if you don't buy a ticket and you'll never get struck by lighting if you stay indoors all the time!
Re: Shanghai top schools
A former colleague of mine who worked for Teach for America was hired by a top-tier school in SE Asia, but he did his undergrad from Dartmouth and he too had 2 years of exp. This might be an exception to the rule, but if you have done something disruptive in the classroom (created a learning app, trained kids for International Olympiads, got your students research published in journals), there is no reason why I'dn't hire you. You could get hired even without all of this on your CV and all it takes is one interview where you knock their socks off.
Reply
@agreed2
I use to use absolute terms on this site when replying to posts, "always, never, etc." but then Id see something that would see it happen. Nothing surprises me anymore, and an entry class IT with 2 years experience and little else getting an appointment at a first tier ISs isnt even in the category of 'strange' or 'unheard of'. Its one of those rare events that almost everyone has a story about.
@SJ
You can be struck by lightning indoors.
I use to use absolute terms on this site when replying to posts, "always, never, etc." but then Id see something that would see it happen. Nothing surprises me anymore, and an entry class IT with 2 years experience and little else getting an appointment at a first tier ISs isnt even in the category of 'strange' or 'unheard of'. Its one of those rare events that almost everyone has a story about.
@SJ
You can be struck by lightning indoors.
Re: Shanghai top schools
Any updated list of Tier 1/2 for Shanghai considering new schools?
Reply
@wilcoman
No, new ISs dont start at the top or the middle of the tier hierarchy they start at the bottom. Its an almost insurmountable task breaking into the first tier, and the second tier takes a huge amount of coin and resources resulting in highly positive outcomes to break into the second tier.
No, new ISs dont start at the top or the middle of the tier hierarchy they start at the bottom. Its an almost insurmountable task breaking into the first tier, and the second tier takes a huge amount of coin and resources resulting in highly positive outcomes to break into the second tier.
Re: Reply
PsyGuy wrote:
> @wilcoman
>
> No, new ISs dont start at the top or the middle of the tier hierarchy they
> start at the bottom.
Would you say there are, however, ways to jumpstart that?
Concordia Shanghai has been mentioned on this thread. Concordia Hanoi is new but has built up a reputation very quickly. That link seems to have made the teething troubles much smoother than in most start-up schools. I know friends who have moved there from tier 1 schools and they rave about the place. Again though, it has the Christian values like their Shanghai sister school.
I'd say Concordia is not a tier 1 for me because of the Christian values bit. However, it would certainly be so for a committed Christian teacher. They are objectively excellent schools if you take out that Christian part with great packages, facilities and international renown. I wouldn't work there, but then I wouldn't work in schools in some ME countries because I'd have to adhere by local laws. I'm not sure it's a massive difference...if the school or the location demands certain behaviours that are free in the west but restricted or illegal there, then it's a no go for me. So for me, Concordia isn't a tier 1 nor is AS Dubai. For others, it would fill all the boxes if that one aspect wasn't an issue.
> @wilcoman
>
> No, new ISs dont start at the top or the middle of the tier hierarchy they
> start at the bottom.
Would you say there are, however, ways to jumpstart that?
Concordia Shanghai has been mentioned on this thread. Concordia Hanoi is new but has built up a reputation very quickly. That link seems to have made the teething troubles much smoother than in most start-up schools. I know friends who have moved there from tier 1 schools and they rave about the place. Again though, it has the Christian values like their Shanghai sister school.
I'd say Concordia is not a tier 1 for me because of the Christian values bit. However, it would certainly be so for a committed Christian teacher. They are objectively excellent schools if you take out that Christian part with great packages, facilities and international renown. I wouldn't work there, but then I wouldn't work in schools in some ME countries because I'd have to adhere by local laws. I'm not sure it's a massive difference...if the school or the location demands certain behaviours that are free in the west but restricted or illegal there, then it's a no go for me. So for me, Concordia isn't a tier 1 nor is AS Dubai. For others, it would fill all the boxes if that one aspect wasn't an issue.
Reply
@MartElla
Its possible for an IS to accelerate their movement through the tiers, but in practice I dont see it happen. First, 1st tier ISs are incredibly stable and their number is incredibly small, the second tier is easier, but that leads me too my second point. Second, there are factors to an ISs tier that just take time, you cant form institutional identity on day go. If you cant do that how do you compare the IS to meeting its ethos? How do you get stable performance from day go? Theres a trend for newly forming third tier ISs to partner with an established DS and borrow their prestige, and while that works with the marketing and advertising too parents it does little if anything for ITs. There is also a faction of contributors with the position that tier status is all comp and working environment, how much coin, how sweet of an OSH package, how many preps, how many hours. Thats a very simple model. Theres also the fallacy that liking something means quality. Ive written this before, you can be an IT that loves your third tier IS, it fits you well and checks all your boxes, but its still a third tier IS.
What I typically see is an IS that throws a big budget at staffing and payroll and thinks they can buy their way into higher tiers, and it doesnt work, you dont get to skip growing pains. These ISs can move from the sinkers at the bottom of the third tier to the floaters at the top of the barrel but then they hit the tier wall, and crossing that threshold is just isnt something you can bogart or mergers and acquisitions your way through.
Its possible for an IS to accelerate their movement through the tiers, but in practice I dont see it happen. First, 1st tier ISs are incredibly stable and their number is incredibly small, the second tier is easier, but that leads me too my second point. Second, there are factors to an ISs tier that just take time, you cant form institutional identity on day go. If you cant do that how do you compare the IS to meeting its ethos? How do you get stable performance from day go? Theres a trend for newly forming third tier ISs to partner with an established DS and borrow their prestige, and while that works with the marketing and advertising too parents it does little if anything for ITs. There is also a faction of contributors with the position that tier status is all comp and working environment, how much coin, how sweet of an OSH package, how many preps, how many hours. Thats a very simple model. Theres also the fallacy that liking something means quality. Ive written this before, you can be an IT that loves your third tier IS, it fits you well and checks all your boxes, but its still a third tier IS.
What I typically see is an IS that throws a big budget at staffing and payroll and thinks they can buy their way into higher tiers, and it doesnt work, you dont get to skip growing pains. These ISs can move from the sinkers at the bottom of the third tier to the floaters at the top of the barrel but then they hit the tier wall, and crossing that threshold is just isnt something you can bogart or mergers and acquisitions your way through.
Re: Shanghai top schools
Then again the entire tier discussion is theoretical so does it really matter what one person thinks anyway? Christian values might make a school more preferable to one teacher than another, just like any quality might make any school more preferable to one teacher than another. If you are interested in living in Shanghai there are a number of good schools that fill the same checkboxes, and other checkboxes that the other schools don't. It doesn't mean they are better or worse, just different.
Discussion
Sounds like a leadership/ownership tiers dont exist, so tiers dont matter,every IS is special and so every IS is top tier in its own way. Utter bunk.
Re: Shanghai top schools
Only because you made those criteria up in your own mind. I have taught at a number of schools, some of which would not meet your selective criteria for a Tier 1 and yet it met my needs perfectly at the time. I am now at a school that meets all YOUR criteria (and its far from perfect) for a tier 1 and its meeting my needs, but it wouldn't have 20 years ago . Your criteria are exactly that, yours and nobody else's. If it works for you then more power to you but to judge other teachers' choices based on those same criteria is crap.