Hi, wondering if you can suggest which country would be beneficial for me, I am new to the international market, but have 12 years teaching experience and I have spent a lot of time traveling Asia. I am a single teacher primary.
Also how are the schools at integrating teachers into the schools social life, I would hate to be alone when not at work!
Laos vis , Cambodia, or Thailand
More Information
Easy question first:, each school is differnet as far as how tight they are as a community. Generally the more secluded and remote the school is the closer people are, as they depend on each other more socially. In metro/cosmopolitan cities people have more of a commuter mentality. They go to work, they go home, and they do outside things. You also get more of a community feeling at schools with younger, meaning new teachers, they simply dont have a social system to go home to after work. Schools which have a heavier older faculty where everyone has their own families tend to do more their own thing.
Thats a pretty broad open ended question, beneficial in what way?
Off the cuff Id say Thailand, as their are simply more schools.
Thats a pretty broad open ended question, beneficial in what way?
Off the cuff Id say Thailand, as their are simply more schools.
If i set my focus to schools in Thailand , do you think I can initially go for a tier 1 school?
I teach at a prestigious Independent school in Melbourne. I have been there for 8 years. I am a single male primary teacher, I have held various positions of leadership, such as year level coordinator, head of humanities, social service coordinator.
I also hold an EU passport... so should I consider Europe as well?
thanks
I teach at a prestigious Independent school in Melbourne. I have been there for 8 years. I am a single male primary teacher, I have held various positions of leadership, such as year level coordinator, head of humanities, social service coordinator.
I also hold an EU passport... so should I consider Europe as well?
thanks
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lifeisnotsobad
- Posts: 133
- Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 3:37 pm
Scowell - don't pay too much attention to Sigh Guy. You are a single, male primary teacher who has held positions of responsibility. There are relatively few of you around. I would suggest that you will be a strong candidate and would certainly get yourself interviews. What happens at this point will of course be dependant on you. Incidentally, the Director of NIST is an Aussie from Melbourne who has previously worked in Geelong, so having a prestigious independent school in Melbourne on your CV will certainly do you no harm.
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FromPhilly
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:56 am
- Location: UK
[quote="Scowell"]If i set my focus to schools in Thailand , do you think I can initially go for a tier 1 school?
I teach at a prestigious Independent school in Melbourne. I have been there for 8 years. I am a single male primary teacher, I have held various positions of leadership, such as year level coordinator, head of humanities, social service coordinator.
I also hold an EU passport... so should I consider Europe as well?
thanks[/quote]
Brother - personally, from what I have seen the hiring Fairs, I think most schools, good schools, in S E Asia will salivate when you meander over to their table... single, male, Australian AND primary? you're one of those rare beings.
And, again from what I have seen, you will do pretty darn good in Asia. I mean, on the personal tip. dont think you'll be 'alone after work." for real, for real.
ignore the various know it alls on this forum, and stroll on over to whatever table/school you want to interview at. be encouraged! best wishes.
ps: if you ever make it to se asia, give me a shout! :)
I teach at a prestigious Independent school in Melbourne. I have been there for 8 years. I am a single male primary teacher, I have held various positions of leadership, such as year level coordinator, head of humanities, social service coordinator.
I also hold an EU passport... so should I consider Europe as well?
thanks[/quote]
Brother - personally, from what I have seen the hiring Fairs, I think most schools, good schools, in S E Asia will salivate when you meander over to their table... single, male, Australian AND primary? you're one of those rare beings.
And, again from what I have seen, you will do pretty darn good in Asia. I mean, on the personal tip. dont think you'll be 'alone after work." for real, for real.
ignore the various know it alls on this forum, and stroll on over to whatever table/school you want to interview at. be encouraged! best wishes.
ps: if you ever make it to se asia, give me a shout! :)
Sorry
Being a male primary teacher as some sort of bennificial rarity in Asia is a myth. Many parents prefer their little ones have female teachers. It's not the bonus it is in the west. Primary whoever you are is still primary, and has saturated demand. The reality is many schools hold primary positions for teaching couples.
I think you will get a number of good offers, I just don't see the first tier schools jumping after you, that's not to say it won't happen, it wouldn't be unheard of, I just won't bet money on it. You should certainly visit whatever tables you want, you never know if you don't try.
You shouldn't have any reason to be alone in many parts of Asia if you don't want to.
I think you will get a number of good offers, I just don't see the first tier schools jumping after you, that's not to say it won't happen, it wouldn't be unheard of, I just won't bet money on it. You should certainly visit whatever tables you want, you never know if you don't try.
You shouldn't have any reason to be alone in many parts of Asia if you don't want to.
thanks for your repsonses... actually a friend of mine recommended NIST so i will keep an eye out for jobs there. I will be attending the Melbourne search fair and as yet there doesnt seem to be a thai school attending but I guess things change, also there are a few schools of interest coming.
In oz beign a male primary school is a huge advantage, so i was hoping it woudl be the same. In saying that in the independent system here the male ratio is much better than the state system.
Can anyone advise if you accept the salary and benefits or you can negotiate? We are used to negotioating our package in the independent system here. Dont want to make a fool out of myself..
Also any schools to focus on? or stay clear of?
In oz beign a male primary school is a huge advantage, so i was hoping it woudl be the same. In saying that in the independent system here the male ratio is much better than the state system.
Can anyone advise if you accept the salary and benefits or you can negotiate? We are used to negotioating our package in the independent system here. Dont want to make a fool out of myself..
Also any schools to focus on? or stay clear of?
Advice
I realize the Melbourne fair is close and convenient for you, but it would not be a good choice for you. You need to go to the Bangkok fair a few days later, that's the fair to go to, and it would be more costly, but it's far more likely to pay off for you. It really, really would be worth the investment.
In The western countries being a male primary teacher is an advantage, but it's not in Asia. Parents prefer a maternal, female teacher in a primary classroom.
You absolutely can and should negotiate your salary and compensation package. Many of the better schools will have a set step scale, but you can negotiate depending on your resume, what step you should be placed at. Typically it's a grid with years experience and degree, but you can successfully negotiate an extra step or two for outside education experience, leadership experience and multiple certifications, etc.. In addition to the typical issues of salary, housing, airfare, relocation expenses, and visa costs, be sure to discuss in writing your contact hours and teaching hours, as well as taxes.
In The western countries being a male primary teacher is an advantage, but it's not in Asia. Parents prefer a maternal, female teacher in a primary classroom.
You absolutely can and should negotiate your salary and compensation package. Many of the better schools will have a set step scale, but you can negotiate depending on your resume, what step you should be placed at. Typically it's a grid with years experience and degree, but you can successfully negotiate an extra step or two for outside education experience, leadership experience and multiple certifications, etc.. In addition to the typical issues of salary, housing, airfare, relocation expenses, and visa costs, be sure to discuss in writing your contact hours and teaching hours, as well as taxes.
So you dont think making direct contact with schools in Thailand will pay off?
DO you know any schools in Thailand or SE asia that i should apply to or avoid?
Thanks for the info regarding the contract, good to know as it is quite difficult to know how the system works. Do most schools try and put single people into share accomodation?
There also seems to be quite an interesting school in Yangon , Myanmar, that appeals to me.
DO you know any schools in Thailand or SE asia that i should apply to or avoid?
Thanks for the info regarding the contract, good to know as it is quite difficult to know how the system works. Do most schools try and put single people into share accomodation?
There also seems to be quite an interesting school in Yangon , Myanmar, that appeals to me.
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FromPhilly
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:56 am
- Location: UK
[quote="Scowell"]So you dont think making direct contact with schools in Thailand will pay off?
DO you know any schools in Thailand or SE asia that i should apply to or avoid?
Thanks for the info regarding the contract, good to know as it is quite difficult to know how the system works. Do most schools try and put single people into share accomodation?
There also seems to be quite an interesting school in Yangon , Myanmar, that appeals to me.[/quote]
If this is your first foray into international teaching, I would recommend registering with a recruitment agency. All of these specific questions will be addressed and you will have one central file, which will be used to apply to each school.
At the risk of elicitng howls of derision and so forth, I recommend Search. I have been using them since 2005 and have been pleased.
Try Bangkok. You will do well there, I'm sure.
DO you know any schools in Thailand or SE asia that i should apply to or avoid?
Thanks for the info regarding the contract, good to know as it is quite difficult to know how the system works. Do most schools try and put single people into share accomodation?
There also seems to be quite an interesting school in Yangon , Myanmar, that appeals to me.[/quote]
If this is your first foray into international teaching, I would recommend registering with a recruitment agency. All of these specific questions will be addressed and you will have one central file, which will be used to apply to each school.
At the risk of elicitng howls of derision and so forth, I recommend Search. I have been using them since 2005 and have been pleased.
Try Bangkok. You will do well there, I'm sure.
Reply
I really dont want to start a whole asia list on which schools are good and which are bad. This thread would explode, and all youd really get is some general consensus on a few elite schools, and a lot of disagreement on the rest (wed argue whether ISb or WAB was first, for example).
Oh contacting schools directly is an absolute necessity, there is no reason to wait until the fairs. You should be contacting schools as soon as vacancies for a school your interested in post. This will help you set up interviews in advance of the fair, but even more importantly secure an offer before the fair begins, which is pretty common (a number of vacancies vanish the night before the big fairs begin).
While many teachers are successful at the fairs, far many more are hired directly by schools either after a Skype (video) or telephone interview. for many teachers the fair is less a function to be hired at, and more an opportunity to sit down and interview face to face with a school. A significant number of teachers will interview for a school in January, not get an offer until much later in the year as the end of the school year closes. this is particularly true for european schools that have to wait until around May to find out what additional vacancies they have.
Only the bottom tier schools will try to put single teachers into shared housing. Id see any school that attempts to do so as a big warning sign. Most schools in Asia are about evenly split between offering housing directly, and a housing allowance. A number of schools give you the option, and in some of those schools your first year on contract you have to take the provided housing (unless they dont have suitable housing available), and may choose an allowance after your first year.
he bargaining table is where you ask for and get what you want. Once the contract is signed, it would be poor form, unprofessional, and even offensive to come back and attempt to negotiate for additional compensation again (sometimes this can be done, for instance if airfare dramatically spikes, or in regard to housing your family size increases for instance).
Schools generally have two approaches to compensation either they have a 1) Public/Open pay scale/salary ladder, etc. In which case the school determines the contributing factors (usually years of experience and degree level) and your salary is what ever that box says. There can be adjustments/supplements for extra duty assignments, etc. The point of this scale is that everyone with a certain category makes the same. Its "equal" if not fair (fair in my opinion is actually pretty subjective). This is a lot like the "no hassle" car dealership. The price is clearly published and thats just "how much it is".
In the second type 2): Negotiated/Closed (Private tends to be avoided, but still used) you negotiate or discuss a compensation package. This can take several forms in itself, the two most common are the face to face negotiation, usually over the phone or Skype where you politely try to sell your value to the head, and they try to get you as cheaply as possible. The second most common type is the "letter" type which either occurs with the head, or more often with HR, and involves a series of email exchanges. Where they make an initial offer, you counter offer, they "check with the boss" then they counteroffer, and back an forth until you stop seeing progress/change in the offers happening. This experience is a lot more like the traditional "used car" buy experience, where your essentially haggling.
In my experience the open/public approach is the most popular, for two reasons (and different situations). The better schools are interested in fairness, equality and simplicity, its makes payroll easier (especially at bigger schools, which also tend to be the better schools). The second reason, is in schools that really dont care about the quality of their teachers, and they just want the cheapest body in the classroom they can get. They know they pay peanuts, and they dont really care, because anyone whos a decent teacher wouldnt teach there anyway, and likely has better offers.
The Closed/negotiated salary scale is usually found at 2nd tier schools all over the globe, who are usually young schools, have small enrollments, or constant turn around in faculty. For them minimizing costs is very important, as many teachers simply dont stay longer then their initial two year contract before moving on, so investing in faculty is a lost cause for them. Lastly, they just have more of a "paycheck to paycheck" mentality, they dont know what their enrollment will be in the future and with a small school it doesnt take much change in enrollment before they are over budget. For them a good teacher at less cost is better then a great teacher who is more expensive.
My advice to teachers, is that if there is nothing special about your qualifications, then you want the open/public type of compensation determination. If you have something thats special or "adds real value" (not to be confused with perceived value, like your "just a super great teacher") then your likely to benefit from a closed/negotiated compensation package, since the assumption is that you bring more "value" to the table then a comparable teacher.
Trends i see, is that when it comes to closed/negotiated packages, woman tend to get the face to face approach (typically against an assertive male), on the assumption that woman are less comfortable with conflict, and will cave to negotiation stress quickly (there are a couple heads ive met who were proven VERY incorrect in that assumption). Men tend to get the letter exchange typically with what you would infer is a younger female contact at the schools HR department. The assumption that the intermediary (the HR contact) is just the messenger, and little old them has no power to do anything, except relay your demands to the boss. men tend to be less aggressive, in those situation, as they are indoctrinated to yield ld to the female gender, and to exercise restraint when confronted with an inferior opponent.
Oh contacting schools directly is an absolute necessity, there is no reason to wait until the fairs. You should be contacting schools as soon as vacancies for a school your interested in post. This will help you set up interviews in advance of the fair, but even more importantly secure an offer before the fair begins, which is pretty common (a number of vacancies vanish the night before the big fairs begin).
While many teachers are successful at the fairs, far many more are hired directly by schools either after a Skype (video) or telephone interview. for many teachers the fair is less a function to be hired at, and more an opportunity to sit down and interview face to face with a school. A significant number of teachers will interview for a school in January, not get an offer until much later in the year as the end of the school year closes. this is particularly true for european schools that have to wait until around May to find out what additional vacancies they have.
Only the bottom tier schools will try to put single teachers into shared housing. Id see any school that attempts to do so as a big warning sign. Most schools in Asia are about evenly split between offering housing directly, and a housing allowance. A number of schools give you the option, and in some of those schools your first year on contract you have to take the provided housing (unless they dont have suitable housing available), and may choose an allowance after your first year.
he bargaining table is where you ask for and get what you want. Once the contract is signed, it would be poor form, unprofessional, and even offensive to come back and attempt to negotiate for additional compensation again (sometimes this can be done, for instance if airfare dramatically spikes, or in regard to housing your family size increases for instance).
Schools generally have two approaches to compensation either they have a 1) Public/Open pay scale/salary ladder, etc. In which case the school determines the contributing factors (usually years of experience and degree level) and your salary is what ever that box says. There can be adjustments/supplements for extra duty assignments, etc. The point of this scale is that everyone with a certain category makes the same. Its "equal" if not fair (fair in my opinion is actually pretty subjective). This is a lot like the "no hassle" car dealership. The price is clearly published and thats just "how much it is".
In the second type 2): Negotiated/Closed (Private tends to be avoided, but still used) you negotiate or discuss a compensation package. This can take several forms in itself, the two most common are the face to face negotiation, usually over the phone or Skype where you politely try to sell your value to the head, and they try to get you as cheaply as possible. The second most common type is the "letter" type which either occurs with the head, or more often with HR, and involves a series of email exchanges. Where they make an initial offer, you counter offer, they "check with the boss" then they counteroffer, and back an forth until you stop seeing progress/change in the offers happening. This experience is a lot more like the traditional "used car" buy experience, where your essentially haggling.
In my experience the open/public approach is the most popular, for two reasons (and different situations). The better schools are interested in fairness, equality and simplicity, its makes payroll easier (especially at bigger schools, which also tend to be the better schools). The second reason, is in schools that really dont care about the quality of their teachers, and they just want the cheapest body in the classroom they can get. They know they pay peanuts, and they dont really care, because anyone whos a decent teacher wouldnt teach there anyway, and likely has better offers.
The Closed/negotiated salary scale is usually found at 2nd tier schools all over the globe, who are usually young schools, have small enrollments, or constant turn around in faculty. For them minimizing costs is very important, as many teachers simply dont stay longer then their initial two year contract before moving on, so investing in faculty is a lost cause for them. Lastly, they just have more of a "paycheck to paycheck" mentality, they dont know what their enrollment will be in the future and with a small school it doesnt take much change in enrollment before they are over budget. For them a good teacher at less cost is better then a great teacher who is more expensive.
My advice to teachers, is that if there is nothing special about your qualifications, then you want the open/public type of compensation determination. If you have something thats special or "adds real value" (not to be confused with perceived value, like your "just a super great teacher") then your likely to benefit from a closed/negotiated compensation package, since the assumption is that you bring more "value" to the table then a comparable teacher.
Trends i see, is that when it comes to closed/negotiated packages, woman tend to get the face to face approach (typically against an assertive male), on the assumption that woman are less comfortable with conflict, and will cave to negotiation stress quickly (there are a couple heads ive met who were proven VERY incorrect in that assumption). Men tend to get the letter exchange typically with what you would infer is a younger female contact at the schools HR department. The assumption that the intermediary (the HR contact) is just the messenger, and little old them has no power to do anything, except relay your demands to the boss. men tend to be less aggressive, in those situation, as they are indoctrinated to yield ld to the female gender, and to exercise restraint when confronted with an inferior opponent.
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overseasvet2
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:50 pm
male elementary teacher
As an experienced, male primary teacher you would be very competative for top international schools in Asia (or elsewhere). You are part of a rare breed and schools really like having the balance. The game changes if you're looking for a local school.
Search is as good as any of the recruitment agencies. The only thing they do is connect job seekers and schools. Don't expect anyone to help you land the job - it's all about your experiences, your references and how you present yourself. We tend to sign up with both, despite the expense, so that we have access to both databases and then only attend one of the fairs.
If your goal is a top school, the salaries, benefits, etc are non-negotiable. They have to be transparent and are pretty up front about what you are signing up for.
Good luck!
Search is as good as any of the recruitment agencies. The only thing they do is connect job seekers and schools. Don't expect anyone to help you land the job - it's all about your experiences, your references and how you present yourself. We tend to sign up with both, despite the expense, so that we have access to both databases and then only attend one of the fairs.
If your goal is a top school, the salaries, benefits, etc are non-negotiable. They have to be transparent and are pretty up front about what you are signing up for.
Good luck!
Agreement
I agree I recommend Search for a first timer (the other big agencies arent likely to take much interest in you either). I also recommend a smaller service like TIE.
People report different experiences with Search and with agencies in general, some have associates that are very helpful, and responsive, some just collect their checks. What your paying for is access to the schools and jobs database, and the fairs. Its not like a "head hunter" or executive recruitment firm.
As far as which fair, you should aim for one of the three big ones in order: Bangkok, London, Boston. If you can get an invite to the Search Bangkok fair you should go if at all possible.
I disagree that you cant negotiate with the top schools. While true you cant negotiate salary directly (they are open/transparent after all), you can negotiate what step on the salary scale your worth. So while step 5 might be $50K and step 6 might be $53K, you cant say "well my average salary has been $53K, and i want step 6", what you can say is "I have a number of certifications and experience teaching those subjects outside of the primary focus your hiring for, and would be of great utility in reducing scheduling challenges and offer real value to the school, can we consider an increase in step?" If you can bridge a number of those arguments together and some point (depending on the school, and as long as they are agreeing), your very likely to get the extra step increase.
All said the elite schools offer some of the most generous contracts and thats why they are in a marked category above other tier 1 schools, mainly because there is a significant (not just linear) increase in compensation, etc at these schools.
People report different experiences with Search and with agencies in general, some have associates that are very helpful, and responsive, some just collect their checks. What your paying for is access to the schools and jobs database, and the fairs. Its not like a "head hunter" or executive recruitment firm.
As far as which fair, you should aim for one of the three big ones in order: Bangkok, London, Boston. If you can get an invite to the Search Bangkok fair you should go if at all possible.
I disagree that you cant negotiate with the top schools. While true you cant negotiate salary directly (they are open/transparent after all), you can negotiate what step on the salary scale your worth. So while step 5 might be $50K and step 6 might be $53K, you cant say "well my average salary has been $53K, and i want step 6", what you can say is "I have a number of certifications and experience teaching those subjects outside of the primary focus your hiring for, and would be of great utility in reducing scheduling challenges and offer real value to the school, can we consider an increase in step?" If you can bridge a number of those arguments together and some point (depending on the school, and as long as they are agreeing), your very likely to get the extra step increase.
All said the elite schools offer some of the most generous contracts and thats why they are in a marked category above other tier 1 schools, mainly because there is a significant (not just linear) increase in compensation, etc at these schools.