I broke contact 5 years ago with a job I got through a major fair/agency. I gave them 90 days notice before the first day of school. I paid for the plane ticket, visa fees, and the agency penality. It cost me almost 4K total. I had to break due to personal issues. They were pissed and I was told I would be blacklisted worldwide by both the school and service. I haven't used the service again for obvious reasons.
I've found a few jobs since then, including my current school which is a dream in every way. My current school uses that agency and now that I feel comfortable with my boss I asked him if there is a list that is passed to the subscribed schools. He told me there wasn't and that the only way he knows of rotten apples is through his fellow heads in the region. He says he does in-depth checks on the past three schools, not just paper, but through conversations with the heads.
I was nervous when I first broke and thought I was doomed, but now it's in the past and I haven't a care in the world about it.
"Blacklisted"
Nope
Now youve escalated to threatening my creditability, what will i do if you strip me of the last of it, if i dont do what Im told???
No Im very right here, Im very open to other opinions and points of view, but you cant talk a lie into being the truth. The "black list" is a myth, thats not an opinion.
The only thing needed for evil to win is for good people to do nothing, I will not be standing aside while you peddle your fear stories.
Thats the insidiousness of this kind of myth, all the proponents of it do is to claim that its a secret and of course your head couldnt or wouldnt tell you about it....
No Im very right here, Im very open to other opinions and points of view, but you cant talk a lie into being the truth. The "black list" is a myth, thats not an opinion.
The only thing needed for evil to win is for good people to do nothing, I will not be standing aside while you peddle your fear stories.
Thats the insidiousness of this kind of myth, all the proponents of it do is to claim that its a secret and of course your head couldnt or wouldnt tell you about it....
Not really
Its not an opinion if its true, and there is no black list. Im not interested in convincing you. Your claim that their is not isnt an opinion. Only one of our claims can be true, the other MUST be false,a s they are mutually exclusive.
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emilysue1212
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:55 pm
- Location: Colorado
That was fun! Thanks for the entertainment. Now I'm going to poke the sleeping giant just to see what he does: so IF we agree that there is not GLOBAL blacklist, what about a REGIONAL blacklist? And I'm not sure I agree with you that a blacklist has to be written down somewhere, any more than a constitution has to be written to be real. Heads talking to each other about individuals they would not recommend hiring DOES, for most of us I think, constitute a functional blacklist.
There. Now pass that popcorn please!
There. Now pass that popcorn please!
I only started reading this site while on the recruitment circuit. Some of the things that are written are so funny and so wrong, and you are right to be dubious about the many and varied opinions of Mr Psy.
a. He said that there were new arrangements at the SEARCH Cambridge Fair with a double sign-up session and that recruiters and candidates were under too much time pressure. FALSE. I have been recruiting at SEARCH for many years, and I can't remember when there wasn't a double sign-up session. And I can't think of any other change from previous practice. We recruiters weren't advised of any. Meanwhile, two hours is more than ample time for most candidates to see the schools they need. Most recruiters leave before the end of the session because they have done. Incidentally, this year there were evening sign up sessions at two of the big fairs to leave full interview days to follow. More fairs will do this next year.
b. He said that very few school heads attended SEARCH Cambridge, instead preferring to go to UNI. FALSE. I was at Cambridge and, as always, saw most of my colleagues and peers from the top schools at the various evening receptions. Some heads do have a longstanding allegiance to UNI, but they a minority. Some other heads - often from schools in Central and South America also attend Iowa because they can't compete in salary terms with the premier league schools that attend Cambridge - and by and large these top schools will be represented by heads.
c. He said that IS schools worldwide are seeing falling enrolment. This is really FALSE. A recent TIE survey indicated that 90+% of international schools surveyed had seen at least mild or moderate growth. The International Schools Consultancy - another independent body - continues with its estimation of 7% annual growth in students attending international schools.
d. He said that Bangkok was always the veterans fair, and Cambridge was for newbies. FALSE. SEARCH Bangkok has only been going for seven years and ISS Bangkok for eight so the word "always" makes no sense. Inevitably, though, you will get more experienced international teachers at the Bangkok fairs, because most of those who attend are presently teaching at schools on the Asian circuit. At the London fairs you get a lot of UK teachers trying to get onto the international scene, and at the US fairs you get a lot of US teachers trying to do the same thing. This has ALWAYS been true.
e. There were no schools from Denmark at SEARCH Cambridge and ISS Boston.
However, in one key area Mr Psy is correct. There is no official blacklist of teachers held in secret by school heads. I have been recruiting teachers for nearly thirty years and believe me I would know. School heads read references on the files, conduct their interviews and wherever possible will contact a colleague head whom they trust and who is at the same fair - and thus only an internal phone call away. All of us are busy and the only question we have time for is "Would you hire this teacher again? Usually the answer is yes or no. Sometimes it is more nuanced, which may mean another interview and more conversations with referees. As for actively trying to block a teacher from getting hired again elsewhere - well there are a couple of names I look for when I attend fairs and would alert colleagues if I saw them on the list, because I think they are dangerous to students. Occasionally I see notes on head.net saying if anyone is approached by Mr X for a job at their school, please contact me. I presume that those people are also perceived to be a danger to students. On two occasions, teachers have backed out of contracts for what seem spurious reasons. I find that to be totally unprofessional, and in both cases I have called the recruiting agency and made a formal complaint, but I don't have the time or energy to try to do anything else. However, if someone told me that an applicant had backed out of a contract elsewhere, that would be a big blackmark. My guess is that most school heads feel the same.
I am happy to answer any other recruitment myths.
Walter
a. He said that there were new arrangements at the SEARCH Cambridge Fair with a double sign-up session and that recruiters and candidates were under too much time pressure. FALSE. I have been recruiting at SEARCH for many years, and I can't remember when there wasn't a double sign-up session. And I can't think of any other change from previous practice. We recruiters weren't advised of any. Meanwhile, two hours is more than ample time for most candidates to see the schools they need. Most recruiters leave before the end of the session because they have done. Incidentally, this year there were evening sign up sessions at two of the big fairs to leave full interview days to follow. More fairs will do this next year.
b. He said that very few school heads attended SEARCH Cambridge, instead preferring to go to UNI. FALSE. I was at Cambridge and, as always, saw most of my colleagues and peers from the top schools at the various evening receptions. Some heads do have a longstanding allegiance to UNI, but they a minority. Some other heads - often from schools in Central and South America also attend Iowa because they can't compete in salary terms with the premier league schools that attend Cambridge - and by and large these top schools will be represented by heads.
c. He said that IS schools worldwide are seeing falling enrolment. This is really FALSE. A recent TIE survey indicated that 90+% of international schools surveyed had seen at least mild or moderate growth. The International Schools Consultancy - another independent body - continues with its estimation of 7% annual growth in students attending international schools.
d. He said that Bangkok was always the veterans fair, and Cambridge was for newbies. FALSE. SEARCH Bangkok has only been going for seven years and ISS Bangkok for eight so the word "always" makes no sense. Inevitably, though, you will get more experienced international teachers at the Bangkok fairs, because most of those who attend are presently teaching at schools on the Asian circuit. At the London fairs you get a lot of UK teachers trying to get onto the international scene, and at the US fairs you get a lot of US teachers trying to do the same thing. This has ALWAYS been true.
e. There were no schools from Denmark at SEARCH Cambridge and ISS Boston.
However, in one key area Mr Psy is correct. There is no official blacklist of teachers held in secret by school heads. I have been recruiting teachers for nearly thirty years and believe me I would know. School heads read references on the files, conduct their interviews and wherever possible will contact a colleague head whom they trust and who is at the same fair - and thus only an internal phone call away. All of us are busy and the only question we have time for is "Would you hire this teacher again? Usually the answer is yes or no. Sometimes it is more nuanced, which may mean another interview and more conversations with referees. As for actively trying to block a teacher from getting hired again elsewhere - well there are a couple of names I look for when I attend fairs and would alert colleagues if I saw them on the list, because I think they are dangerous to students. Occasionally I see notes on head.net saying if anyone is approached by Mr X for a job at their school, please contact me. I presume that those people are also perceived to be a danger to students. On two occasions, teachers have backed out of contracts for what seem spurious reasons. I find that to be totally unprofessional, and in both cases I have called the recruiting agency and made a formal complaint, but I don't have the time or energy to try to do anything else. However, if someone told me that an applicant had backed out of a contract elsewhere, that would be a big blackmark. My guess is that most school heads feel the same.
I am happy to answer any other recruitment myths.
Walter
What kind of blacklist are we talking about here? I only know of blacklists in-country. For example, I know that there's a blacklist in the school districts of South Korea, and I believe schools can put a teacher on the blacklist if he/she does a runner or something.
I work at an international school in China. They have had some problems in the past with people running, so the HR person told us during orientation that if someone does a runner, she will put that person's name on the blacklist and he/she will never be able to enter China again. Could have been a bluff, but I doubt it - this is China.
I work at an international school in China. They have had some problems in the past with people running, so the HR person told us during orientation that if someone does a runner, she will put that person's name on the blacklist and he/she will never be able to enter China again. Could have been a bluff, but I doubt it - this is China.
Sorry
@Guru
There is no school black list, and consensus will not make it happen. This isnt a question of opinion, "believing" in one does not make it happen or create one. You cant "know", about something that doesnt exist.
@Walter
1) Search has done single sign up sessions at its smaller fairs. Whether 2 hours is "enough" is a matter of opinion. At the more veteran fairs invites move you to the front of the line, at the fairs that cater more too newbies, everyone waits.
2) This year their was a larger percentage of heads at the UNI fair, and more principals at the Search fair.
3) Estimations arent reality, schools are seeing falling enrollment from fewer corporations sending expats to overseas posts.
3) Search BK (January) was CREATED for veterans and highly competitive teachers, as such it was always (though short) the veteran teacher fair. Many newbies often complain about not being able to secure invites to this fair.
@durianfan
A black list for running in China? thats actually interesting because it exists "in a form" its not a blacklist amongst schools. Its an immigration flag that could prevent you from getting a work visa for china. Its a local thing with the PSB. So if your at a school in beijing and try to pull a runner for another school in beijing you may have problems, depending on how much pull your "new" school has with the PSB.
@Chinuk
A local black list exists in several locations, but its not global. Its less a list and more the heads in a city/locality checking in with each other. Again, the heads in Beijing have each others numbers, and when you present your passport and visa, they can easily find out who sponsored your visa (depending on their relationship), its the same in Seoul, Tokyo, Rome, etc. I dont think that constitutes a "list" though its just a background check, or what ever Human Resource procedure you want to call it.
There is no school black list, and consensus will not make it happen. This isnt a question of opinion, "believing" in one does not make it happen or create one. You cant "know", about something that doesnt exist.
@Walter
1) Search has done single sign up sessions at its smaller fairs. Whether 2 hours is "enough" is a matter of opinion. At the more veteran fairs invites move you to the front of the line, at the fairs that cater more too newbies, everyone waits.
2) This year their was a larger percentage of heads at the UNI fair, and more principals at the Search fair.
3) Estimations arent reality, schools are seeing falling enrollment from fewer corporations sending expats to overseas posts.
3) Search BK (January) was CREATED for veterans and highly competitive teachers, as such it was always (though short) the veteran teacher fair. Many newbies often complain about not being able to secure invites to this fair.
@durianfan
A black list for running in China? thats actually interesting because it exists "in a form" its not a blacklist amongst schools. Its an immigration flag that could prevent you from getting a work visa for china. Its a local thing with the PSB. So if your at a school in beijing and try to pull a runner for another school in beijing you may have problems, depending on how much pull your "new" school has with the PSB.
@Chinuk
A local black list exists in several locations, but its not global. Its less a list and more the heads in a city/locality checking in with each other. Again, the heads in Beijing have each others numbers, and when you present your passport and visa, they can easily find out who sponsored your visa (depending on their relationship), its the same in Seoul, Tokyo, Rome, etc. I dont think that constitutes a "list" though its just a background check, or what ever Human Resource procedure you want to call it.
[quote="Walter"]I only started reading this site while on the recruitment circuit. Some of the things that are written are so funny and so wrong, and you are right to be dubious about the many and varied opinions of Mr Psy.
e. There were no schools from Denmark at SEARCH Cambridge or ISS Boston.
Thanks for bringing this up Walter! I was at the Cambridge Fair too....no schools from Denmark. Anyone else see a trend? Maybe his school was there in secret again.
e. There were no schools from Denmark at SEARCH Cambridge or ISS Boston.
Thanks for bringing this up Walter! I was at the Cambridge Fair too....no schools from Denmark. Anyone else see a trend? Maybe his school was there in secret again.
Comments
A piece of paper, a web site makes, no difference, there is still no black list.
Weve come to the point were we are just repeating ourselves.
At the smaller Search fairs they have a single sign up session, as the numbers of schools are quite small compared to fairs at Bangkok or Cambridge. The format or number of sessions has to do with available room. When they can fit all the recruiters in their reserved space they do. When they cant they stage the sign ups into sessions.
Again were just repeating ourselves, its easy to just state someone is wrong.
There were more heads at the UNI fair then at Search/ISS were there were more principals. Search this year just had smaller fairs then years past, and the ISS fair in Bangkok had an unimpressive showing. I can understand why heads would go to UNI, hoping it would have a higher concentration of desirable hires.
Both TIE and the ISC group have a vested interest in maintaining an image of student growth. Moreover this was survey research of 166 LEADING schools (there are over 3,300 IB schools alone), of those only 68% REPORTED an increase. Based on that information ISC PREDICTS (which is just an extrapolation) future growth.
I like to take my data from actual quantitative numbers. I get mine from the IBO.
It is completely on point. The search fair no matter how long its been around has been the fair for experienced veterans and the Cambridge fair for newbies. All Walter did was agree with me. There is nothing about his disagreement that changes my claim that BK is for experienced/veteran teachers and Search for Newbies.
A head needs to know you ran from a previous school. A teacher that pulls a runner in Brazil, and moves to China is going to find out how? and investigate how? if the teacher leaves it off their resume? Again, this is just a distraction from the locust of this argument that their is no black list. Your approach being that if there is no black list that there is something and that something is close enough to a black list, and those distinctions between a "Black list" and a head conducting a background check or talking to other heads is a significant distinction.
I've had this same scenario before with other members on this forum, its just you saying Im wrong because you disagree.
Weve come to the point were we are just repeating ourselves.
At the smaller Search fairs they have a single sign up session, as the numbers of schools are quite small compared to fairs at Bangkok or Cambridge. The format or number of sessions has to do with available room. When they can fit all the recruiters in their reserved space they do. When they cant they stage the sign ups into sessions.
Again were just repeating ourselves, its easy to just state someone is wrong.
There were more heads at the UNI fair then at Search/ISS were there were more principals. Search this year just had smaller fairs then years past, and the ISS fair in Bangkok had an unimpressive showing. I can understand why heads would go to UNI, hoping it would have a higher concentration of desirable hires.
Both TIE and the ISC group have a vested interest in maintaining an image of student growth. Moreover this was survey research of 166 LEADING schools (there are over 3,300 IB schools alone), of those only 68% REPORTED an increase. Based on that information ISC PREDICTS (which is just an extrapolation) future growth.
I like to take my data from actual quantitative numbers. I get mine from the IBO.
It is completely on point. The search fair no matter how long its been around has been the fair for experienced veterans and the Cambridge fair for newbies. All Walter did was agree with me. There is nothing about his disagreement that changes my claim that BK is for experienced/veteran teachers and Search for Newbies.
A head needs to know you ran from a previous school. A teacher that pulls a runner in Brazil, and moves to China is going to find out how? and investigate how? if the teacher leaves it off their resume? Again, this is just a distraction from the locust of this argument that their is no black list. Your approach being that if there is no black list that there is something and that something is close enough to a black list, and those distinctions between a "Black list" and a head conducting a background check or talking to other heads is a significant distinction.
I've had this same scenario before with other members on this forum, its just you saying Im wrong because you disagree.