In this thread: Choose my next school -

[BobStrauss]

By next year my profile will be this:

BA in Poli Sci
MA in Int'l Studies
US Teaching Cert in ESL (+ Elementary and K-12 Social Studies endorsements)
Two Years (one post-cert) experience in 3rd Tier International School

And these are my priorities (in descending order of importance):

1. non-profit
2. savings potential
3. reasonable work load
4. IB curriculum (training opportunity)
5. general quality of life

Any advice on schools I should apply to? I do understand that I'll be quite limited with my lack of experience.

[PsyGuy]

Ok a few things. First, schools dont count experience prior to certification (so you have one year experience). What was your teaching subject? If it was ESL, its not likely to count either (which means you have no experience).

Where should you apply? Anywhere that will take you...

Your basically a humanities/social studies teacher. Your not likely to be considered for a primary (PYP) position as you have no experience, and no background. ESL is a maybe, but none of your certification fields are in high demand. Based on your criteria of wanting an IB school and saving potential Id recommend somewhere in Asia (not in JP, HK, or SG). Your not competitive for Europe or an elite school anywhere, and since you wouldnt land at an elite school youd be lucky to break even. Non-profits can be anywhere, though they are usually the better schools, and somewhere like China may be willing to take you. Reasonable workload is too subjective. Ichiro works a lot harder and longer then i do (or could), but he seems to handle it pretty well. General Quality of Life is more up to you and the region/city your in then any individual school. Its also subjective. Generally larger metropolitan cities offer more extracurricular opportunities outside of school, but you may be the type of person that values a more rural environment.

[BobStrauss]

My teaching experience will be in English (not ESL) at the 4th and 5th grade levels. I'm also a form (home room) teacher and am involved in CCAs.

I'm not interested in working in Europe at all. Right now I'm in Indonesia, and would prefer to stay in Asia, though the Middle East somewhere (not Saudi) would be okay.

[matt]

I could definitely see you in Korea or China. There are a lot of schools that are Tier 2 that would take you. Maybe Seoul Foreign School? Or Shekou International School? Could go to Rumaradee in Bangkok, too.

[ichiro]

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[BobStrauss]

[quote="matt"]I could definitely see you in Korea or China. There are a lot of schools that are Tier 2 that would take you. Maybe Seoul Foreign School? Or Shekou International School? Could go to Rumaradee in Bangkok, too.[/quote]


Shekou I will definitely have to consider. The reviews on ISR aren't great, but beggars can't be choosers. ;)

Seoul Foreign School and Ruamrudee in Bangkok are religious schools, however, and that would disqualify me for public service loan forgiveness (which is the reason why I'm seeking non-profit schools).

These are a few other schools I'm thinking of, but I think I might be setting my sights too high. Can't hurt to simply apply though, can it?


Bandung International School (local hire)
Jakarta International School (local hire)
International School of Bogor (local hire)
Nanjing International School
Beijing City International School (snowball's chance?)
International School of Tianjin
Xiamen International School
Utahloy International School Guangzhou
International School of Penang
Korea International School
Qatar Academy (snowball's chance?)
Australian International School Saigon
Saigon South International School
New International School of Thailand (snowballs chance?)
Fukuoka International School
Yokohama International School (snowballs chance?)

[PsyGuy]

@BobStrauss

Are you trying to qualify for loan forgiveness under the USA "2007 College Cost Reduction and Access Act" or the "Teacher Loan Forgiveness Program"???

If you are I want to wish you better luck then me. I was denied under both programs. For the Teacher Loan Forgiveness Program the school pretty much has to be a US school. For the College Cost Reduction and Access Act the school has to be "public" non-profit, privates dont qualify. It was one of the factors for me taking my current position as were a municipal school (public) and even then im not sure it will count (fingers crossed).

About the only thing you can get forgiven working overseas was surprisingly my Perkins loans which are fine with non profit schools anywhere in the world really, or for profit schools if you teach in special education. My Perkins loans werent a lot but this will be my fifth year, so afterwords my Perkins loans will be gone.

The only other ways to get loan forgivness teaching abroad are:

1) Teaching overseas in the Peace Corp. (not because your teaching but because its the Peace Corp.).

2) Teaching for DODEA (DoDDS).

3) Teaching at a DOS assisted school (and only if you teach in a critical needs area). Some people i know have made it work. Though my understanding is that "overseas" applications are THROUGHLY reviewed, and many are rejected.

[BobStrauss]

Q23 What private non-profit employers qualify as eligible employers for the PSLF Program?
A23 Eligible non-profit employers include those that have received a 501(c)(3) designation from
the IRS. These include [b]most private schools,[/b] colleges, and universities, as well as thousands
of other organizations, agencies, and charities. Your employer will easily be able to tell you if
it has the required IRS designation. The IRS has a searchable database of 501(c)(3)
organizations at http://www.irs.gov/app/pub-78/. (February 3, 2010)
Q24 Can a private employer that has not received a 501(c)(3) designation qualify as a public
service organization for the PSLF Program?
A24 Yes, if the employer is a non-profit organization that meets certain requirements (see below)
and provides one or more of the following public services:
• Emergency management,
• Military service,
• Public safety,
• Law enforcement,
• Public interest law services,
• Early childhood education (including licensed or regulated childcare, Head Start, and statefunded pre-kindergarten),
• Public service for individuals with disabilities and the elderly,
• Public health (including nurses, nurse practitioners, nurses in a clinical setting, and full-time
professionals engaged in health care practitioner occupations and health care support
occupations),
• Public education,
• Public library services, and
• School library or other school-based services.
In addition, the employer must not be a labor union, a partisan political organization, or an
organization that is engaged in religious activities (unless the qualifying public services it
provides are unrelated to religious instruction, worship services, or proselytizing). (February 3,
2010)


Private, non-profit schools actually should qualify. But maybe you were right, because now that I'm looking at it, it says that organizations must be 501(c)3, and that if it's not a US non-profit, it probably does not count. Doesn't confirm it one way or the other, however.

This would be really disheartening if that's the case. I probably wouldn't mind going back to public schools in the U.S. for ten years, but I would feel REALLY trapped in doing so. I looked into this in-depth a few years ago, and at that time there was nothing listed about requirements for the non-profits to be US organizations.

Maybe a few international schools are actually based as US non-profits? Might be my only hope.

Just noticed that the schools under this foundation might fit the bill:

http://www.isdfoundation.org/

There is also a Taipei American School Foundation that is registered as a 501(c)(3) that would qualify - but I'm not sure if working for the school is the same thing as the foundation.

[PsyGuy]

I'll admit international teaching and loan forgivness is not my area of expertise at all, and I think its pretty muddy water.
In my experience a LOT of it has to do with which particular examiner on any particular day just happens to get your application packet in front of them. You might get lucky, you might get unlucky. All totaled the schools with a "better" chance are pretty few.

My biggest gripe is that theres so many different interpretations depending on what web site you go through, or who you ask. I've gotten a dozen different answers when I was deeply looking into this, and I think the majority of customer service people just have no experience in this type of scenario.

I pretty much gave up, and have over a quarter million in student loan debt, which unless its forgiven I have no hope of paying back. I guess the one good thing is they cant garnish salary/wages outside the USA.

If you find anything out keep me updated, please.

[hallier]

[quote="BobStrauss"][quote="matt"]

These are a few other schools I'm thinking of, but I think I might be setting my sights too high. Can't hurt to simply apply though, can it?


Bandung International School (local hire)
Jakarta International School (local hire)
International School of Bogor (local hire)
Nanjing International School
Beijing City International School (snowball's chance?)
International School of Tianjin
Xiamen International School
Utahloy International School Guangzhou
International School of Penang
Korea International School
Qatar Academy (snowball's chance?)
Australian International School Saigon
Saigon South International School
New International School of Thailand (snowballs chance?)
Fukuoka International School
Yokohama International School (snowballs chance?)[/quote]

First of all, I think you definitely need to go to a fair. There may be still time to get into the ISS Bangkok fair (which is close to Indonesia).

I'm not sure what your Tier 3 Indonesian school is, but I would not consider the schools in Bandung/Bogor as a local hire. Their packages are weak even for overseas hires. I am not too sure if they would be stand out schools to have on your CV.

Some of the schools on your list are for profit - Utahloy, for instance. Beijing CIS is owned by a property developer I think.

I know that the 2 Saigon schools are expanding and also hire inexperienced teachers - but AIS is for profit, I think.

Definitely send your details off to schools you are interested in - you never know. But I think your best bet is to go to a fair and talk to lots of different schools.

Good luck:)

[BobStrauss]

I know what you mean, PsyGuy. I did my best to ensure a non-profit school would work, and everything that was listed online awhile back verified that. Now the IBR site has posts indicating it must be US 501(c)(3). Frustrating.

Well, maybe I'll have to change my list of requirements to "any school that allows me to save $20-25k + per year".

:)

[PsyGuy]

Thats not all that impossible, depends on the lifestyle you live and where you are at. The elites pay very nice packages. You need a school with a low cost of living that pays well, and you need to be frugal.

Personally i blame the "ESL/Language school" crowd that tried to do a couple years teaching ESL and using that for forgiveness.

[heyteach]

Bob, I can say with 99.9% certainty that a school in a foreign country, unless it's a DODEA school, isn't going to qualify for your loan forgiveness. The implication in these laws is that you are doing public service in the U.S., and often in "underserved" areas; teaching kids from wealthy and powerful families in another country probably won't cut it. I used to teach on a reservation and had several colleagues who were able to work off their loans teaching there. That place was much more third-world than someplace like Bangkok or even Quito, where I used to teach. Those were probably the best 19 years of my life.

If I were you, I would check and double- and triple-check whether a school in foreign country would qualify, and get it in writing. And please feel free to correct me if you find out it does!

On the other hand, if you can land a good-paying job in another country with housing thrown in, you can start paying down those loans. You'll just have to be somewhat frugal.

I wonder if serving in the Peace Corps qualifies??

[BobStrauss]

[quote="heyteach"]Bob, I can say with 99.9% certainty that a school in a foreign country, unless it's a DODEA school, isn't going to qualify for your loan forgiveness. The implication in these laws is that you are doing public service in the U.S., and often in "underserved" areas; teaching kids from wealthy and powerful families in another country probably won't cut it. I used to teach on a reservation and had several colleagues who were able to work off their loans teaching there. That place was much more third-world than someplace like Bangkok or even Quito, where I used to teach. Those were probably the best 19 years of my life.

If I were you, I would check and double- and triple-check whether a school in foreign country would qualify, and get it in writing. And please feel free to correct me if you find out it does!

On the other hand, if you can land a good-paying job in another country with housing thrown in, you can start paying down those loans. You'll just have to be somewhat frugal.

I wonder if serving in the Peace Corps qualifies??[/quote]


I know what you mean, and I understand entirely what you're getting at. But if the rules state that all 501(3)(c) organizations qualify if they provide school services, then I plan to push for that as much as I can. It's not as if corporations and lobbyists don't exploit tax loopholes themselves with great regularity - and success as well.

Unfortunately my lobbying power doesn't quite match GE's. :wink:

I'll let you know what I find out nonetheless.

This really wouldn't concern me too much, if it weren't for the fact that I am 28 and owe 100k. Even if I paid it off in 10 years, I'd be starting my retirement savings from scratch at age 38 - with a likely chance of a late and frugal retirement.

Worst case scenario, perhaps I can work at Saudi Aramco or some place like that for a few years to pay it down quickly.

[john_e]

Hi Bob (and others) -

Did you ever receive a final answer about receiving PSLF while working at a non-profit international school?

Thanks.