Hi All,
Just read the following article where it claims that there are major law changes coming into effect for teachers wishing to work in China.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/a ... -national/
Could this be the beginning of the end for international teachers as there will be legal ramifications for talking about whatever the Chinese government does not like that month....
Does anyone have any other info on this? Is it real?
Beginning Of The End for China Foreign Teachers?
Response
No, the article itself explains it well enough. ITs will just have to be a little more careful and aware of what they say, and ISs will look a little more Chinese. Maybe a new position like community liaison or something. A couple dismissals and deportations to show they mean business, and then everyone will adapt and it will be business as usual. IE isnt going to leave China, theres too much coin in it and while nationalism supersedes education, nothing beats coin in China.
Re: Beginning Of The End for China Foreign Teachers?
The 20 hours of indoctrination, excuse me PD, might scare some off. Where we pull that amount of time from baffles me, perhaps Saturday PD here we come.
Re: Beginning Of The End for China Foreign Teachers?
China cares more about control than coin. Look at what happened in HK. They sacrificed a lot of coin for more control.
As the article states, China will continue to regulate international schools to such a restricted degree that they will either turn Chinese or close. I wouldn't be surprised if they close the foreign passport loophole for students, which would drastically limit the amount of eligible students who can attend international schools. I knew of an international school that had 80% of their students from Egypt, they were all Chinese and had most likely never been to Egypt.
As the article states, China will continue to regulate international schools to such a restricted degree that they will either turn Chinese or close. I wouldn't be surprised if they close the foreign passport loophole for students, which would drastically limit the amount of eligible students who can attend international schools. I knew of an international school that had 80% of their students from Egypt, they were all Chinese and had most likely never been to Egypt.
Re: Beginning Of The End for China Foreign Teachers?
As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing more hypocritical than many of these international educators who drone on ad nauseum about social justice, BLM, etc., and then take jobs in China simply because of the money on offer. If you would sell out your main values and beliefs for 30 pieces of silver that easily then that is truly pathetic.
China wants to be isolated. I say let them.
China wants to be isolated. I say let them.
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Psychometrika
- Posts: 74
- Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:08 pm
Re: Beginning Of The End for China Foreign Teachers?
t_rock wrote:
> As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing more hypocritical than many of
> these international educators who drone on ad nauseum about social justice,
> BLM, etc., and then take jobs in China simply because of the money on
> offer. If you would sell out your main values and beliefs for 30 pieces of
> silver that easily then that is truly pathetic.
>
> China wants to be isolated. I say let them.
I seem to recall you posting a few months ago about a job you took in China for this year. Seems like that deal broke down due to COVID and now you want to virtue signal? Sheesh.
Back on topic, the current trend in China is worrisome. As a US citizen the escalation of tensions and recent closings of consulates does not bode well. Adding 20 hours of propaganda is not going to help either. That said, the international teaching sector (particularly English teaching) in China has been rather sketchy for quite some time. Although I don’t necessarily agree with their approach I can’t blame them for wanting to clean things up.
> As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing more hypocritical than many of
> these international educators who drone on ad nauseum about social justice,
> BLM, etc., and then take jobs in China simply because of the money on
> offer. If you would sell out your main values and beliefs for 30 pieces of
> silver that easily then that is truly pathetic.
>
> China wants to be isolated. I say let them.
I seem to recall you posting a few months ago about a job you took in China for this year. Seems like that deal broke down due to COVID and now you want to virtue signal? Sheesh.
Back on topic, the current trend in China is worrisome. As a US citizen the escalation of tensions and recent closings of consulates does not bode well. Adding 20 hours of propaganda is not going to help either. That said, the international teaching sector (particularly English teaching) in China has been rather sketchy for quite some time. Although I don’t necessarily agree with their approach I can’t blame them for wanting to clean things up.
Re: Beginning Of The End for China Foreign Teachers?
Many of the same China bashing losers on this thread with their same anti-China ilk and wrong headed arguments. I usually just chuckle and ignore but the latest phrase really irritates me: rising tensions between the States and China.
Just so we are clear, these rising tensions are Trumps effort to distract his muddle headed base of tRumpsters from his failed presidency. It’s as simple as that. The current tensions between the States and China are 100% on the USA and once Trump is gone, relations will return to normal and many of those now bashing China will once again be lining up for that Z visa because China offers the best pay, the best students and the best living conditions for ITs than anywhere else in the world.
Just so we are clear, these rising tensions are Trumps effort to distract his muddle headed base of tRumpsters from his failed presidency. It’s as simple as that. The current tensions between the States and China are 100% on the USA and once Trump is gone, relations will return to normal and many of those now bashing China will once again be lining up for that Z visa because China offers the best pay, the best students and the best living conditions for ITs than anywhere else in the world.
Re: Beginning Of The End for China Foreign Teachers?
Gotta love how politics always gets pulled into most threads these days.
It's pretty obvious that governments when under pressure become more desperate.
I'm also aware of the large want of international teachers where jobs often outmatch supply when it comes to quality teachers. There are just that many schools in China as China is just that large.
I've spoken to many admin at the more foreign expat schools in China before COVID-19 and they were having a lot of trouble getting quality staff along with new students. The hollowing out expat families and overseas companies slowly moving to cheaper countries of production forced this. COVID-19 will only speed up this progress. I'm expecting to see a hollowing out of the 2nd & 3rd Tier true international schools in China and the only medium term job safety will be in Chinese schools.
The real question to ask is how will international curriculum such as the IB - specifically looking at TOK. The changes of "not upsetting a government" is a tad bit orwellion and can potentially stop some DP classes from covering certain topics which will affect the IB's bottom line.
I've worked in democracies, dictatorships and some in between and what scares me the most is this belief in "purity" when it comes with these potential changes in China. You can only see and cover the Chinese mindset - which is Marxist/Leninist with Chinese characteristics. Reading Tombstone by Yang Jisheng gives a great outlook on this.
The comment of some people about anti-trumpers moving to China sadly is true. The US has major problems - but China has their own. It really gets back to purity. The anti-trumpers believe only their own world view and no other is allowed. It sounds a bit like how the more hard core "Trump fans" or "50 cent army" would think. Obey my dictates or else......
The main aim of this thread was to:
(1) See if it was true - there is a lot on conjecture on reporting at the moment.
(2) Look at the medium to long term impact (for qualified teachers) and the industry in general
On the comment about having the best pay in the world and best students. The answers is a hard no. Before COVID-19 a lot of the better international schools in China were significantly raising their wages as they were struggling to hire quality staff due to China starting to be seen as a hardship post. Chinese students can be good - but other students beat them hands down. Think Singaporean, Korean, Japanese, Taiwanese. I guess let the flame wars begin.....
It's pretty obvious that governments when under pressure become more desperate.
I'm also aware of the large want of international teachers where jobs often outmatch supply when it comes to quality teachers. There are just that many schools in China as China is just that large.
I've spoken to many admin at the more foreign expat schools in China before COVID-19 and they were having a lot of trouble getting quality staff along with new students. The hollowing out expat families and overseas companies slowly moving to cheaper countries of production forced this. COVID-19 will only speed up this progress. I'm expecting to see a hollowing out of the 2nd & 3rd Tier true international schools in China and the only medium term job safety will be in Chinese schools.
The real question to ask is how will international curriculum such as the IB - specifically looking at TOK. The changes of "not upsetting a government" is a tad bit orwellion and can potentially stop some DP classes from covering certain topics which will affect the IB's bottom line.
I've worked in democracies, dictatorships and some in between and what scares me the most is this belief in "purity" when it comes with these potential changes in China. You can only see and cover the Chinese mindset - which is Marxist/Leninist with Chinese characteristics. Reading Tombstone by Yang Jisheng gives a great outlook on this.
The comment of some people about anti-trumpers moving to China sadly is true. The US has major problems - but China has their own. It really gets back to purity. The anti-trumpers believe only their own world view and no other is allowed. It sounds a bit like how the more hard core "Trump fans" or "50 cent army" would think. Obey my dictates or else......
The main aim of this thread was to:
(1) See if it was true - there is a lot on conjecture on reporting at the moment.
(2) Look at the medium to long term impact (for qualified teachers) and the industry in general
On the comment about having the best pay in the world and best students. The answers is a hard no. Before COVID-19 a lot of the better international schools in China were significantly raising their wages as they were struggling to hire quality staff due to China starting to be seen as a hardship post. Chinese students can be good - but other students beat them hands down. Think Singaporean, Korean, Japanese, Taiwanese. I guess let the flame wars begin.....
Re: Beginning Of The End for China Foreign Teachers?
sciteach wrote:
> Gotta love how politics always gets pulled into most threads these days.
>
> It's pretty obvious that governments when under pressure become more
> desperate.
>
> I'm also aware of the large want of international teachers where jobs often
> outmatch supply when it comes to quality teachers. There are just that many
> schools in China as China is just that large.
>
> I've spoken to many admin at the more foreign expat schools in China before
> COVID-19 and they were having a lot of trouble getting quality staff along
> with new students. The hollowing out expat families and overseas companies
> slowly moving to cheaper countries of production forced this. COVID-19 will
> only speed up this progress. I'm expecting to see a hollowing out of the
> 2nd & 3rd Tier true international schools in China and the only medium
> term job safety will be in Chinese schools.
>
> The real question to ask is how will international curriculum such as the
> IB - specifically looking at TOK. The changes of "not upsetting a
> government" is a tad bit orwellion and can potentially stop some DP
> classes from covering certain topics which will affect the IB's bottom
> line.
>
> I've worked in democracies, dictatorships and some in between and what
> scares me the most is this belief in "purity" when it comes with
> these potential changes in China. You can only see and cover the Chinese
> mindset - which is Marxist/Leninist with Chinese characteristics. Reading
> Tombstone by Yang Jisheng gives a great outlook on this.
>
> The comment of some people about anti-trumpers moving to China sadly is
> true. The US has major problems - but China has their own. It really gets
> back to purity. The anti-trumpers believe only their own world view and no
> other is allowed. It sounds a bit like how the more hard core "Trump
> fans" or "50 cent army" would think. Obey my dictates or
> else......
>
> The main aim of this thread was to:
>
> (1) See if it was true - there is a lot on conjecture on reporting at the
> moment.
> (2) Look at the medium to long term impact (for qualified teachers) and the
> industry in general
>
> On the comment about having the best pay in the world and best students.
> The answers is a hard no. Before COVID-19 a lot of the better international
> schools in China were significantly raising their wages as they were
> struggling to hire quality staff due to China starting to be seen as a
> hardship post. Chinese students can be good - but other students beat them
> hands down. Think Singaporean, Korean, Japanese, Taiwanese. I guess let the
> flame wars begin.....
I’m impressed with how many words it takes you to say nothing.
By the way, I guess you missed the memo that Taiwan is actually part of China.
> Gotta love how politics always gets pulled into most threads these days.
>
> It's pretty obvious that governments when under pressure become more
> desperate.
>
> I'm also aware of the large want of international teachers where jobs often
> outmatch supply when it comes to quality teachers. There are just that many
> schools in China as China is just that large.
>
> I've spoken to many admin at the more foreign expat schools in China before
> COVID-19 and they were having a lot of trouble getting quality staff along
> with new students. The hollowing out expat families and overseas companies
> slowly moving to cheaper countries of production forced this. COVID-19 will
> only speed up this progress. I'm expecting to see a hollowing out of the
> 2nd & 3rd Tier true international schools in China and the only medium
> term job safety will be in Chinese schools.
>
> The real question to ask is how will international curriculum such as the
> IB - specifically looking at TOK. The changes of "not upsetting a
> government" is a tad bit orwellion and can potentially stop some DP
> classes from covering certain topics which will affect the IB's bottom
> line.
>
> I've worked in democracies, dictatorships and some in between and what
> scares me the most is this belief in "purity" when it comes with
> these potential changes in China. You can only see and cover the Chinese
> mindset - which is Marxist/Leninist with Chinese characteristics. Reading
> Tombstone by Yang Jisheng gives a great outlook on this.
>
> The comment of some people about anti-trumpers moving to China sadly is
> true. The US has major problems - but China has their own. It really gets
> back to purity. The anti-trumpers believe only their own world view and no
> other is allowed. It sounds a bit like how the more hard core "Trump
> fans" or "50 cent army" would think. Obey my dictates or
> else......
>
> The main aim of this thread was to:
>
> (1) See if it was true - there is a lot on conjecture on reporting at the
> moment.
> (2) Look at the medium to long term impact (for qualified teachers) and the
> industry in general
>
> On the comment about having the best pay in the world and best students.
> The answers is a hard no. Before COVID-19 a lot of the better international
> schools in China were significantly raising their wages as they were
> struggling to hire quality staff due to China starting to be seen as a
> hardship post. Chinese students can be good - but other students beat them
> hands down. Think Singaporean, Korean, Japanese, Taiwanese. I guess let the
> flame wars begin.....
I’m impressed with how many words it takes you to say nothing.
By the way, I guess you missed the memo that Taiwan is actually part of China.
-
Heliotrope
- Posts: 1171
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: Beginning Of The End for China Foreign Teachers?
@fangpiren is just a troll.
Reading that China supposedly has "the best living conditions" made me chuckle. Were I to have that chuckle outdoors in China, it would have been followed by a cough due to the air pollution, and the chuckle would be recorded by the omnipresent Orwellian surveillance system. Yes, ITs can have a comfortable life in China, but at a price.
And I disliked China's government long before I disliked Trump, as it's very possible (and very logical) to dislike both. China's social credit system, their treatment of the Uyghurs, the way they're dealing with Hong Kong, their behaviour in the South China Sea, and a bunch of other things are all very worrying. Just like a lot of what Trump does is very worrying. Luckily the US still has elections, albeit flawed (voter suppression, etc.) and journalists are still able to write what they want about those in power in the US.
If I were (for example) a history teacher I wouldn't be able to teach it properly in China.
I imagine if China ever were to attack and conquer Taiwan that would take Taiwan of many ITs short lists.
Reading that China supposedly has "the best living conditions" made me chuckle. Were I to have that chuckle outdoors in China, it would have been followed by a cough due to the air pollution, and the chuckle would be recorded by the omnipresent Orwellian surveillance system. Yes, ITs can have a comfortable life in China, but at a price.
And I disliked China's government long before I disliked Trump, as it's very possible (and very logical) to dislike both. China's social credit system, their treatment of the Uyghurs, the way they're dealing with Hong Kong, their behaviour in the South China Sea, and a bunch of other things are all very worrying. Just like a lot of what Trump does is very worrying. Luckily the US still has elections, albeit flawed (voter suppression, etc.) and journalists are still able to write what they want about those in power in the US.
If I were (for example) a history teacher I wouldn't be able to teach it properly in China.
I imagine if China ever were to attack and conquer Taiwan that would take Taiwan of many ITs short lists.
Re: Beginning Of The End for China Foreign Teachers?
[quote=Heliotrope post_id=59340 time=1595911727 user_id=229797]
@fangpiren is just a troll.
Reading that China supposedly has "the best living conditions" made me chuckle. Were I to have that chuckle outdoors in China, it would have been followed by a cough due to the air pollution, and the chuckle would be recorded by the omnipresent Orwellian surveillance system. Yes, ITs can have a comfortable life in China, but at a price.
And I disliked China's government long before I disliked Trump, as it's very possible (and very logical) to dislike both. China's social credit system, their treatment of the Uyghurs, the way they're dealing with Hong Kong, their behaviour in the South China Sea, and a bunch of other things are all very worrying. Just like a lot of what Trump does is very worrying. Luckily the US still has elections, albeit flawed (voter suppression, etc.) and journalists are still able to write what they want about those in power in the US.
If I were (for example) a history teacher I wouldn't be able to teach it properly in China.
I imagine if China ever were to attack and conquer Taiwan that would take Taiwan of many ITs short lists.
[/quote]
Of course anyone who enjoys living in China must be a troll or so heliotrope’s sloppy logic goes. I won’t waste my time on the majority of what helioslop said because it’s a waste of time. I will reiterate that Taiwan is part of China so words like attack and conquer have no meaning here. It would be like Washington attacking and conquering Hawaii. Mainland, Taiwan and Hong Kong are all one and the same country.
No wonder China feels it has to educate foreign teachers! Here are already two on this thread that don’t know Taiwan is an island province of China.
@fangpiren is just a troll.
Reading that China supposedly has "the best living conditions" made me chuckle. Were I to have that chuckle outdoors in China, it would have been followed by a cough due to the air pollution, and the chuckle would be recorded by the omnipresent Orwellian surveillance system. Yes, ITs can have a comfortable life in China, but at a price.
And I disliked China's government long before I disliked Trump, as it's very possible (and very logical) to dislike both. China's social credit system, their treatment of the Uyghurs, the way they're dealing with Hong Kong, their behaviour in the South China Sea, and a bunch of other things are all very worrying. Just like a lot of what Trump does is very worrying. Luckily the US still has elections, albeit flawed (voter suppression, etc.) and journalists are still able to write what they want about those in power in the US.
If I were (for example) a history teacher I wouldn't be able to teach it properly in China.
I imagine if China ever were to attack and conquer Taiwan that would take Taiwan of many ITs short lists.
[/quote]
Of course anyone who enjoys living in China must be a troll or so heliotrope’s sloppy logic goes. I won’t waste my time on the majority of what helioslop said because it’s a waste of time. I will reiterate that Taiwan is part of China so words like attack and conquer have no meaning here. It would be like Washington attacking and conquering Hawaii. Mainland, Taiwan and Hong Kong are all one and the same country.
No wonder China feels it has to educate foreign teachers! Here are already two on this thread that don’t know Taiwan is an island province of China.
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secondplace
- Posts: 192
- Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 pm
Re: Beginning Of The End for China Foreign Teachers?
PRC or ROC?
Seriously though, in terms of impact on schools and teachers I would think that it will vary greatly depending on how many Chinese students are enrolled in the school.
If none, then I think this could be a 'light touch' requirement. If, say 25% including Chinese on foreign passports, then it will be more stringent. If mostly Chinese students then it could be quite full on.
Been a while since I was there, and things do change quickly. I suspect as well that, right now, US passport holding teachers may have a harder time.
Seriously though, in terms of impact on schools and teachers I would think that it will vary greatly depending on how many Chinese students are enrolled in the school.
If none, then I think this could be a 'light touch' requirement. If, say 25% including Chinese on foreign passports, then it will be more stringent. If mostly Chinese students then it could be quite full on.
Been a while since I was there, and things do change quickly. I suspect as well that, right now, US passport holding teachers may have a harder time.
Re: Beginning Of The End for China Foreign Teachers?
secondplace wrote:
> Seriously though, in terms of impact on schools and teachers I would think
> that it will vary greatly depending on how many Chinese students are
> enrolled in the school.
>
> If none, then I think this could be a 'light touch' requirement. If, say
> 25% including Chinese on foreign passports, then it will be more stringent.
> If mostly Chinese students then it could be quite full on.
I think you are spot on the money here. Expat schools have been hollowed out (in number of students) but this happened all over the world.
Watching the closing of borders, multiple schools giving teachers significant paycuts and firings, the inability of new staff to replace departing staff (many of these are not just China centric) and the clamoring of schools with local students looking for international staff in country has been fascinating to watch. It's certainly not everyday we live through these times.
But it also gets back onto my main question - are the proposed changes just conjecture or the real thing?
> Seriously though, in terms of impact on schools and teachers I would think
> that it will vary greatly depending on how many Chinese students are
> enrolled in the school.
>
> If none, then I think this could be a 'light touch' requirement. If, say
> 25% including Chinese on foreign passports, then it will be more stringent.
> If mostly Chinese students then it could be quite full on.
I think you are spot on the money here. Expat schools have been hollowed out (in number of students) but this happened all over the world.
Watching the closing of borders, multiple schools giving teachers significant paycuts and firings, the inability of new staff to replace departing staff (many of these are not just China centric) and the clamoring of schools with local students looking for international staff in country has been fascinating to watch. It's certainly not everyday we live through these times.
But it also gets back onto my main question - are the proposed changes just conjecture or the real thing?
Re: Beginning Of The End for China Foreign Teachers?
We need to see these actions in the larger context, where Mr. Xi is flexing his muscle to maintain an iron grip over CCP and showing who the boss is. Will it be short-term? Maybe if they could find a scalable local vaccine and get a favourable trade deal from a new administration in the US. For a fact, China will continue to shore up its economic and military strengths to assert its position as the new superpower. All teachers could do is keep their heads down, get the job done, and move their monies out, which is easier said than done.
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shadowjack
- Posts: 2140
- Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:49 am
Re: Beginning Of The End for China Foreign Teachers?
I would say they are the real thing. China is in an age of chaos where these things can come in and not be pushed back against by foreign governments and companies. They have other, bigger, concerns. This is akin to Trump always firing an IG on a Friday evening, to avoid the news cycle, and then coming out with some amazingly outrageous tweet that then takes the air from the story.
My last several recruiting cycles I had chances to interview with Chinese schools and only pursued two. Now I am at the point where I would take all Chinese (but not Taiwanese) schools off the table.
Fangpiren - your bank account is mine. Just to let you know, we can talk, but your bank account is mine. It belongs to me.
That, in a nutshell, is China claiming a nation which was created to be the OPPOSITE of the PRC. It USED to be Chinese territory - but then again, China used to be Mongolian territory. So really. China is Mongolia and Mongolia has every right to come in and take it back. Logic - it works.
That said, as a sovereign nation, China is within its rights to do this if it so chooses, just as teachers are under no duress to go to China to teach.
We live in interesting times.
My last several recruiting cycles I had chances to interview with Chinese schools and only pursued two. Now I am at the point where I would take all Chinese (but not Taiwanese) schools off the table.
Fangpiren - your bank account is mine. Just to let you know, we can talk, but your bank account is mine. It belongs to me.
That, in a nutshell, is China claiming a nation which was created to be the OPPOSITE of the PRC. It USED to be Chinese territory - but then again, China used to be Mongolian territory. So really. China is Mongolia and Mongolia has every right to come in and take it back. Logic - it works.
That said, as a sovereign nation, China is within its rights to do this if it so chooses, just as teachers are under no duress to go to China to teach.
We live in interesting times.