Concerns about this site...

Mark L. Hansen

Concerns about this site...

Post by Mark L. Hansen »

I think the idea of offering a forum for teachers to find out about international schools, living conditions, work conditions, and those nagging questions you wished you had asked before going to a new country are all very relevant and extremely useful. However, I find the comments made to date on this site quite mean, vindictive, and many appear unprofessional and quite possibly libelous. The fact that names of administrators and heads are being used and available for all to see and read is quite troubling. Just as we would never post a student's name or a teacher's name in a public forum, I think the same respect should be given to the heads of international schools.

As an example, when a ECIS Visiting Accreditation Team visits a school and writes their report, they never refer to a specific person, rather they use terms like "The Visiting Team recommends the administration consider..." or "The Visiting Team recommend the school board completes...? It is clear whom the point is being made to without singling out an individual.

I have been involved in four different international schools as a teacher and as an administrator. I would offer that any administrator that is trying to promote positive change and bring in new ideas is not going to please everyone. No one goes into school administration hoping to win a popularity contest. However, the vast majority of the reviews of schools and heads on this site to date are so negative that anyone considering going overseas for the first time would quickly decide against it after reviewing this site. I have always said that international schools are the "best kept secret in education" because they offer dynamic possibilities professionally and personally.

I hope that as this site develops and grows with users, international teachers will offer both positive and negative comments about schools. But what I think it really needs to consider is promoting the free exchange of perceptions without singling out a specific person?both positively and negatively.

Mark L. Hansen
Elementary Principal
Berlin Brandenburg International School
Germany
mark.hansen@bbis.de

November 13, 2003
Rageh
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:53 am

Post by Rageh »

I do agree to an extent. But what if you had worked in a really poor school. A school that abuses it's staff, breaks International codes of conduct and even employs people who are totally inappropriate. I have, and it is really frustrating that these people get away with it. New staff arrive and because of the time, effort and expense of moving to a new country they put up with it for a year of two and then leave. Many are afraid to break contract as it doesn't look good and have a miserable time. They leave and a new batch arrive and the circle goes on. At least now there is a forum to name and shame these people.

For far too long poor management has been able to thrive in some International schools precisely because there is no independent forum to "out" the culprits. I agree that this all has to be taken with a pinch of salt as one teacher with a particular gripe against a school will post a biased view. But surely as time moves on and this forum becomes more popular a trend will develop which will make it clear what is happening in certain institutions. This can only be good in the long run for the students of the school concerned which is, after all, what it is all about.
Ed

Post by Ed »

I agree that directors need to be held accountable for their actions. As teachers we can be black balled by directors that specifically identify individuals by name. Why, then, should directors be exempt from teachers knowing the truth about how they conduct themselves? Are directors to be held above reproach? It is absolutely absurd to even think that a teacher can be black balled by a director that is himself inept and revengeful and not qualified to lead a school. It is that directors statements that are Libelous and not the teachers that are bringing the truth to light. I support the ISR website completely and believe those that have nothing to hide will welcome this site as it will direct more teachers to their schools. Ultimately we are here to serve children and if weeding out people not dedicated to that end is the result of this website than so much the better.
tutu

hall of shame, if you will

Post by tutu »

While I appreciate your point Mark, I believe directors need to be held accountable too. Teachers can be blacklisted, but what of directors? A poor administrator should not be one of the"best kept secrets? in the international teaching circuit. There is no international teachers union, and teachers are at the director?s whim.
Administrators get to attend several job fairs each year and conferences, where they can meet up with other superintendents around the world and compare notes. Teachers don?t have this luxury. Teachers get word from the new staff, who come to their current school, and possibly word back from those who move on, as well as contacts through a job fair every couple of years. For anyone new to international teaching ? good luck!
Agreed, this is not a popularity contest, but this applies to teachers as well. If someone were to mar the name of a superintendent or school of excellence, her/his supporters would jump to her/his defence. I would jump to my former principal?s defence in a heartbeat, though I doubt any would have a negative word to say. Of course, what is read here, must be read with a grain of salt.
My advice to you, treat your staff fairly and with respect and maybe one day you?ll be reading glowing praise about yourself.
mandy

Excellent website

Post by mandy »

I support this website 100%. The teachers have been waiting for a forum where they can share their expert advice and opinion regarding good and bad directors. IT has been noted these last few year by most teachers that those directors who are unprofessional are never held accountable as they are in foreign lands and they do not have to face a teacher's union.
I wish this site had existed when I was attending teacher job fairs. It would have saved me alot of anguish and money. *** There are some great international directors and schools out there !
HOWEVER, it is very important to start making those directors that are unprofessional also ACCOUNTABLE for their actions. Let us all pitch in to make the international schools a wonderful working environment !
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Jenni

reply to Mark

Post by Jenni »

Mark

I do think that your concerns are premature. If this forum is an outlet for malcontents, it will die very quickly and your fears will be unfounded. If it thrives, then maybe, just maybe, there is a need for it?

From your own experience you will know that individual school policies provide little to no legal protection for teachers. Unfortunately that seems to be a green light for many administrators to treat their staff in ways that would be impossible "back home". For a long time, the only recourse for teachers who have been badly treated has been through individual word of mouth - there is no forum where they can take their concerns and be guaranteed a fair and impartial hearing. The agencies - ECIS, ISS and SEARCH will listen - maybe even listen sympathetically - but ultimately each international school is a law unto itself and nothing can be done.

It's rare that an individual school has a grievance procedure which protects grievants from being harrased/threatened and which is legally binding - so teachers have no other options than this forum. There have been very real pressures/threats from administrators to teachers who have wished to set up a legitimate teachers' assocation which would focus on teachers' rights and responsibilities in an open and ethical environment. Maybe , if those bodies had been permitted to function, an anonymous forum would not be necessary.

The sad fact is that if you are an international teacher currently working on the circuit , the only way you can speak out about major injustices with respect to both teachers and students ( and continue to work on the international circuit) is through an annonymous forum. Many of us have evidence of references which have been changed from glowing to damning when teachers have disagreed with admin, prospective employers being "warned off trouble makers'' etc, etc- and these are just the tips of the iceberg- they don't include chats over a beer or three at conferences.

Until school administrators acknowledge that teachers do have legitimate concerns and permit those concerns to be aired in a safe environment, this forum is the only recourse many of us have when we have been unfairly treated. Until administrators self regulate their own professional conduct, as opposed to cover up major "indiscretions" , this forum is the only option. Until there is some guarantee that teachers who do speak up will not lose their jobs, this forum is the only option.

As this site grows, it will become very clear which reviews are legitimate and which are not. As this site grows , schools which do follow best practise will also be reviewed. As this site grows, new teachers to the international circuit will be spared grief, humiliation and financial loss . As this site grows , there is hope that the international education circuit will have finally come of age. As this site grows, maybe the international education circuit will decide that it no longer needs to be afraid that treating staff with respect is a sign of weakness .

I strongly believe that any administration which treats its staff fairly and equitably will out perform an administration which governs by fear. What you are currently seeing on this site is the result of fear and intense frustration on the part of international school teachers who are faced with "unusual" working situations.

I hope that some day soon it will become possible for us all to put our names to these comments and not be penalised for daring to speak out. Until then, this forum is our only opportunity to be proactive and work towards the positive development of professional standards in all international schools.

Well done ISR!
fella

Post by fella »

Dear Mark,

The concerns you raise here, are legitamate. However, would a survey that was submitted by the Teacher's Association of a particular school, without naming the Head, etc. give the process even more credibility. I for one think so!
Ted

Post by Ted »

Dear Fella,

Are you suggesting that by not naming heads of schools ISR would have more credibility? Your statement is not clear. I for one am finding ISR a great help.
GeeBee

Posting on ISR

Post by GeeBee »

Hi Ted and Fella, et al.
I'm sort of fence-sitting about posting the names of Heads, at least about doing it too overtly. This site has the potential to become a powerful and valuable resource, or to get completely discredited for being a 'slam book', and how we establish the groundrules at this stage will have a tremendous impact.

As a teacher, I live in fear of discovering that my Head is an unprofessional manipulator, and I worry about getting a bad recommendation from them for unjustified reasons. One bad reference could seriously limit or ruin my overseas career. I certainly wouldn't want that unjustified bad reference sitting out there in public, in an international forum, for all to see.

In the same vein, a flaming post from an unprofessional or manipulative teacher (lets not lie to ourselves, they exist out there) using this site for revenge could seriously damage an administrator who is undeserving. I don't think two wrongs make it right. We object to be unfairly victimized; I think the Heads are deserving of the same protection.

So I don't want too much personal info about them posted TOO blatantly. On the other hand, I certainly DO want to hear credible comments about bad experiences with unprofessional Heads or schools. So I want that information out there.

I don't have a solution to offer. I know that one person's bad school might be another person's shangri-la. One perspn's Demon Administrator might be another person's Mentor. With no way to assess the credibility of the teacher who is posting, I don't know if its good to have the name of the Head out there dangling in the wind for all to see.

Maybe we could develop some sort of 'rating' scale for posters, similar to what they have for sellers on EBay, or something. Some sort of way to establish credibility? I don't know...

--GB
growling

Posting on ISR

Post by growling »

I agree with Mark.
I work at an international school, and have come here to see what I was told had been written by my school. Pure libel! International schools attract some very good teachers and they also attract some very poor teachers. Some teachers come overseas, and seem to expect that because they are not at home, they do not have to follow the rules. My school has dismissed some teachers for improper conduct: coming to school under the influence of alchohol, using profanity in front of students, leaving students unsupervised in the classroom while the teacher sits in the lounge having coffee, refusing to submit lesson plans, leaving school early every Friday. These are only a few of the unprofessional behaviors that our school has suffered through from supposedly credentialed teachers.

Anyone can come to this site and write anything they want about any school they want, even schools they have never worked at! How much credence can be put in a site which permits that?

It would be very good to have a site where teachers could get candid information about schools and countries before accepting positions and heading overseas. But there is NO way to be assured that anything posted on this site is in any way true!
ISR Administrator

Post by ISR Administrator »

ISR is working to make this site a valuable tool for overseas teachers. We are only beginning. You do bring up some valuable points about posting on the site. Your suggestions are requested for revising the posting process. In the meantime it is true that there are some directors unjustly ending the careers of very qualified teachers while they hide behind the shield of anonymity and non-accountability. On the other hand there are some absolutely outstanding schools out there. I have worked at five international schools; four of them were A+, the fifth was depressing beyond compare.
Initially, comments went straight on to the ISR site. We have stopped that practice and now have the opportunity to review all postings. We have been contacted by a good number of directors. Most support the site and are offering their input to help us develop the concept. It is a new concept and a work in progress. We are continually calling for positive, upbeat, in depth reviews of various schools, accompanied by the writer?s signature. This has yet to materialize on anything but a minor scale. We invite you to take the first step and submit a review of this nature. ISR.
Guest

Post by Guest »

Dear list administrator,

One suggestion would be to require a name and e-mail address from those posting evaluations to the site. I understand that some posters might want to remain anonymous, but that would still be possible. For example, a lot of forums require an e-mail address and a name when registering, and then send an e-mail for confirmation before allowing the person into the site. On a similar not, when sopmeone wanted to post an evbaluation, they could be required to fill in a form giving their name and e-mail address and then reply to a confirmation before their evaluation were posted. Their names and e-mail addresses certainly do not need to appear on the evaluations themselves. People who want to submit legitimate evaluations should be willing to go through this procedure, and one would think that those with other motives may be somewhat detered by it.

There are people in this world who like to cause trouble just for the heck of it. Here someone could cause a lot of damage to a school.
I notice that even your site owners do not put their names anywhere on the site. Why not?
anon

Anonymity, blacklisting and professional dignity.

Post by anon »

'Guest' said: "I notice that even your site owners do not put their names anywhere on the site. Why not?"

Probably for the same reason you didn't put YOUR name on YOUR post, 'Guest': Fear, and the protection that anonymity brings.

Lets face it; any sort of public criticism of a school or Head (which would improve the school and the International profession as a whole), leaves us and our careers vulnerable. One bad critique (justified or not) of a school or a Head will only make it harder for them to hire next year. They will always get another job: we've all seen Heads who are criminal in their mismanagement move on to better schools. But one bad critique of a teacher (justified or not) can end their career. Or worse yet, blacklisted. In fact, I think blacklisting should be done away with, as it clearly underscores who the hiring service is working for. If they also provided some sort of blacklist service for the Heads, then I'd think they'd have a balanced perspective on where deficiencies in schools can also lie. But they won't do it. Thats why we need to be able to talk about the bad school Heads here, at our professional peril.

Participating on this forum is a frightening thing, which is most certainly shouldn't be. I can hardly imagine how nervous it must be HOSTING this forum. Hang in there, ISR!

--anon
ISR Administrator

Post by ISR Administrator »

Dear Guest,

In answer to your question:

We have been working directly with Forrest Browman of TIE in an effort to make the ISR site the best it can be for all concerned. We have identified ourselves to him. We are not trying to conceal our identity as our intentions are only forthright. Our website is registered and it is no secret who owns the site. We also took out ads on the TIE site. We have been contacted at our registered email address by many school heads with comments and suggestions to help us shape and mold the ISR site. We see no reason to publish our names since we are only providing the forum and not expressing our own opinions.

When this forum was first started we required a password in order to post. I noticed that you signed on as a guest and did not take advantage of the option to register and identify yourself. Here lies the crux of the situation; teachers are afraid and for good reason. We are working on resolving some issues with the site and your suggestion is a good one. Our intention is establish this site and make it a respected and useful tool. We are actually in the process of creating the html to require a password and user name to sign on to the site, complete with an email conformation. We believe that teachers could then post with out including their names but having gone through the registration process would feel more obligated to post only information of real use to the international teaching community.

ISR invites all interested persons to post their ideas concerning this matter. We truely appreciate your input.

Thank you for you comments. ISR.
osito

Credibility of reviews

Post by osito »

As professional teachers and administrators, let us the users of this excellent forum, make up our own minds on an individual basis. Some director reviews have clearly been balanced and rational with a mixture of praise and justified criticism. It does make me smile when a director receives a blanket score of 9 in every category and every word is saying what a wonderful person they are. I suppose directors could submit their own reviews of themselves. Fortunately in 8 years on the international circuit, I've only met one director who would think of doing such a thing!

I welcome this opportunity to both contribute and read opinions, because after all, some of us teachers are making life-changing decisions based on a brief interview and a presumption of honesty.

I for one will be submitting my "pennyworth", both positive and negative.

Osito
osito_mm@hotmail.com
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