The Principles of the Principals?
The Principles of the Principals?
I have been a member of ISR now for just 9 months and I have opened up every report on international schools so I could tell the school my kid goes to, what a bad job 'they' were doing, well wake up and smell the coffee lady! And I did, but instead of coffee what I opened up was a can of worms offset by 85% of international schools reported as being 'rubbish' from teacher harassment, lies, deceits, low morals, mismanagement, power hungry principals, directors, pay and lastly, private international schools who are in it for the money. ISR has been operating since 2003 and whilst it is a wonderful opportunity for teachers to get stuff of their chests and warn other teachers about bad performing schools, sadly that's about the only respite they get. Nothing has changed really since 2003 so where is this really leading to? Where the hell are the principles of these schools and more's the point; where are the principles of principals?
Well
What do you expect? The vast majority of the 'bad' international schools are private for profit schools, they are more set up like a business to generate revenue then serve as institutions of learning. Even the non-profits are still private schools, and have pretty wide discretion to govern themselves.
The purpose of this site, really isnt to 'change' the world of international schools, its to warn future teachers of potential problems with a school before taking a job. If you want change go to UNESCO, or go to that countries ministry of education (I doubt you will get far)
Principals are more like managers in an organization, their loyalty is to the organization (the school) and CAN only support teachers in so far as that support benefits the school. They may advocate for teachers, but only so far as its in the schools interests to do so. Any principal that supports a teacher (even in the best interest of the students) that goes up against the head/board/owner, is going to find themselves not a principal anymore.
I very recently had to do something (well I didnt 'have' too) where i had to expel a student. In a nut shell the student was failing for medical reasons. So the solution is for mom to withdraw her child out of school for medical cause. which were fully supported, but heres the thing, mom wouldnt do it, she wanted her child in school with friends and with other people as part of the students support system. In addition, mom worked during the day, and it would have left her child at home alone. So mom requests a hearing before the municipal education committee (the school board). My principal says to expel the student. Now I'm new here I just started this position this year and was asked to do this about a month into my contract. I really agonized over this, it was tearing me up inside. I got some advice from people, and in the end my recommendation was to expel the student. I cant even say it was the noble thing or right thing to do, because as i was thinking about it, i realized that if i didnt i would be fired (since the first year of my contract is probationary) and i didnt have anywhere to go. So yeah i did the wrong thing, because i needed my job and pay check.
The purpose of this site, really isnt to 'change' the world of international schools, its to warn future teachers of potential problems with a school before taking a job. If you want change go to UNESCO, or go to that countries ministry of education (I doubt you will get far)
Principals are more like managers in an organization, their loyalty is to the organization (the school) and CAN only support teachers in so far as that support benefits the school. They may advocate for teachers, but only so far as its in the schools interests to do so. Any principal that supports a teacher (even in the best interest of the students) that goes up against the head/board/owner, is going to find themselves not a principal anymore.
I very recently had to do something (well I didnt 'have' too) where i had to expel a student. In a nut shell the student was failing for medical reasons. So the solution is for mom to withdraw her child out of school for medical cause. which were fully supported, but heres the thing, mom wouldnt do it, she wanted her child in school with friends and with other people as part of the students support system. In addition, mom worked during the day, and it would have left her child at home alone. So mom requests a hearing before the municipal education committee (the school board). My principal says to expel the student. Now I'm new here I just started this position this year and was asked to do this about a month into my contract. I really agonized over this, it was tearing me up inside. I got some advice from people, and in the end my recommendation was to expel the student. I cant even say it was the noble thing or right thing to do, because as i was thinking about it, i realized that if i didnt i would be fired (since the first year of my contract is probationary) and i didnt have anywhere to go. So yeah i did the wrong thing, because i needed my job and pay check.
Last edited by PsyGuy on Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
1st point - psyguy, it is a total breach of confidentiality and professionalism for you to share that story on line. You should delete the post. I appreciate the intent, but you've crossed a professional line.
2nd point - to the original post, there really is a shocking disparity between the best international schools and the worst... The top tier schools, like the Jakarta Internationals and United World Colleges of the world really are some of the very best schools on the planet. They offer amazing teaching, incredible opportunities, and wonderful international climates. Any teacher or parent would be proud to be associated with a school like that. The next tier down has some great schools as well. They are typified by less package and a smaller population from which to draw a student body. They are often still very well run, but a bit more limited in what they can accomplish. Still, very good schools. Then there is the third tier: for profit schools, ESL academies, local schools disguised as international schools, etc... Not every school in this situation is third tier, but way too many of them are. They are sometimes well intentioned, but often not. They can be really quite gruesome.
The principals, as Psyguy said, are often caught between managing and educating. It is a tough place to be. They can never call every decision "right." Some people are going to be disgruntled. Some choices are going to stink.
The difficulty with ISR is that it is absolutely necessary in order to ward people away from the border-line evil third tier schools. But at the same time, it gives disgruntled employees an opportunity to anonymously vent about borderline admin. The solution is MORE TRANSPARENCY. When there are 30 reviews of a school and 28 of them are reasonable, then the two screaming maniacs will stick out and people will know they are nuts. When a school only has two reviews, nobody knows if the two bad reviews are really indicative of anything. Again, the only real long term solution is MORE TRANSPARENCY AND PARTICIPATION. We all need to be speaking reasonably and often about our schools, in a professional, discreet, and respectful way. It is like wikipedia - the solution is more participation.
2nd point - to the original post, there really is a shocking disparity between the best international schools and the worst... The top tier schools, like the Jakarta Internationals and United World Colleges of the world really are some of the very best schools on the planet. They offer amazing teaching, incredible opportunities, and wonderful international climates. Any teacher or parent would be proud to be associated with a school like that. The next tier down has some great schools as well. They are typified by less package and a smaller population from which to draw a student body. They are often still very well run, but a bit more limited in what they can accomplish. Still, very good schools. Then there is the third tier: for profit schools, ESL academies, local schools disguised as international schools, etc... Not every school in this situation is third tier, but way too many of them are. They are sometimes well intentioned, but often not. They can be really quite gruesome.
The principals, as Psyguy said, are often caught between managing and educating. It is a tough place to be. They can never call every decision "right." Some people are going to be disgruntled. Some choices are going to stink.
The difficulty with ISR is that it is absolutely necessary in order to ward people away from the border-line evil third tier schools. But at the same time, it gives disgruntled employees an opportunity to anonymously vent about borderline admin. The solution is MORE TRANSPARENCY. When there are 30 reviews of a school and 28 of them are reasonable, then the two screaming maniacs will stick out and people will know they are nuts. When a school only has two reviews, nobody knows if the two bad reviews are really indicative of anything. Again, the only real long term solution is MORE TRANSPARENCY AND PARTICIPATION. We all need to be speaking reasonably and often about our schools, in a professional, discreet, and respectful way. It is like wikipedia - the solution is more participation.
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interteach
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lightstays
- Posts: 116
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- Location: Americas
I'm not here to support psyguy necessarily--his grammar is often appalling--but I'm not sure we have a breach of confidentiality here. Teaching is not governed by the same codes as, say, psychotherapy, in which a patient can expect complete trust and non-disclosure to protect what they say to a therapist as long as their statements do not imply legal breaches. Psyguy has anonymously explained a situation involving his expulsion of a student. He does not mention who, when, where, and very little of the how and why. We have no way of proving the veracity of his account. It could just as easily be fiction as a scenario that really happened, and, in light of the more overt disclosures of confidential material in ISR's fora and blog threads, this doesn't strike me as so egregious.
I'd be curious to read where various licensing boards would come down on this scenario.
I'd be curious to read where various licensing boards would come down on this scenario.
interteach, that seems like a bit of a personal attack. I think Psyguy's post was over the line. No need to attack? I dunno. Seems like we can call someone out w/out attacking...
Lightstays, good points. Because of Psyguys profile on the sight, and previous posts, we all have a pretty good idea where he teaches. I don't think there is any sort of legal line crossed, though. I just feel like if I were the parent I would feel like my kid's problems were being paraded to make a tangental point, which to me would feel like a breach of trust.
This brings up an interesting side-discussion. Sites like this absolutely rely on transparency and honesty, yet some level of professional respect for confidentiality is important for a school environment. How do we decide on those lines that ought not be crossed?
Lightstays, good points. Because of Psyguys profile on the sight, and previous posts, we all have a pretty good idea where he teaches. I don't think there is any sort of legal line crossed, though. I just feel like if I were the parent I would feel like my kid's problems were being paraded to make a tangental point, which to me would feel like a breach of trust.
This brings up an interesting side-discussion. Sites like this absolutely rely on transparency and honesty, yet some level of professional respect for confidentiality is important for a school environment. How do we decide on those lines that ought not be crossed?
Normally
I cant possibly explore all the legal codes in existence. In Denmark normally my comment would have been very, very close to the line on one side or another. Student identifying information is protected, however what is considered "identifying" information is defined as "those records unique to a person", which have been interpreted as name, tax id number, birthdate, etc. In this very, very specific case however, since the parent had requested a hearing before the commission, and all commission hearings are by law open to the public, and their records and transcripts (unless sealed) are public records. The parent waived confidentiality as part of bringing her complaint.
Aside from the legal line their is a higher line, the Copenhagen municipal school system is pretty big, and I didnt disclose identifying information of the student. You couldnt take my account, and show up in the city and find the student.
I dont know what would really happen from a licensing standpoint. Of course I could face disciplinary measures, and be terminated but I dont hold a Danish teaching credential. My license's are from the states, and I dont believe the California Department of Education would have jurisdiction for sanctions before the licensing board. Even if they did, the offense could only be a violation of FERPA and that wouldnt apply since Danish schools dont receive funds from the US Department of Education. I suppose they could make a complaint as an ethics violation, but it would be difficult to prove that I acted with gross indifference or disregard.
For the record, I'm not happy with what i did, im really not, but if i put my job on the line every time my principals were challenged by something i was instructed to do, id never have a job, and id be broke. Teaching an education may be a calling, but very few can do it for free. At the end of the month, we all have bills to pay.
Lastly, i found the opinions and advice of other forum members compelling (thank you) and modified the earlier account to remove any indirect identification of the student.
Aside from the legal line their is a higher line, the Copenhagen municipal school system is pretty big, and I didnt disclose identifying information of the student. You couldnt take my account, and show up in the city and find the student.
I dont know what would really happen from a licensing standpoint. Of course I could face disciplinary measures, and be terminated but I dont hold a Danish teaching credential. My license's are from the states, and I dont believe the California Department of Education would have jurisdiction for sanctions before the licensing board. Even if they did, the offense could only be a violation of FERPA and that wouldnt apply since Danish schools dont receive funds from the US Department of Education. I suppose they could make a complaint as an ethics violation, but it would be difficult to prove that I acted with gross indifference or disregard.
For the record, I'm not happy with what i did, im really not, but if i put my job on the line every time my principals were challenged by something i was instructed to do, id never have a job, and id be broke. Teaching an education may be a calling, but very few can do it for free. At the end of the month, we all have bills to pay.
Lastly, i found the opinions and advice of other forum members compelling (thank you) and modified the earlier account to remove any indirect identification of the student.
Often the reality of what many educational institutions are seems so far away from the ideologies we get presented with in teacher training that it can be hard to face. However, I don’t think any principal goes into the job thinking, “I’m going to make this a miserable place to work and provide a terrible learning environmentâ€
[quote="lightstays"]I'm not here to support psyguy necessarily--his grammar is often appalling--but I'm not sure we have a breach of confidentiality here. Teaching is not governed by the same codes as, say, psychotherapy, in which a patient can expect complete trust and non-disclosure to protect what they say to a therapist as long as their statements do not imply legal breaches. Psyguy has anonymously explained a situation involving his expulsion of a student. He does not mention who, when, where, and very little of the how and why. We have no way of proving the veracity of his account. It could just as easily be fiction as a scenario that really happened, and, in light of the more overt disclosures of confidential material in ISR's fora and blog threads, this doesn't strike me as so egregious.
I'd be curious to read where various licensing boards would come down on this scenario.[/quote]
Lightstays : You are wrong. The Ontario Ministry of Education and the OCT put their teachers accountable to the public. So yeah, what Psyguy has done / posted is seriously in breach of confidentiality ( first of all, he disclosed health as the reason for expulsion and secondly, he states that he did the WRONG thing for money ).
Ironic how this post started off with the principles of principals in international education spheres...well, there you have it.
I'd be curious to read where various licensing boards would come down on this scenario.[/quote]
Lightstays : You are wrong. The Ontario Ministry of Education and the OCT put their teachers accountable to the public. So yeah, what Psyguy has done / posted is seriously in breach of confidentiality ( first of all, he disclosed health as the reason for expulsion and secondly, he states that he did the WRONG thing for money ).
Ironic how this post started off with the principles of principals in international education spheres...well, there you have it.
Last edited by Android on Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Humm
Thats interesting, though I dont think either the Ontario Ministry of Education or OEB, has any jurisdiction over myself personally. I also dont feel any compulsion to comply with their particular set of ethics and regulations.
Maybe you read my post without getting the intention i was trying to convey. I think expelling the student was the wrong course of action, though I did it anyway. I dont think using it as an example in an anonymous way was a breach of ethics or regulations.
Maybe you read my post without getting the intention i was trying to convey. I think expelling the student was the wrong course of action, though I did it anyway. I dont think using it as an example in an anonymous way was a breach of ethics or regulations.
[quote="sonicjimi"]interteach, that seems like a bit of a personal attack. I think Psyguy's post was over the line. No need to attack? I dunno. Seems like we can call someone out w/out attacking...
Lightstays, good points. Because of Psyguys profile on the sight, and previous posts, we all have a pretty good idea where he teaches. I don't think there is any sort of legal line crossed, though. I just feel like if I were the parent I would feel like my kid's problems were being paraded to make a tangental point, which to me would feel like a breach of trust.
This brings up an interesting side-discussion. Sites like this absolutely rely on transparency and honesty, yet some level of professional respect for confidentiality is important for a school environment. How do we decide on those lines that ought not be crossed?[/quote]
Well, the fact that his name also starts with a " D ", works in Denmark (as you say), has a principal and administrator position ( IB ), worked in Japan before ( specifically Kyoto ), he would be pretty easy to search out.
Lightstays, good points. Because of Psyguys profile on the sight, and previous posts, we all have a pretty good idea where he teaches. I don't think there is any sort of legal line crossed, though. I just feel like if I were the parent I would feel like my kid's problems were being paraded to make a tangental point, which to me would feel like a breach of trust.
This brings up an interesting side-discussion. Sites like this absolutely rely on transparency and honesty, yet some level of professional respect for confidentiality is important for a school environment. How do we decide on those lines that ought not be crossed?[/quote]
Well, the fact that his name also starts with a " D ", works in Denmark (as you say), has a principal and administrator position ( IB ), worked in Japan before ( specifically Kyoto ), he would be pretty easy to search out.
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Teachergirl
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:43 am
Hi,
I believe that I have an informed opinion on this issue. I am an experienced licensed mental health counselor and a school counselor.
Please note that psyguy has edited his comment twice since it was first posted. At first, there were other details given including medical info. It would still be quite easy for professionals to get access to the original post. It is not really gone.
Anyone with access to medical information should consider the possible ethical, legal and professional ramifications of Psyguy's comments. First off, the student, a family member, a school employee, an employee of the next school that this student will try to go to, or anyone who knows the identity of Psyguy could be in the position to infer that they know who the student is. Psyguy gave pretty specific info early on that would definitely lead to one student, so three could be some very serious consequences in certain situations.
Let me give just one example- What if a registrar at another school knows psyguy's identity and reads about what his school did? Later that day, a female student who was just expelled from his school comes to the new school and tries to enroll. It would be easy for the registrar to make an excuse such as, enrollment is at capacity because they don't want to take on a difficult student. The registrar could also show the family the information that is online and warn them that it could be used to by others to discriminate against their daughter.
Of course, the family would be furious. They could get an attorney, file a lawsuit, all this would be made public and school board would end up firing psyguy.
Very unlikely, but possible.
I believe that I have an informed opinion on this issue. I am an experienced licensed mental health counselor and a school counselor.
Please note that psyguy has edited his comment twice since it was first posted. At first, there were other details given including medical info. It would still be quite easy for professionals to get access to the original post. It is not really gone.
Anyone with access to medical information should consider the possible ethical, legal and professional ramifications of Psyguy's comments. First off, the student, a family member, a school employee, an employee of the next school that this student will try to go to, or anyone who knows the identity of Psyguy could be in the position to infer that they know who the student is. Psyguy gave pretty specific info early on that would definitely lead to one student, so three could be some very serious consequences in certain situations.
Let me give just one example- What if a registrar at another school knows psyguy's identity and reads about what his school did? Later that day, a female student who was just expelled from his school comes to the new school and tries to enroll. It would be easy for the registrar to make an excuse such as, enrollment is at capacity because they don't want to take on a difficult student. The registrar could also show the family the information that is online and warn them that it could be used to by others to discriminate against their daughter.
Of course, the family would be furious. They could get an attorney, file a lawsuit, all this would be made public and school board would end up firing psyguy.
Very unlikely, but possible.
Not really...
I too am a mental health professional (LPC) and School Psychological Specialist. My edits were only out of courtesy. If you read my following post you will see that the parent waived confidentiality when filing their complaint, as commission hearing are legally public record, and hearing are open to the public, so its a moot point and any possible or perceived transgression is academic.