Should we pull out of China move?
Re: Should we pull out of China move?
I'm starting to believe you're a troll.
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Chickpea0000
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:49 pm
Re: Should we pull out of China move?
When we accepted the jobs there were less cases globally, less variants, less lockdowns, China was issuing visas and there was no talk of being separated from young kids during quarantine.
Getting into Qatar in August seems more realistic than getting into China. I don't want to be in limbo for the next 12 months. More importantly l don't want to be separated from my family.
Getting into Qatar in August seems more realistic than getting into China. I don't want to be in limbo for the next 12 months. More importantly l don't want to be separated from my family.
Re: Should we pull out of China move?
All of which may be true, but your first post about Qatar had nothing to do with the pandemic.
Your thinking seems quite muddy, and your ethics quite selfish. There are those on this board who will encourage you to think of no one but yourself and family, and damned be any school that falls an inch short of another school's offer. Damned be any commitment you pretended to make, if a better offer comes along. I am not one who believes in this. It's possible to look out for oneself while maintaining professionalism.
If you don't believe you can get into China, and you have no intention of waiting around to find out, then quit now. Make yourself free to consider Qatar or whatever option you want.
There are real people who will be negatively impacted if you go back on your word. The sooner you tell them you're flaking, the less the impact will be, and the fewer people who will be impacted.
Your thinking seems quite muddy, and your ethics quite selfish. There are those on this board who will encourage you to think of no one but yourself and family, and damned be any school that falls an inch short of another school's offer. Damned be any commitment you pretended to make, if a better offer comes along. I am not one who believes in this. It's possible to look out for oneself while maintaining professionalism.
If you don't believe you can get into China, and you have no intention of waiting around to find out, then quit now. Make yourself free to consider Qatar or whatever option you want.
There are real people who will be negatively impacted if you go back on your word. The sooner you tell them you're flaking, the less the impact will be, and the fewer people who will be impacted.
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drosophila
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:56 am
Re: Should we pull out of China move?
U have accepted the offer in Shanghai and now backing off?
This is the reason why I posted on another forum about employers do not hesitate to rescind offer made as teachers are not keeping their contract intact.
This is the reason why I posted on another forum about employers do not hesitate to rescind offer made as teachers are not keeping their contract intact.
Discussion
Boohoo, another leader (@Sid) doesnt like the idea of an IT putting their interests above the interests of some leader or IS. As the LW stated they dont want to be in limbo, so how exactly does dropping the first IS in China provide less limbo, now the IT is in the position where they have dropped an appointment in exchange for an appointment they are only just interviewing for, what if they dont get an offer from the IS in Qatar.
A contract isnt a suicide pact, ITs have to protect their own interests not the interests of the IS because NO ONE else in IE will do that. When those ISs that @Sid speaks so highly of, dropped their ITs contracts by saying 'pandemic' and provided them with all of nothing except an email saying sorry, who was left fending for themselves, but the IT and no one else. This is a job, its not personal, its business and that goes both ways.
Theres nothing "unprofessional" about business, the claim by leaders and recruiters is just that, their claims. There is no global IE code of ethics that ITs have agreed to abide by.
The LW is already in the position of being available to pursue other opportunities. They dont need the first ISs permission.
There will be even more significant real people (the ITs) who will be even more negatively impacted if things dont work out. If things dont work out for the IS they will be negatively impacted by having to fill a vacancy compared to the ITs negative impact of not being able to pay bills, eat, etc.
A contract isnt a suicide pact, ITs have to protect their own interests not the interests of the IS because NO ONE else in IE will do that. When those ISs that @Sid speaks so highly of, dropped their ITs contracts by saying 'pandemic' and provided them with all of nothing except an email saying sorry, who was left fending for themselves, but the IT and no one else. This is a job, its not personal, its business and that goes both ways.
Theres nothing "unprofessional" about business, the claim by leaders and recruiters is just that, their claims. There is no global IE code of ethics that ITs have agreed to abide by.
The LW is already in the position of being available to pursue other opportunities. They dont need the first ISs permission.
There will be even more significant real people (the ITs) who will be even more negatively impacted if things dont work out. If things dont work out for the IS they will be negatively impacted by having to fill a vacancy compared to the ITs negative impact of not being able to pay bills, eat, etc.
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Heliotrope
- Posts: 1171
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: Should we pull out of China move?
drosophila wrote:
> U have accepted the offer in Shanghai and now backing off?
>
> This is the reason why I posted on another forum about employers do not
> hesitate to rescind offer made as teachers are not keeping their contract
> intact.
This is exactly why I really dislike teachers that go back on their word - it affects not only those schools but also the teachers that do.
I've also noticed that the teachers I've known who backed out of a signed contract or broke contract to pursue a better-paying school were usually the ones that weren't well-liked by the rest of the staff to begin with. I'd say good riddance, if it wouldn't impact other teachers negatively.
> U have accepted the offer in Shanghai and now backing off?
>
> This is the reason why I posted on another forum about employers do not
> hesitate to rescind offer made as teachers are not keeping their contract
> intact.
This is exactly why I really dislike teachers that go back on their word - it affects not only those schools but also the teachers that do.
I've also noticed that the teachers I've known who backed out of a signed contract or broke contract to pursue a better-paying school were usually the ones that weren't well-liked by the rest of the staff to begin with. I'd say good riddance, if it wouldn't impact other teachers negatively.
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Chickpea0000
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:49 pm
Re: Should we pull out of China move?
Heliotrope wrote:
>
> This is exactly why I really dislike teachers that go back on their word - it affects
> not only those schools but also the teachers that do.
> I've also noticed that the teachers I've known who backed out of a signed contract or
> broke contract to pursue a better-paying school were usually the ones that weren't
> well-liked by the rest of the staff to begin with. I'd say good riddance, if it
> wouldn't impact other teachers negatively.
Qatar is not a better paying school. The package is significantly inferior. My preference is China, however, getting a visa with two dependents atm is not looking likely. I cannot afford to be unemployed for a significant amount of time.
>
> This is exactly why I really dislike teachers that go back on their word - it affects
> not only those schools but also the teachers that do.
> I've also noticed that the teachers I've known who backed out of a signed contract or
> broke contract to pursue a better-paying school were usually the ones that weren't
> well-liked by the rest of the staff to begin with. I'd say good riddance, if it
> wouldn't impact other teachers negatively.
Qatar is not a better paying school. The package is significantly inferior. My preference is China, however, getting a visa with two dependents atm is not looking likely. I cannot afford to be unemployed for a significant amount of time.
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Heliotrope
- Posts: 1171
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: Should we pull out of China move?
Chickpea0000 wrote:
> Qatar is not a better paying school. The package is significantly inferior. My
> preference is China, however, getting a visa with two dependents atm is not looking
> likely. I cannot afford to be unemployed for a significant amount of time.
What I wrote was in response to what @drosophila wrote.
You already mentioned the salary in Qatar was lower (25%) in a previous reply.
If you prefer Qatar, email the Chinese school tomorrow and give them ample time to find a replacement. Don't ruin it for other teachers. When you signed the contract it was likely not looking much easier to get a visa.
If you want to avoid unemployment or uncertainty, go with the other option you mentioned and stay in the UK.
And have you done some research on how the school in China treated their new (and old) employees last year? That would be quite helpful in predicting how they will treat you if you can't enter China.
I know plenty of teachers who were allowed by their school to teach remotely until they were able to enter the country receiving their full salary. Some even temporarily moved to a country in the same timezone and taught from there.
Other schools fired everyone who didn't make it to China in time.
Both kind of schools are likely to repeat this behaviour.
> Qatar is not a better paying school. The package is significantly inferior. My
> preference is China, however, getting a visa with two dependents atm is not looking
> likely. I cannot afford to be unemployed for a significant amount of time.
What I wrote was in response to what @drosophila wrote.
You already mentioned the salary in Qatar was lower (25%) in a previous reply.
If you prefer Qatar, email the Chinese school tomorrow and give them ample time to find a replacement. Don't ruin it for other teachers. When you signed the contract it was likely not looking much easier to get a visa.
If you want to avoid unemployment or uncertainty, go with the other option you mentioned and stay in the UK.
And have you done some research on how the school in China treated their new (and old) employees last year? That would be quite helpful in predicting how they will treat you if you can't enter China.
I know plenty of teachers who were allowed by their school to teach remotely until they were able to enter the country receiving their full salary. Some even temporarily moved to a country in the same timezone and taught from there.
Other schools fired everyone who didn't make it to China in time.
Both kind of schools are likely to repeat this behaviour.
Re: Should we pull out of China move?
If you have dependents, be careful about China. We have a new staff member who came in the fall and expected their family to be able to follow a few months later. It is now almost March and there are no signs the family will be able to get their visas anytime soon.
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Chickpea0000
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:49 pm
Re: Should we pull out of China move?
teach321 wrote:
> If you have dependents, be careful about China. We have a new staff member
> who came in the fall and expected their family to be able to follow a few
> months later. It is now almost March and there are no signs the family will
> be able to get their visas anytime soon.
I have read that it is unlikely dependent visas will be issued for remainder of 2021. I am not willing to be separated from my family.
> If you have dependents, be careful about China. We have a new staff member
> who came in the fall and expected their family to be able to follow a few
> months later. It is now almost March and there are no signs the family will
> be able to get their visas anytime soon.
I have read that it is unlikely dependent visas will be issued for remainder of 2021. I am not willing to be separated from my family.
Re: Should we pull out of China move?
[quote]
I have read that it is unlikely dependent visas will be issued for remainder of 2021. I am not willing to be separated from my family.
[/quote]
Where did you read that?
I have read that it is unlikely dependent visas will be issued for remainder of 2021. I am not willing to be separated from my family.
[/quote]
Where did you read that?
Disscussion
Why anyone would consider the feelings and position of other ITs in terms of ruining things for them is worth all of nothing, they arent going to do anything for you if the day comes, the music stops and you dont have a chair. To end up where you want your betting that some leaders "hope" will get you in and youll have a job and be able to get your family in all without doing it without a plan B or options, thats basically leaving your fate in the hands of faith. No one in IE will look out for your interests but you.
Re: Should we pull out of China move?
I had 2 dependents with
marriage and birth certificates that were near impossible to learn how and get all legally stamped up in time for my arrival at my new IS in China pre-covid. It was very expensive too and required lots of travel and "what ifs". The sense of security just wasn't even remotely close to where I felt it should be for my family. It was a big gamble and limbo game to play that I was unaware and not really informed of when I signed up. Therefore, I chose to do what I thought was the right thing and notify my new school right away that I was not coming.This was many months before August. I felt awful about it, so I wanted them to have as much time as possible to get a new teacher. This was even before I secured a new position. Big Mistake! I got blacklisted, in a sense, and my family and I paid a significance consequence. In hindsight, if I had of secured a second position first, using the mindset that psyguy is suggesting, by putting family first, then we would not have suffered like we did. We would have been fine, and I am pretty sure the school I backed out on would of been fine too, even if I had of waited to let them know by just a couple weeks longer and secured another job first.
It is an interesting conundrum and I don't think it's a black or white situation. I appreciate both Sid and Psyguy's perspective as they are both valid in context. But look what happened to me using Sid's perspective.
In my opinion, China international schools need to work in a system that secures them and new staff when they hired staff with dependents who have to wait in limbo and gamble on the hopeful possibility of getting full visas in the summer time. Teacher's with dependents need to carefully consider signing early contracts with China international schools when the reality is that they will never be in 90-100% certainty range that they will get visas until the summer months arrive. The international schools certainly will not tell them this.
marriage and birth certificates that were near impossible to learn how and get all legally stamped up in time for my arrival at my new IS in China pre-covid. It was very expensive too and required lots of travel and "what ifs". The sense of security just wasn't even remotely close to where I felt it should be for my family. It was a big gamble and limbo game to play that I was unaware and not really informed of when I signed up. Therefore, I chose to do what I thought was the right thing and notify my new school right away that I was not coming.This was many months before August. I felt awful about it, so I wanted them to have as much time as possible to get a new teacher. This was even before I secured a new position. Big Mistake! I got blacklisted, in a sense, and my family and I paid a significance consequence. In hindsight, if I had of secured a second position first, using the mindset that psyguy is suggesting, by putting family first, then we would not have suffered like we did. We would have been fine, and I am pretty sure the school I backed out on would of been fine too, even if I had of waited to let them know by just a couple weeks longer and secured another job first.
It is an interesting conundrum and I don't think it's a black or white situation. I appreciate both Sid and Psyguy's perspective as they are both valid in context. But look what happened to me using Sid's perspective.
In my opinion, China international schools need to work in a system that secures them and new staff when they hired staff with dependents who have to wait in limbo and gamble on the hopeful possibility of getting full visas in the summer time. Teacher's with dependents need to carefully consider signing early contracts with China international schools when the reality is that they will never be in 90-100% certainty range that they will get visas until the summer months arrive. The international schools certainly will not tell them this.
Re: Should we pull out of China move?
In the end you have to do what is right for you, not the school because they would turn around and do it to you if it fit their agenda. Last summer Shanghai American School dropped a number of teachers who had contracts, including teachers with families. In the fall they then broke contract with all the teachers outside of China by reducing our compensation. Sure, would it suck for the school if you chose to accept the position in Qatar, but at the same time they wouldn't hesitate to drop you like a hot potato if it fit their narrative better.
Re: Should we pull out of China move?
You need to email, text, or write the head of school asking them how many teachers they got into the school during the pandemic. Then, ask to be put into contact with one of those teachers so that you can verify the information. That's my suggestion and I think getting this information will help you make a more informed choice.