Countries/Cities with 100K savings

Heliotrope
Posts: 1009
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Countries/Cities with 100K savings

Post by Heliotrope »

Smokegreynblues wrote:
> unsure wrote:
> > https://www.vis.ac.at/work-at-vis/current-vacancies
> >
> > Page 20 of the recruitment booklet gives their salary scales. Not sure my
> > partner and I could save $100k even if we were both working there, but it
> > does look comfortable.
> What's funny is, the highest tuition mentioned is about 22,000 euros a year. Most
> proper for-profit schools in Asia charge the same fee in the same range as Viena,
> however, the starting salaries are just half of what VIS provides. So even if there
> are huge taxes, it seems fitting to teach there, rather than some city in Asia where
> the tax would be less but salaries half of that. The only benefit of Asia would be
> the low cost of living, but if you were in a big metropolis city, those salaries
> don't mean a thing

Even though your last sentence puzzles me (salaries always mean something, you just need to know cost of living as well), I would like to point out that those Asian for profit school will usually also pay for housing in addition to that salary, and might leave you with more to save at the end of the month. I don't think anyone applies to VIS in the hopes of banking a lot of money.
The reasons I would choose VIS over most or all Asian for-profit schools is that (a) it's likely a better school to teach at, (b) it's likely a better school for kids, (c) Vienna is one of the nicest cities I know
And you can't really lump the whole of Asia together as having low cost of living - Tokyo, Singapore, Seoul and Hong Kong all have a higher cost of living than cities like Rome, Hamburg and Barcelona. That being said, most of Asia does have a significantly higher COL than Western Europe.
Smokegreynblues
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:50 pm

Re: Countries/Cities with 100K savings

Post by Smokegreynblues »

Heliotrope wrote:
> Smokegreynblues wrote:
> > unsure wrote:
> > > https://www.vis.ac.at/work-at-vis/current-vacancies
> > >
> > > Page 20 of the recruitment booklet gives their salary scales. Not sure my
> > > partner and I could save $100k even if we were both working there, but it
> > > does look comfortable.
> > What's funny is, the highest tuition mentioned is about 22,000 euros a year.
> Most
> > proper for-profit schools in Asia charge the same fee in the same range as
> Viena,
> > however, the starting salaries are just half of what VIS provides. So even if
> there
> > are huge taxes, it seems fitting to teach there, rather than some city in Asia
> where
> > the tax would be less but salaries half of that. The only benefit of Asia would
> be
> > the low cost of living, but if you were in a big metropolis city, those salaries
> > don't mean a thing
>
> Even though your last sentence puzzles me (salaries always mean something, you just
> need to know cost of living as well), I would like to point out that those Asian for
> profit school will usually also pay for housing in addition to that salary, and might
> leave you with more to save at the end of the month. I don't think anyone applies to
> VIS in the hopes of banking a lot of money.
> The reasons I would choose VIS over most or all Asian for-profit schools is that (a)
> it's likely a better school to teach at, (b) it's likely a better school for kids,
> (c) Vienna is one of the nicest cities I know
> And you can't really lump the whole of Asia together as having low cost of living -
> Tokyo, Singapore, Seoul and Hong Kong all have a higher cost of living than cities
> like Rome, Hamburg and Barcelona. That being said, most of Asia does have a
> significantly higher COL than Western Europe.


Thank you, I didn't know it was common for WE schools to have no housing as a norm. It might be the norm in Asia as of now, but it isn't unheard of benefits such as that being reduced or taxed. When I said it didn't mean anything, as to "saving potential" as mentioned in the thread topic.
BM12
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:16 pm

Re: Countries/Cities with 100K savings

Post by BM12 »

Maybe I should have said Southeast Asia instead of Asia, but having worked in Europe and looking at the VIS salaries (taxed at 55%) I am making significantly more money per month (with a good housing allowance and all taxes paid for by the non profit-school) at the moment. The cost of living in my current country and capital city (Southeast Asia) is also a lot lower than Austria, which means I save even more.

You are saying starting salaries in Asia are less than half, but that is exactly the case with the VIS salaries. They are under half of what is said in the brochure. Again, they are taxed at 55%. Let's say you enter on step 15 with a salary of € 80k a year. That means your actual salary is € 36k a year. There are some tax benefits and family allowances, so let's round it out at about 4000 USD a month. That will still give you a nice life in Vienna, but save? Not that much. You will probably pay at least a 1000 to 1800 dollars a month on housing, depending on family size. The only way I can see you save some money is if you are a teaching couple, preferably without kids. You do get a decent retirement contribution, so that is something at least.

You are correct that some schools in Asia do tax the housing allowance (like my previous school in another Asian country did).

In my mind, you will work for a school like VIS because it is a great school, Vienna is absolutely amazing and you can live in Europe. You will live a nice life, but you will not save a lot of money. I also enjoy living in my current country however and I have the option to save a lot of money. It all comes down to what is important but you will not go to Vienna to make bank.
secondplace
Posts: 138
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 pm

Re: Countries/Cities with 100K savings

Post by secondplace »

In Western Europe it's almost always choose 2 out of 3 of:

- savings
- lifestyle (eating out etc.)
- travel
unsure
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:15 pm

Re: Countries/Cities with 100K savings

Post by unsure »

BM12 wrote:
> in Europe and looking at the VIS salaries (taxed at 55%)

> Again, they are taxed at 55%. Let's say you enter on step 15 with a salary of € 80k a year. That means your actual salary is € 36k a
> year. There are some tax benefits and family allowances, so let's round it out at about 4000 USD a month.


It says that you keep 55% as disposable income - so on €80k per year you keep €44k which is about $52k.
BM12
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:16 pm

Re: Countries/Cities with 100K savings

Post by BM12 »

My bad and thank you for the correction. Though I feel my overall point still stands, that is indeed a bit better. Just want to stress it is not a bad pay for Europe, though I would still prefer to stay in my current Southeast Asian country for the savings potential. Obviously Vienna is great to live in, so it would still be good after an extended period saving money elsewhere. There is some money to be saved at VIS too, just not as much as in some other locations.
sid
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:44 am

Re: Countries/Cities with 100K savings

Post by sid »

How is it the assumption made that VIS is automatically a better school than anything in Asia? This doesn’t strike me as enlightened thinking.
Heliotrope
Posts: 1009
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Countries/Cities with 100K savings

Post by Heliotrope »

sid wrote:
> How is it the assumption made that VIS is automatically a better school
> than anything in Asia? This doesn’t strike me as enlightened thinking.

It was about for-profit schools that pay half of what VIS does, so not 'anything in Asia'.

Btw, the last sentence in my previous post should have been:
"That being said, most of Asia does have a significantly *LOWER* COL than Western Europe."
Thames Pirate
Posts: 1131
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am

Re: Countries/Cities with 100K savings

Post by Thames Pirate »

I would actually argue that schools in Asia are often better for kids. Depending on your definition of "best for teachers," they might be better for teachers, too.

Schools in WE often have very ossified systems. Strong labor laws in WE mean schools generally have to offer a permanent contract after the initial two years. At that point it gets very hard to get rid of teachers, and they can become complacent, passive aggressive, defiant, etc. They frequently "go native"--not that living like a local is the problem per se, but that they no longer think intentionally in a way that matches or at least is sympathetic to the more transient nature of their students. You will hear things like "well, this is ________, and that's how things are done here." These teachers never leave, and they build little kingdoms in these schools--becoming department heads, coordinators, etc. When new teachers come in from wonderful schools elsewhere and try doing something new--teaching a unit that hasn't been taught before, starting a new club, offering a new way to structure a program or a new initiative--they get territorial, resistant ("that's not how we do it here"), and subsequently hostile to the people proposing the idea. So the energetic and truly international teachers give up and either adapt and lay low to avoid conflicts or move on to new schools. So you end up with high turnover among newer staff and extremely low turnover for more established staff--not a good way to be dynamic and adapt to changes in the field.

This ossification of systems rubs off on students, and you have the same tired clubs with five kids, the same tired forms of scheduling, the same curriculum, the same field trips, the same events . . . . Nothing WRONG with it, but it is not dynamic or energetic. Your swim coach might have tons of experience, but by year 22 they might not be excited about the upcoming meet. Your 9th grade humanities teacher is teaching the unit on glaciers that they have always taught, regardless of how glacial the unit is. Your primary school teachers might not care whether or not the kids know how to type or use basic programs on the computer but might cling tightly to that cursive curriculum. The DP English students WILL study Oedipus and Chronicle of a Death Foretold, and don't try bringing in any Mats'eliso Lesupi. The quality of the education is based on what kids make of it, and the standard is mediocre for most kids.

It takes REALLY strong leadership to prevent this or to combat it once it's established. Sadly many--but by no means all--of the "top" (older, established, better paying) schools in Europe look like this.

There are plenty of good schools in Europe--but the assumption that because it's in Vienna it's better is absolute rubbish. VIS might be the ossified European school described above. It might actually be a dynamic place. But we can't know based on its location or its salary.
fine dude
Posts: 608
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:12 pm
Location: SE Asia

Re: Countries/Cities with 100K savings

Post by fine dude »

Agree 100% with TP. Come to SE Asia if you want to grow as a professional. You can easily afford European vacations if you can make it to the top tier schools in SEA.
Heliotrope
Posts: 1009
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Countries/Cities with 100K savings

Post by Heliotrope »

Again, there's no assumption that because it's in Vienna it's better. I said that VIS was likely better than most 'Asian for-profit schools that pay half of what VIS does', because that's what @Smokegreynblues was comparing it with.
70% of the schools on my shortlist (as a teacher and as a parent) are Asian. Despite not being fond of for-profit schools, I do know a few for-profit schools in Asia that I would pick over VIS, but they all pay a lot more than half of what VIS pays.
There are only a few schools in Europe that I would consider, precisely for the reasons @Thames Pirate mentioned.
shadowjack
Posts: 2066
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:49 am

Re: Countries/Cities with 100K savings

Post by shadowjack »

Smokegreynblues wrote:
> unsure wrote:
> > https://www.vis.ac.at/work-at-vis/current-vacancies
> >
> > Page 20 of the recruitment booklet gives their salary scales. Not sure my
> > partner and I could save $100k even if we were both working there, but it
> > does look comfortable.
> What's funny is, the highest tuition mentioned is about 22,000 euros a year. Most
> proper for-profit schools in Asia charge the same fee in the same range as Viena,
> however, the starting salaries are just half of what VIS provides. So even if there
> are huge taxes, it seems fitting to teach there, rather than some city in Asia where
> the tax would be less but salaries half of that. The only benefit of Asia would be
> the low cost of living, but if you were in a big metropolis city, those salaries
> don't mean a thing

Assuming you want to work at a "proper, for-profit school".
Thames Pirate
Posts: 1131
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am

Re: Countries/Cities with 100K savings

Post by Thames Pirate »

fine dude wrote:
> Agree 100% with TP. Come to SE Asia if you want to grow as a professional.
> You can easily afford European vacations if you can make it to the top tier
> schools in SEA.

To be fair, that isn't quite what I said. I said that many schools in WE are ossified and many in Asia are more dynamic. Naturally there are good and bad in both regions. Find the good schools if you want to grow as a professional.

And to be fair, the general rule of thumb is that for profits and newer schools are not as good as the established ones, but not only are there exceptions, but I think those exceptions are more common in Europe.
PsyGuy
Posts: 10172
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Discussion

Post by PsyGuy »

Disagree with @Heliotrope while salaries matter, they matter more than any other factor, you need to know your cost of living not someone elses. I do agree thought hat there are expensive regions of Asia to live in including SG, JP, HK.

I agree with @secondplace, its very difficult to find everything among an ITs priority list whatever they are. Usually something has to be sacrificed.

Disagree with @Sid, of course Vienna is better than anything in Asia, its Western Europe.

@Smokegreynblues

Generally neither housing nor a housing allowance are provided in the WE and most other parts of the EUR.

@Thames Pirate
No dont have to default to some expired or retired contracts. Just using the Vienna example. Step 24 is €98,120.48 for two ITs thats €196,260.96, taxes are about 45% leaving €107,943.52. Converting that into USD because the LW wants 100K USD not Euros is USD$126,712.20 subtract 100K USD leaves USD$26,712.20 which back into Euros is €22,755.57, which isnt too hard to live off. I dont even have to mitigate housing. Looking at Numbeo: a 1LDK apartment outside the CBD is €675/mth, Utilities including internet are about €200/mth, monthly metro for two is €94/mth, mobile for two is about €120/mth. thats €1,089/mth or €13,068/yr leaving €9,687.57/yr or €807.29/mth to eat and live off of. Thats certainly doable, so yes you can save USD$100K.

I wouldnt argue that Asia is better than the WE or EUR. What you call "ossified" i call a focus on classical education and learning. Whats wrong with doing things how weve always done them. Why meddle with something that works and isnt broken? Maybe these new ITs arent coming from such wonderful ISs with their new ideas. Change isnt always better, and change for the sake of change is rarely better. ITs should be hostile to newcomers that are trying to sabotage the current way of doing things.

Changes in the field, whats really changed? That sounds like pop.ed. and nothing more than new marketing and branding for old ideas.

Whats wrong with the same tired clubs, whats tiring about them? That some new IT finds them uninspired, thats only their opinion.
Why does the IS environment have to be dynamic and energetic, and how does spending energy on new processes make it better just because its different?
Whats wrong with learning cursive writing?
Whats wrong with Oedipus and Chronicle of a Death Foretold?
Why would leadership want to prevent this? Whats wrong with a classical approach to curriculum and learning? Its not like these are ITs are disregarding the curriculum and going rogue.

You keep saying "theres nothing wrong with this" and then go on to trash it anyway.
Heliotrope
Posts: 1009
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Discussion

Post by Heliotrope »

PsyGuy wrote:
> Disagree with @Heliotrope while salaries matter, they matter more than any
> other factor, you need to know your cost of living not someone elses. I do
> agree thought hat there are expensive regions of Asia to live in including
> SG, JP, HK.

Sorry, how exactly are you disagreeing with me?
I said that salaries matter, as well as cost of living. What of that do you disagree with?
I would advise to use Numbeo.com to figure out how much you would likely spend a month, subtract that from the salary you think you would earn, and see what you're left with to save each month, factoring in the benefits.
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