Ex 12,000 USD a Month - Options Now?

Khobar
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Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:27 pm

Ex 12,000 USD a Month - Options Now?

Post by Khobar »

Putting this here as hoping for a better response.

Hey all,

Currently, I am in a bit of a dilemma and would really appreciate any advice that could possibly be given.

My situation is, I left Saudi Arabia over a year ago after working there for eight years at a training centre (not an international school) at a big oil company. I started off teaching there, then became coordinator and was Vice Principal when I left. The money was great (started on 8K USD and maxed out at 12K USD all in) but the politics, toxic environment, backstabbing, living conditions/boredom etc, was soul destroying. Still, I am glad I hung in there for so long and the work experience was great. I returned to the UK a year ago and have since finished a PGCE in Primary Studies. However, since finishing a few weeks ago, I realise that I do not want to stay in the UK for much longer. I would prefer to change career paths rather than work in a school in the UK.

Therefore, taking into account my 8 years of Saudi experience, plus 6 years in Korea (half teaching/half in admin/coordination), along with three years teaching English in Thailand, along with having a PGCE and Master’s degree in Education (TESOL), I am wondering what my options might be?

Just wondering if my Saudi leadership/management experience would count for much/anything? The fact I haven’t done the 2 years post-PGCE teaching in the UK, could that possibly be overlooked by the fact that I have loads of other experience and a MEd in TESOL?

Ideally, I’d be interested in trying to land one of the better paying jobs in China? Does that sound unrealistic? Any other advice about school locations/salary ballparks, etc. would be greatly appreciated. Also, I am in my mid 40s, so I’d also love to try to get back into leadership/management/admin roles. Is that in any way realsitic?
PsyGuy
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Location: Northern Europe

Response

Post by PsyGuy »

Short Answer: Go back to ESOL.

Long Answer:
No.

I dont see that you got QTS when concluding your PGCE?

USD$12K is six figure coin. You can get that in Switzerland and the ME (such as the Kingdom) and its more common to walk into coin like that for executive leadership. You can even find it in senior leadership with an IS with a high cap, but youre not much of an IT if you are one at all. Lets look at your metrics and their utility:

ESOL
8 years ES experience including junior and senior leadership.
6 years casual ET experience in an ES Hagwon.
3 years casual ET experience in an ES
Masters TESOL

IE
PGCE Primary

Thats a nice resume for ESOL, maybe a certification in ESOL but its not really necessary in your case. For an IT in IE you have a whole lot of white space in your resume and not anything near enough to expect a USD$12K/mth salary. There are exceptions. There have been executive leaders from various institutions that walked into senior leadership positions, even executive leadership but not at USD12K/mth. Those are rare exceptions though. Youre ET experience puts you a bit above ITs with truly no experience. A leader/recruiter looks at your resume and gets an IT who knows more and has established practice without having to give you coin for any of it (except the Masters), but not at USD12K/mth. At best, you can spin what you have as a primary ESOL specialist IT and HOD/Coordinator.
If you want that USD$12K/mth youre going to have to either:
1) Go somewhere big like China, get to know someone in ownership and convince them to give you the keys to their new or languishing IS.
2) Apply for DOC or MD positions in ESOL.

Yes that sounds very unrealistic, especially without a credential and without IE experience in leadership.
Khobar
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:27 pm

Re: Ex 12,000 USD a Month - Options Now?

Post by Khobar »

PsyGuy, thanks for the reply. However, I think you misunderstood me.

Firstly, I am not looking to make 12k a month, I was explaining that’s what I made in Saudi. Secondly, I think you are confusing QTS with ECT (formerly NQT). Once a PGCE is successfully completed, you receive QTS at the end of the course (it means that you are now fully licensed to teach and you have successfully fulfilled all parts of your placements - lots of hoops that have been completed). However, to complete ECT (formerly NQT), I would need to work for another 2 years post-PGCE.

Also, I have never worked in a Hagwon. I’ve worked in Universities, public and private schools only.

My question was, what kind of (Primary) International schools and what kind of salary, could I realistically be looking at in China? I’ve no interest whatsoever in working in ESOL/TEFL/ESL/EAL. I’m happy to start off as a Primary International School teacher and then try to work my way into leadership from there.

Thanks!
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Khobar

I am not confusing them. QTS is Qualified Teacher Status by itself it is an Entry grade credential. When you complete an EPP/ITT program (Initial Teacher Training) you are awarded conditional QTS and become an ECT/NQT (Early Career Teacher) when you complete Induction (now two years) you drop the ECT and have regular QTS (a professional grade credential) at which point you are a Career Teacher.

Thats not true. When you complete a PGCE as part of an ITT/EPP program you are awarded QTS. There are PGCE programs that are not part of an ITT/EPP program (once exclusively called PGCEi) but has since grown to include "academic" PGCE programs. These programs have become more common, as such its requisite to inquire if the PGCE program completed was indeed part of an ITT/EPP program and awarded QTS at its completion. Its no longer appropriate to assume that completion of a PGCE program also indicates award of QTS.

That is not true. Completing a PGCE and receiving QTS does not mean you have finished all requirements. You have induction to complete. This is a deficiency, as such you have conditional QTS, the condition being you may not serve in a maintained DS without participating in the Induction process. When you complete Induction successful you will drop the ECT and become a Career Teacher with Regular QTS.

How much of your SK work (and TH) was done in Uni and how much of it in KS/K12 ISs/DSs? Were you dispatch, casual teaching at these KS/K12 DSs/ISs, meaning you taught for a few hours but worked for a dispatch agency or were you appointed on an FTE basis as a direct hire by the DS/IS?

Tier 3 ISs, but you can aim for upper tier 3 ISs. The consensus bar to entry into IE is 2 years post credentialing experience. Your prior ESOL experience isnt worth anything, except that an IS is getting a better value in IT capability than a typical Intern Class IT (you are an Intern Class IT). At that level your experience has some value over those with truly no or little experience. You dont want to teach ESOL so that realistically leaves you with the HRT pathway in primary and you have no TOR experience. Third tier in China is USD$30$-60K; Second tier is USD$60K-90K; First tier is USD$90K-120K, Elite tier is USD$120K+. Youre looking at about the middle of the third tier salary scale of about USD$40K-$50K. The bottom of the third tier in China is more those with much less experience than you (a few years) in ESOL and lack professional edu qualifications and credentials.
cookies4u
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Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:12 am

Re: Ex 12,000 USD a Month - Options Now?

Post by cookies4u »

There's definitely schools that will consider you for leadership positions, it's just a matter of which schools and which positions.

I agree with PG you're most likely looking at HOD/Coordinator type roles at 3rd tier schools, I think you can aim for more than $40-50k though. I've seen a collection of ads for junior leadership roles at ~3rd tier schools paying from 35-45k RMB/month (pre-tax and not counting housing etc.).

35k RMB/mo. works out to the following in USD/year: $62.3k gross, $53.7k net.

45k RMB/mo.: $80k gross, $66.6k net.

Since it's 3rd tier China it's possible some of them are trying to inflate the salary appearance by including housing and everything else. In any case I wouldn't take less than 35k RMB/mo. gross with your experience.

edit: I should add that I've also seen bottom 3rd tier schools offer less than that range for junior leadership, but I don't think they're schools you need to consider.
Khobar
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Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:27 pm

Re: Ex 12,000 USD a Month - Options Now?

Post by Khobar »

@PsyGuy and @cookies4u - thanks a lot for such detailed responses and for all of the info both of you have given. Much appreciated.

Tbh, I’ll backtrack a little and say that I would consider an ESOL/EAL position at an International school, if it were in a leadership/non-teaching (or mostly non-teaching) role and if free tuition were to be provided for my child. Also, to get my foot in the door, I’d consider all Tier 3 options if the package was decent (similar to what cookies typed) if it were in a leadership role. Being brutally honest, I’d love to go down the leadership route from now on, if at all possible. I’m a fairly stable guy and I’d be more than happy to get my head down for a few years, if the right opportunity came along.

For now I’ll focus on China and see what happens. Perhaps one advantage for me is currently I am spending time with my parents as I hadn’t seen them for over 3 years. However, I would be ready and willing to leave for pastures new as soon as a school would want me to.

Thanks again gents.
PsyGuy
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Location: Northern Europe

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Post by PsyGuy »

@ Khobar

I strongly disagree with @cookies4u. Your not going to find leadership in Primary IE. Youre an Intern class IT (youre PASS score is somewhere between 1-2). Why would an IS hire you for leadership? You have zero primary DE or IE experience. You have zero experience with teaching the UK NC, the US NC or the IBs PYP. Youve never been an HRT. Youre ESOL experience, notable that it is, isnt worth anything in IE. Is it possible that some IS sees that and makes you the coordinator for their PT ESOL ETs, sure, but that task is just going to be an added responsibility attached to your HRT appointment, for which your resume is a whole lot of white space. Does that mean it cant happen, no, nothing surprises me anymore. When I see an Intern class or Entry class IT in IE leadership, my question is who are they married to. Could it happen sure, someone wins the lottery too, but my coin is betting against it, and thats pretty close to a sure thing, your looking at hopping on one foot and trying to shoot an arrow through a hoop the size of a gold ball from a km away so that you can get the probability to one in a million, because thats the only way that story happens type of probability.

My salary scale provided previously is for classroom IT appointments.

Your focus is really the third tier, you have very little to offer an IS as a primary HRT, you dont even have the requisite two years post credentialing experience. Mid third tier is what you should aim for if theres some ESOL aspect or angle for you to work. Solely primary HRT though lower third tier, bottom third tier is your range of marketability.

You have a dependent? That makes it worse. Now an IS has to offer double your salary in the form of a tuition/fee waiver/place for your child. Why would an IS do that for an IT with little to offer.

Packages and salaries arent going to be anywhere near what @cookies4u stated for an Intern class IT in a lower third tier primary IS. You will be lucky if you find USD$30K/yr which is below the current starting IT salary now USD$35K for an Entry class IT.
Khobar
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Re: Ex 12,000 USD a Month - Options Now?

Post by Khobar »

@psyguy anything is possible in life. I know teachers at IT schools that have fewer quals than me and that had ESL experience only and landed decent International school gigs. 30K a year? I haven’t made such a low amount since Thailand in 2007. My attitude is very much aim for the moon and stars and see what comes back. I’m in no hurry whatsoever to land a gig. In fact, if I don’t land what my target is, then I’ll happily retire from working in education and change career paths. Having banked like a madman on a 6 figure salary in Saudi for 8 years, thankfully that’s a luxury I can afford.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Khobar

Winning the lottery is possible in life to.

I know those cases to, butt when you look just a little closer at them there was some angle or factor they were able to leverage and most common among that very small group is they 'knew' someone who had an in. There are 3 general avenues into leadership:
1) Grow In: You start at an IS as an IT, you work well with leadership, parents and ownership, and then when there is an opening you get the job because ownership trusts you and leadership and parents like you. This pathway is faster at lower tier ISs, where there is a lot of turnover and longevity often means your only one of the few staff to renew.
2) Work In: You get a M.Ed in Ed.Ld, you add a credential, you build some leadership or management experience and you work your way up into leadership. This may and often requires some work in DE. This is the pathway that accounts for the majority of leadership. Candidates were leadership in DE, and they were hired as leadership in IE.
3) Edge In: You make friends and build a network, maybe you marry into, but someone in ownership likes you and gives you the job, or someone in leadership helps you get into the job. This is the least common path into leadership.
Leadership roles are defined by reports, peer deliverables, or resource budgeting and allocation.
With your resume route three has the most likely chance of working for you in the near future. That is why I wrote in an earlier reply, that you need to get yourself somewhere where you can start making those connections and relationships.

Yeah USD$30K/yr, youre at the bottom of the IE ladder, your previous ESOL experience doesnt have any utility, and youre not even working in it now. You just completed your PGCE and got your QTS so you have about a year ahead that you can do nothing or anything before your resume begins ageing.
The major contributors on the forum get this often, ETs with nice resumes for ESOL who think its worth something in IE, when it isnt. A leader looking at other ITs like you will think better of your capabilities but only compared to other Intern class ITs who have less than you or nothing. Its the equivalent of a global crises where aliens are invading and they need fighter pilots and its one person who flew a crop duster a couple times and another with a few hundred hours playing Microsoft flight simulator. Youre the bottom of the barrel and a better hire but only if its the bottom of the barrel or the ground under the barrel. Otherwise why would some IS hire you at a premium? There are plenty of 20 something with resumes comparable to yours who would love leadership or even classroom IT appointments and they are much cheaper than you.

You asked for advice, and its nutter talk if you think your going to get appointments to ISs on the circuit for leadership roles based on your resume. You just dont have the value for the kind of coin and comp you want. Youre not going to be a professional race car driver just because you have a drivers license and drive a sports car.
Khobar
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Re: Ex 12,000 USD a Month - Options Now?

Post by Khobar »

@PsyGuy hahahahaha. Thanks a lot for all of the laughs you have given me. Seriously, I haven't laughed so much in ages Now, I do have some connections in International Schools and I intend to reach out to these guys soon. Not expecting an 'in' but inshallh, some good advice might be gratefully received! I've just had a nice 6 week vacation, sun, sea and sand and now I'm just about ready to get on the job hunt.

I think you forget one important factor, that there are schools out there that merely want a white face, with decent quals (which I have). I also believe my leadership experience is worth plenty in terms of my current skillset. Does it mean anything/much at most IT schools? Probably not but the way I see it, I only have to be lucky once. One advantage I might have is, my bags are packed and I am ready to go at any time. I agree with you about doing something like an MEd in leadership. However, that's not happening unless I land a non-teaching job in an IS.

Having said all of the above, I do agree with most of what you say. However, if I were to have a defeatist mindset, I'd never in my wildest of dreams have landed a previous job that was paying 12 grand a month. (That would have been nutter thinking/talk)

Apart from leadership/management roles, what other non-teaching roles are there? Academic Counselor?

I'll give it 6-8 months and if something suitable doesn't get landed, then I'll use the Saudi cash to buy a house near my hometown and I'll switch career paths and draw a complete line under teaching and IS education.
PsyGuy
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Location: Northern Europe

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Post by PsyGuy »

@Khobar

Whiteness isnt a rare commodity in IE. Theres a reason why most ITs in ISs are white, they come from a pool of candidates thats mostly white.

You dont have decent qualifications. Not in IE, not compared to other candidates in IE. The entry bar to IE is two years post credentialing experience you dont even have that, youre an intern class IT. Your PGCE and QTS get you in the room and your Masters a band up on the salary scale but your in a room now with a lot of fish that are a lot bigger than you. Youre ESOL resume made you a bigger fish in ESOL, but youre a lake fish in the ocean with sharks now.

Every ET thinks their ESOL experience is worth something. Thats called ego, not value.

Your gig in the Kingdom was your luck shot.

Thats not the advantage you think it is. An IS still has to get you permits and a visa, arrange travel, deal with COVID quarantines, etc. Being local on the ground in the city where you can start tomorrow in the classroom, thats ready to go, thats an advantage.

Yes, that would be nutter talk, but nothing surprises me anymore.

Below senior leadership you have junior leadership and thats the HODs (including subject and grade leads), coordinators, counselor, and sometimes the D.Tech if they arent in senior leadership and sometimes the librarian. As far as professional staff which are the same plane as faculty but dont have instructional duties you have tech. integrators, academic coaches, SPED/SEN/LD, specialists, etc. Sometimes these roles are considered senior faculty, with classroom ITs regular faculty and junior faculty (EAs, TAs, interns, etc.) below them.

Academic Counselor might be a thing. There are more commonly two types of counselors MH (Mental Health) counselors and career counselors. They are both counselors though and in small or medium sized ISs they are likely the same person. Career counselors generally have the same qualifications and credentials as MH counselors but also have experience either as career counselors or experience in a Uni admissions office. Academics in of itself is usually invested at the senior leadership level as the Academic AP/VP/DP or at the junior leadership level as the Academic Coordinator.
cookies4u
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Re: Ex 12,000 USD a Month - Options Now?

Post by cookies4u »

PG, I assume for the purpose of this discussion you're including the many bilingual schools in China that hire foreign teachers and not just the "expat schools"?

I think with the latter I'd be more inclined to agree with you. But the former as you know has more overlap with the ET world, and they tend to count ET experience for a little (or sometimes a lot) more than expat schools do. Basically, I don't think Chinese bilingual school hiring criteria has the level of uniformity necessary to conclude he has 0 (or close to 0) shot at landing something in junior management somewhere.

The challenge might be that the types of schools that may consider him for some type of leadership position are less likely to be willing to hire outside of China right now than some of the more reputable international schools.

My advice to OP would be to download WeChat and find some job groups/add some recruiters, and try to remember all the reasons you love Chinese culture for when they ask why you want to go to China.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@cookies4u

How? The LW has three criteria: leadership, salary/comp, and quality of edu for the child. How does some lower third tier bilingual/EP/EAP IS/ES meet any reasonable interpretation of standards for the edu of the child? If we Venn this I see three circles that dont intersect anywhere unless some serious major luck factor shifts those circles so that they do have some overlapping range. This assumes the LW with their age and presumably appropriate maturity recognizes that the one factor of those three the most sensitive to delay is the childs edu. So yes, the latter. The LW is going to want an IS that has a day program with the language of instruction in English that focuses on subject matter content understanding and mastery, not some bilingual program thats using subject matter instruction as a vehicle for language acquisition. If that was the case than the LW would be better off going back to ESOL, back to the Kingdom and their six figure coin and just pay tuition for an appropriate second tier IS as opposed to fishing for something they just left.

This is why I wrote earlier that the LW needs to get themselves somewhere (China) presumably, so that they can be on site, on the ground with their ear to the road and their eyes open for opportunity they can pounce on while providing real networking. Far, Far more effective than using Wechat, social media, or anything else. Nothing but being there is going to provide the level of ease to an IS.
cookies4u
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Re: Ex 12,000 USD a Month - Options Now?

Post by cookies4u »

Actually, I glossed over the part where he mentioned the child as it wasn't in the OP. Yeah I kind of agree in that case, a lot less likely he can get a leadership position in a school he's going to want to send his kid to.

Not sure the age of the child but FWIW I know that sometimes parents with the means to send their kids to an IS opt for Chinese schools when they're younger because they want them to have the Mandarin immersion, then switch to an IS when they're older. I have no personal experience with this so it's not a a recommendation per se, just an anecdote.
Khobar
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Re: Ex 12,000 USD a Month - Options Now?

Post by Khobar »

Update. Been offered a 6500 USD non teaching position a month (in Asia) plus free education for my kid , along with a 2K USD a month housing allowance+bonuses+flights etc.

Decisions, decisions, hmmmm.
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