Moving from China to Europe - advice???

[Andjelika]

We are a teaching couple considering moving from Shanghai to Europe with our baby, probably in two years. We simply wish to be closer to home (Eastern Europe) now that we have a baby, and find a place more suitable for her in terms of schooling and environment. I'm an A level Economics/Business teacher with 6 years of IT experience, Master's in both Economics and Education, and US teaching license, while my husband is PYP teacher and Curriculum developer, with Master's degree in Curriculum Development. We don't need working visas for Germany (not sure what our chances are there), but we are considering all European countries, including Eastern Europe where our saving potential could be higher. I've read many posts about reallocation to European countries, and I understood that we won't be able to save as much as here. However, we would avoid moving to a place where we wouldn't be able to save anything. Yes, Germany offers good pension scheme, which is also something to take into account, but would there be anything left after paying all of those taxes?... So many things on my mind at the moment, but for now let's summarize it into these two:

1. Not sure what our chances are as non-natives in international schools in Europe. Any similar experiences or non-native colleagues you had?
2. Can anyone share their own experience when moving with the family, give any suggestion?...

Your help is much appreciated!

[Thames Pirate]

1. Chances vary by school/region, but I have known many non-natives, so I'd reckon your chances are as good in Europe as anywhere. With your resumes I don't see why they wouldn't be good.

2. No advice on moving with kids per se, but I know families doing just fine (not sure on savings, but certainly living decently) with one working spouse and one kid. Obviously lifestyle choices, location/school, and one vs. two jobs are HUGE factors in savings. You can't compare having a house with a yard in Munich to living in a comfortable flat in Krakow, and salaries are pretty disparate. A bit of research goes a long way. In the era of online grocery stores, etc. there is no reason not to know what to expect to pay for a flat, transportation, etc. It always blows my mind how few people do this and then complain about not saving.

3. General advice: Have originals and notarised copies (apostilles whenever possible) of EVERYTHING before you come. In triplicate. Depending on the country, you might have a Kafka-esque experience in getting marriages recognised, etc. But this is true not just in Europe. Be prepared for huge deposits for rentals, for example. Initial expenditures may be high.

[secondplace]

Prepare for a big difference in costs and the knock on effect of this on aspects of lifestyle, and of course savings.

For Western Europe by lifestyle I mean things like taking taxis, getting massages, eating out all the time...well, these things become much more expensive depending on the country.

But, reliable public transport and multitude of outdoor activity opportunities rises. Again, somewhat dependent on country.

[PsyGuy]

You will be at a disadvantage compared to NESs but not needing visa support will be an advantage that its probably a wash assuming you have a high level of English proficiency.

If both of you are working than living and some modest savings are possible. I see that being very difficult with such a young child. If they are a baby now in 2 years they will be what 2-3 years old, you would have to get childcare on your own coin if both of you were to work in IE.
If its just one of you working with the other a stay at home parent youre likely going to starve at anything below a tier 1/Elite tier IS. Salaries arent amazingly great they are average for the economy and after taxes one salary will go entirely to living expenses with some change leftover. Add to that that start up costs can easily drain a couples modest savings and you would really have to go for the change in experience now. It would be a lot easier in a few years when your child is school age at least to being able to start EC at an IS or a local DS allowing both of you to work easily.

Getting everything apostiled is sound advice and i cant see how triplicate wouldnt hurt, better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. I always had duplicate's of basic documents, not everything, which meant my highest degree and one of my teaching credentials.

[Andjelika]

Many thanks for your responses! Having all the documents ready before we leave is a great advice.

We know it's very common here in Asia to get free education for a child even from 2-3y old one, and we were hoping to get an offer from the school that provides a similar benefit. Both of us plan to work, so we do need childcare/pre-kindergarten for her (someone mentioned that there's free childcare in Germany, but that's not what I found online). However, it looks like it's not a standard package in Europe, and I'm not that optimistic about getting into 1st tier schools there. It really depends on the package we can get. I hope to get more info about salaries and benefits from SA once I become a member (now it's too early I guess), but I've been looking at the websites of some international schools in Eastern Europe and it looked like they offer this kind of benefits. Their salaries are probably lower due to lower costs of living, and these places are probably just too competitive. Another option would be going to Emirates for a couple of years, saving some more money, and then moving to Europe if there is some good job opportunity (or at least a decent pension plan).

[PsyGuy]

@Andjelika

Well its there, but if your IS doesnt offer it you have to pay for it. After age 3-6 you can get half day EC, its difficult finding an EC center with all day EC. The cost is about EUR€200/mth but you are by no means guaranteed or entitled to a a particular EC center. Even then its still only half a day (assuming you cant find a full day EC program, they are in high demand). This means one of you would have to pick your child up and take them to another EC program for the afternoon. Youre also going to need to have someone available on call for emergencies or running late. Your looking at a quarter of monthly salary (one of your salaries) post tax in EC, if your IS doesnt offer it, or only offers a partial day program.

ISs in IE dont generally include outside . EC as a OSH benefit, but with both of you working and making a salary, its relatively affordable compared to the loss of a whole actual salary.

[Thames Pirate]

Early childhood care prices will vary by location, and schools mostly start at age 4 (give or take) for their EC programs. That said, keep in mind that in many places tuition is a taxable benefit, and taxes at 40% on 20K is a fair chunk of change. You can send your kid to a public school, of course.

You can live with one child on one salary just fine if you understand the lifestyle choices. You don't need Tier 1 pay if you are both working, either. But again, it's all about the research.

[PsyGuy]

The tuition and other taxable benefits is a significant issue. If your IS charges EUR€800/mth at 40% your paying almost twice as much in tax then if you just payed a couple hundred out of pocket on the economy for EC. Those high taxes are subsidizing that EC.

[Doctor]

I'm going from China to Brazil and the visa process is turning into a nightmare. It will probably be worse for China to Europe.

[Thames Pirate]

Visas are probably actually not the hardest thing in Europe (depending on your country of origin), and most good schools will sponsor you.

[PsyGuy]

No it isnt, not anymore, more and more ISs that once would sponsor a visa are now requiring EU citizenship or regional working papers. Even in the past before then, visa sponsorship was the exception rather than the norm.

[Thames Pirate]

Citizens of the USA, Australia, Canada, Israel, Japan, New Zealand, and Switzerland don't need a visa to work in the EU--they can just apply for a work permit and a residence permit upon arrival. That's most of the teachers on here (US, Can, Aus, NZ). However, upon arriving at the country where they will be working, they have to apply for their residence and work permit.

UK is of course the sticky widget right now.

Most countries require proof of a job, then the application for the permit.

[vandsmith]

speaking only from our experience, we live in northern europe, and you can find childcare for very young kids - it's about 500-600 USD per month. our school subsidizes staff kids a lot so that figure above will be cut by about 400 USD for early years/pre-school.
savings, as some will explain, is tied up differently but for us (we have a 4 year old now) we still save about 1000 USD per month, after sending about the same home each month. our rent is by and far the biggest expenditure but if you can swing a decent deposit then you can cut that by nearly half. after rent, it's our car lease. then food.

if you are coming with some savings from china already, the first year you probably will need to tap into that a little, but should be able to top it back up after the first year.

again, my advice is based solely my current country, in northern europe.

don't have any advice re: china - probably you will need a police clearance from there, and not a bad idea for birth certificate translated into english and notarized, and get on your original transcripts and all that jazz.

best of luck!

v.

[PsyGuy]

@ Thames Pirate

Utter bunk, if only it were so true than everyone would be working in the EU. Its just more of your Thames Pirate Fallacy (TPF) all you have to do is go to the fair and demand they give you a contract.

@vandsmith

We disagree, the only ones saving anything and paying bills are those with 2 incomes

[Thames Pirate]

Once again you can look it up. But since I made the claim, I will back it up because I understand how that works:

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/working-schengen-visa/

Basically it's simple: If you are from those countries you can enter the Schengen area for 90 days. If during that time you get a job, you simply apply for a work permit.