Switzerland.

[mysharona]

Hmm, Geneva pays 308% better than Shanghai! That means I would be making roughly $400,000/year, I am definitely in the wrong city.

[Heliotrope]

secondplace wrote:
> though it is disingenuous though to directly compare cost of living, as
> most of the Asian packages include housing, flights, insurance etc. and the
> Swiss ones don't.
>
> Which means that the savings potential in Asia suddenly jumps higher.


Indeed.

Plus @PsyGuy compares income averages listed on Numbeo, and while a loaf of a bread or a taxi ride might cost the same for all expats, the salaries for all expats aren't the same (especially not in Geneva or in Switzerland as a whole with it's enormous banking sector).
The highest paying IS (or a decent tier 2) in Geneva does certainly not pay 701% better than the highest paying IS (or a decent tier 2) in Bangkok. Actually, it's not even double.

If you're a single teachers or if you have kids, I would advise ITs to go to Asia because the savings potential for ITs is higher there (when comparing schools of a similar calibre). Just look at the stated savings potential in the Search database.
Even the top-paying ISs in Switzerland state you can save 5,000-10,000 annually (with only two of those schools stating you save over 10-20K), while even at most tier 2's in Bangkok you'll be able to save 10-20K per year. And Bangkok isn't the best city in Asia for savings.
The number are self-reported, but that's true for both countries.
At all of my Asian schools, I've been able to save 10-20K and upwards of that easily, and that's with eating out half of the week, getting massages, going on holidays, having a maid, etc.

But perhaps someone who has worked in Switzerland can contribute, so we can have a clearer view of the saving potential there, so it's not just @PsyGuy and me spinning numbers?

[beanie]

My experience, particularly with Geneva, is that there is very very very little turnover. Many people live and shop in France, which lowers the housing costs. Amongst all sectors in Geneva competition is fierce because it's a comfortable lifestyle for many. A good pension and the safety net of unemployment payments if you lose your job. There's somewhat of an understanding that jobs become available only when someone retires or dies (of course there is the odd exception, but the term 'golden handcuffs' is ubiquitous in the region).

[Illiane_Blues]

Have not worked there myself but an ex of mine worked at one of the better Swiss international's schools. He failed to save more than few thousand in 2 years but he did travel 2 or 3 times year to other European countries because that is why he wanted to be in Europe. No one goes to Western Europe to save. You go for the lifestyle and the travel in the region. Switzerland is no exception unless you stay put for many years and the retirement kicks in. None of his coworkers saved substantially but it's a pleasant place to be. Since he left prices have gone up compared to other countries in the region.
Anyone with enough experience 'on the circuit' knows you go to the Middle East or Asia to save and have a comfortable lifestyle and travel. You go to Western Europe or Latin America for travel. You go to Africa for whatever reason you have for going there.
If you want Europe but want to save some coin you go to Eastern Europe.
@Heliotrope: I thought you weren't going to engage @PsyGuy in these prolonged discussions anymore? ;-)
PsyGuy knows he's wrong, he just wants you to go crazy proving it. He's a troll after all.

[secondplace]

In Switzerland.

Two of us, but only one working.

The Numbeo figures for prices of items are accurate - e.g. bread, chicken, hair cuts. The average salary comparisons get distorted.

You pay for rent, and nearly all places are not furnished, and compulsory health insurance.

All other costs are down to personal choice. Well, apart from travel I suppose, in terms of commuting to work.

But, in our situation you don't live in CH to save money. You live for the beauty, the nature, the safety, the travel in and out of country.

People on two salaries, without children, would get all that plus the savings.

[wrldtrvlr123]

My only insight is based on a friend who worked at the top school (opinions differ I suppose) in Switzerland. They were a single teacher with no children and shared that even on a top/near top for the country package, the savings opportunities (in their experience) were very modest (and they were not the type to live large or even do extensive traveling).

Their personal opinion was that the whole experience (i.e. country, school, weather, etc.) was on the grey, not particularly joyful and relatively dreary side and they moved on after a few years.

Like anything, I suppose it depends on your own expectations and personal experiences/perceptions, but it definitely changed the desirability of the country in our opinion. We didn't take it off of the table, but it came down quite a few notches. Which doesn't mean of course that some people might find it a very enjoyable (and maybe even rewarding) experience.

[beanie]

Dependents make it more difficult, but singles or couples without children should be able to live a comfortable life. With kids, tuition is usually included and most families live in France for the cheaper rent. Some of the better schools don't even include a maximum number of dependents for free tuition.

I (single, no dependents) was able to save between 2000-2500CHF per month from my salary (which was about a third of net salary) while renting a 2bdrm city apartment, eating in restaurants/takeaway about once a week and traveling within Switzerland every weekend (skiing in winter, hiking in summer). School holidays I mostly travelled within Europe. Pension contribution savings were about 1800CHF monthly.

So I don't really understand the whole Switzerland is too expensive view. I was happy, saved money, had access to the outdoor activities that I enjoy and was centrally located in Europe for easy travel. Worked for me.

[Illiane_Blues]

beanie wrote:
> included and most families live in France for the cheaper rent.


Ah yes I forgot to mention that bc it slipped my mind: like you my ex did say that some teachers would live and shop in France to save money. Even then they wouldn't save anything like one would at the top schools in Asia. He also said IS Geneva was one of the best international schools he has worked at although he did not care much for the expat scene in Geneva. Lack of substantial savings and being bored with Geneva made him leave in the end but he's not an outdoorsy type.

[Heliotrope]

Illiane_Blues wrote:
> beanie wrote:
> > included and most families live in France for the cheaper rent.
>
>
> Ah yes I forgot to mention that bc it slipped my mind: like you my ex did say that
> some teachers would live and shop in France to save money. Even then they wouldn't
> save anything like one would at the top schools in Asia. He also said IS Geneva was
> one of the best international schools he has worked at although he did not care much
> for the expat scene in Geneva. Lack of substantial savings and being bored with
> Geneva made him leave in the end but he's not an outdoorsy type.

I've heard the same (working in one country while living in a cheaper country) is also quite well possible in Basel, Luxembourg and Monaco.

[leighton1904]

Switzerland is very expensive. Taxes, compulsory health insurance (minimum 300 CHF a month), food, accommodation etc.

I worked in Switzerland, and the truth is I am left with the same disposable income here in Portugal despite a lower salary. Even when I worked in Albania, I was left with the same disposable income as in Switzerland.

It is better just to visit Switzerland in the summer and work somewhere more relaxed and a bit more interesting.

L

[PsyGuy]

@Heliotrope

Yes @Heliotrope the same Numbeo you cited. I relied on your sources data that you sponsored.
No, those are averages and they are more than double, your sources data states they are.
Oh so now your source Numbeo isnt showing what you ant it to show, so now SAs database is the one ITs should refer too, because SA self reported data is superior.
Thats TPF, your own data sources are flawed and then you just double down on being right because you say so.

Indeed....

@Illiane_Blues

You go tot the WE for the lifestyle. Traveling is just a nice bonus.
Maybe @Heliotrope needs more experience on the circuit the data source he cited seems to have some issues supporting his position.

[Heliotrope]

I explained why I used the SA data for salaries.
We disagree.
Whoever reads this may decide what numbers are relevant to them, although I'd rely more on first-hand experiences rather than your or my info.

[PsyGuy]

@Heliotrope

Your explanation is TPF. You cited it as a source and then backpedaled when it didnt provide the data you wanted.

We disagree, and you apparently disagree with your own data.

[Heliotrope]

You already said that.
We disagree.

[PsyGuy]

@Heliotrope

It was true the first time, your explanation doesnt make it less so.
Your explanation is TPF. You cited it as a source and then backpedaled when it didnt provide the data you wanted.
We disagree, and you apparently disagree with your own data.