interteach wrote:
> I'm in almost full agreement on honoring a contract, but for the first time
> backed out when it was clear I wasn't going to get the help I needed to get
> a complicated visa. Silence, wrong answers, repeated wrong answers, taking
> it up the line didn't do any good - and this was a not-for-profit school. I
> finally decided days before the stated deadline and nearly zero meaningful
> assistance that if this was how they treated my attempts to get there, I
> didn't want to know the rest. It is, ultimately, a two way street. Both
> sides need to show good will and due diligence.
I think this is different. Part of their agreement with you, and part of their commitment to you, is getting you into the country to be able to work.
Individual people - HR or whoever - can make mistakes or not do their job, but overall the school has to meet their end of the bargain and make sure that things get sorted out.
Morals and Contracts
Re: Morals and Contracts
Spawnboy99 wrote:
> Are there morals when it comes to signing a contract and then reneging on
> it? I have been given a contract for an area my family and I are not too
> thrilled about but a great job opportunity.
> The only thing both parties have invested in is time and the role doesn't
> start until August 2023.
Morals? Well, there are consequences. We all know that. Usually you can work around the consequences in the outside world, as there are many options.
The consequences internally may be tougher to handle. Ultimately here the important thing is to be honest with yourself about why you're backing out. You'll learn the most that way. If it's fear, call it fear, and own it. We can't grow by lying to ourselves.
I'm not in a position to tell you what to do regarding this dilemma, as I do not know the complexities of your situation. I would, though, advise you to think deeply and honestly about what led you to this dilemma so that you can try to avoid it in the future. Mind you, I know people who when they sign a contract, do not think at all about backing out, regardless of what comes up. So you are different from them. The question is why, and how can you be more resolute in the future. One thing is certain: You will not want to repeat this behavior, this type of vacillation, because that would be detrimental to both your career and your well being.
> Are there morals when it comes to signing a contract and then reneging on
> it? I have been given a contract for an area my family and I are not too
> thrilled about but a great job opportunity.
> The only thing both parties have invested in is time and the role doesn't
> start until August 2023.
Morals? Well, there are consequences. We all know that. Usually you can work around the consequences in the outside world, as there are many options.
The consequences internally may be tougher to handle. Ultimately here the important thing is to be honest with yourself about why you're backing out. You'll learn the most that way. If it's fear, call it fear, and own it. We can't grow by lying to ourselves.
I'm not in a position to tell you what to do regarding this dilemma, as I do not know the complexities of your situation. I would, though, advise you to think deeply and honestly about what led you to this dilemma so that you can try to avoid it in the future. Mind you, I know people who when they sign a contract, do not think at all about backing out, regardless of what comes up. So you are different from them. The question is why, and how can you be more resolute in the future. One thing is certain: You will not want to repeat this behavior, this type of vacillation, because that would be detrimental to both your career and your well being.
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Spawnboy99
- Posts: 139
- Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:14 pm
Re: Morals and Contracts
@jschott,
Thanks for your response, if you read the first page of the post the location is also an issue more to do with the family makeup which is vital as there will be fewer foreigners but also a specific ethnicity (which I'm not going to go into detail) but this aspect is essential for my family language development and to learn the correct customs of that culture. Different cities in the same country would provide this. Also, the accommodation is an issue as it's onsite— and on another post. I have been overseas teaching for over 18 years and always put my family first, but this is a great opportunity for career growth and development. Just can my family mentally handle it for a couple of years (million-dollar question)
Thanks for your response, if you read the first page of the post the location is also an issue more to do with the family makeup which is vital as there will be fewer foreigners but also a specific ethnicity (which I'm not going to go into detail) but this aspect is essential for my family language development and to learn the correct customs of that culture. Different cities in the same country would provide this. Also, the accommodation is an issue as it's onsite— and on another post. I have been overseas teaching for over 18 years and always put my family first, but this is a great opportunity for career growth and development. Just can my family mentally handle it for a couple of years (million-dollar question)
Re: Morals and Contracts
Spawnboy99 wrote:
> @jschott,
>
> Thanks for your response, if you read the first page of the post the
> location is also an issue more to do with the family makeup which is vital
> as there will be fewer foreigners but also a specific ethnicity (which I'm
> not going to go into detail) but this aspect is essential for my family
> language development and to learn the correct customs of that culture.
> Different cities in the same country would provide this. Also, the
> accommodation is an issue as it's onsite— and on another post. I have been
> overseas teaching for over 18 years and always put my family first, but
> this is a great opportunity for career growth and development. Just can my
> family mentally handle it for a couple of years (million-dollar question)
If you've been offered a contract, you have a choice: sign it or don't sign it. If you have doubts about it, don't sign it. If you do sign it, do your very best to honor the agreement.
An interview process that leads to a contract offer is not a contract; it's an interview process. In the time between the interview and the contract offer, other stuff/offers/considerations could arise, and there's nothing wrong with politely saying no to the actual contract. I have done this several times myself and have even been given subsequent job offers from the same place. It's all in how you decline.
If someone gets pissed off that you said no, well, too bad.
> @jschott,
>
> Thanks for your response, if you read the first page of the post the
> location is also an issue more to do with the family makeup which is vital
> as there will be fewer foreigners but also a specific ethnicity (which I'm
> not going to go into detail) but this aspect is essential for my family
> language development and to learn the correct customs of that culture.
> Different cities in the same country would provide this. Also, the
> accommodation is an issue as it's onsite— and on another post. I have been
> overseas teaching for over 18 years and always put my family first, but
> this is a great opportunity for career growth and development. Just can my
> family mentally handle it for a couple of years (million-dollar question)
If you've been offered a contract, you have a choice: sign it or don't sign it. If you have doubts about it, don't sign it. If you do sign it, do your very best to honor the agreement.
An interview process that leads to a contract offer is not a contract; it's an interview process. In the time between the interview and the contract offer, other stuff/offers/considerations could arise, and there's nothing wrong with politely saying no to the actual contract. I have done this several times myself and have even been given subsequent job offers from the same place. It's all in how you decline.
If someone gets pissed off that you said no, well, too bad.
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secondplace
- Posts: 192
- Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 pm
Re: Comment
PsyGuy wrote:
> AND after you sign, you can choose to go, not to go, or go somewhere else.
Or, be honourable.
As ever, your choice...
Good luck xx
> AND after you sign, you can choose to go, not to go, or go somewhere else.
Or, be honourable.
As ever, your choice...
Good luck xx
Discussion
OR after you sign, you can honorably, choose to go, not to go, or go somewhere else.
Contracts arent pacts, vows, oaths or promises. They are a document that clearly communicates the terms and conditions of obligation and responsibility between parties, including how failure to perform those obligations and responsibilities is defined and the consequences for those failures. They are agreements of communication, nothing more. Nothing requiring your character, integrity or soul be put forward.
Contracts arent pacts, vows, oaths or promises. They are a document that clearly communicates the terms and conditions of obligation and responsibility between parties, including how failure to perform those obligations and responsibilities is defined and the consequences for those failures. They are agreements of communication, nothing more. Nothing requiring your character, integrity or soul be put forward.
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secondplace
- Posts: 192
- Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 pm
Re: Discussion
PsyGuy wrote:
> OR after you sign, you can honorably, choose to go, not to go, or go
> somewhere else.
>
> Contracts arent pacts, vows, oaths or promises. They are a document that
> clearly communicates the terms and conditions of obligation and
> responsibility between parties, including how failure to perform those
> obligations and responsibilities is defined and the consequences for those
> failures. They are agreements of communication, nothing more. Nothing
> requiring your character, integrity or soul be put forward.
[img]https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/a06fd4c9-7 ... 8068db55b3[/img]
> OR after you sign, you can honorably, choose to go, not to go, or go
> somewhere else.
>
> Contracts arent pacts, vows, oaths or promises. They are a document that
> clearly communicates the terms and conditions of obligation and
> responsibility between parties, including how failure to perform those
> obligations and responsibilities is defined and the consequences for those
> failures. They are agreements of communication, nothing more. Nothing
> requiring your character, integrity or soul be put forward.
[img]https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/a06fd4c9-7 ... 8068db55b3[/img]
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secondplace
- Posts: 192
- Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 pm
Re: Discussion
PsyGuy wrote:
> OR after you sign, you can honorably, choose to go, not to go, or go
> somewhere else.
>
> Contracts arent pacts, vows, oaths or promises. They are a document that
> clearly communicates the terms and conditions of obligation and
> responsibility between parties, including how failure to perform those
> obligations and responsibilities is defined and the consequences for those
> failures. They are agreements of communication, nothing more. Nothing
> requiring your character, integrity or soul be put forward.
I honestly can't remember what you've said in the past about your feelings/thoughts about a school doing the same to you?
Do you think a school should act in this way - e.g. drop you like a stone if a better option comes up?
xx
> OR after you sign, you can honorably, choose to go, not to go, or go
> somewhere else.
>
> Contracts arent pacts, vows, oaths or promises. They are a document that
> clearly communicates the terms and conditions of obligation and
> responsibility between parties, including how failure to perform those
> obligations and responsibilities is defined and the consequences for those
> failures. They are agreements of communication, nothing more. Nothing
> requiring your character, integrity or soul be put forward.
I honestly can't remember what you've said in the past about your feelings/thoughts about a school doing the same to you?
Do you think a school should act in this way - e.g. drop you like a stone if a better option comes up?
xx
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secondplace
- Posts: 192
- Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 pm
Re: Reply
PsyGuy wrote:
> @secondplace
>
> Are you claiming ISs dont already do this? Do you know what site youre on,
> because I can direct you to the various and substantial reviews of various
> ISs and leaders.
I'm asking how you would feel if a school did this to you.
Would you just think they were exercising their right to appoint someone better, even after they'd agreed a contract with you?
Does your approach work both ways?
> @secondplace
>
> Are you claiming ISs dont already do this? Do you know what site youre on,
> because I can direct you to the various and substantial reviews of various
> ISs and leaders.
I'm asking how you would feel if a school did this to you.
Would you just think they were exercising their right to appoint someone better, even after they'd agreed a contract with you?
Does your approach work both ways?
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Heliotrope
- Posts: 1171
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: Morals and Contracts
Luckily a large majority of the international schools will not drop you after a contract is signed, and similarly a large majority of teachers honors their contracts. The more one side (schools or teachers) stops doing this, the more the other side will start doing the same, until no one -school or teacher- can be sure of anything until the teacher arrives at the school just before the school year starts.
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secondplace
- Posts: 192
- Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 pm
Re: Morals and Contracts
Heliotrope wrote:
> Luckily a large majority of the international schools will not drop you
> after a contract is signed, and similarly a large majority of teachers
> honors their contracts. The more one side (schools or teachers) stops doing
> this, the more the other side will start doing the same, until no one
> -school or teacher- can be sure of anything until the teacher arrives at
> the school just before the school year starts.
Agreed.
My experience has been this. I've not had schools do me wrong, I've not worked in schools that do that to people and it's not something I would personally do.
Do I know of teachers who have? Yes.
Both sides need to act with scruples and integrity. In my opinion.
xx
> Luckily a large majority of the international schools will not drop you
> after a contract is signed, and similarly a large majority of teachers
> honors their contracts. The more one side (schools or teachers) stops doing
> this, the more the other side will start doing the same, until no one
> -school or teacher- can be sure of anything until the teacher arrives at
> the school just before the school year starts.
Agreed.
My experience has been this. I've not had schools do me wrong, I've not worked in schools that do that to people and it's not something I would personally do.
Do I know of teachers who have? Yes.
Both sides need to act with scruples and integrity. In my opinion.
xx
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secondplace
- Posts: 192
- Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 pm
Re: Discussion
PsyGuy wrote:
> OR after you sign, you can honorably, choose to go, not to go, or go
> somewhere else.
>
> Contracts arent pacts, vows, oaths or promises. They are a document that
> clearly communicates the terms and conditions of obligation and
> responsibility between parties, including how failure to perform those
> obligations and responsibilities is defined and the consequences for those
> failures. They are agreements of communication, nothing more. Nothing
> requiring your character, integrity or soul be put forward.
Still asking - are you happy for both schools and yourself to act in this way?
xx
> OR after you sign, you can honorably, choose to go, not to go, or go
> somewhere else.
>
> Contracts arent pacts, vows, oaths or promises. They are a document that
> clearly communicates the terms and conditions of obligation and
> responsibility between parties, including how failure to perform those
> obligations and responsibilities is defined and the consequences for those
> failures. They are agreements of communication, nothing more. Nothing
> requiring your character, integrity or soul be put forward.
Still asking - are you happy for both schools and yourself to act in this way?
xx