position accepted is reposted

PsyGuy
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Discussion

Post by PsyGuy »

There is ample information to find out by talking with a candidate hired for the same position, since the LW wants to confirm that the IS isnt engaged in shenanigans hiring multiple ITs for the same position, if they refuse, then they have something to hide, and theres nothing weird about asking for the contact information for an identical department member moving to a new department. Hiring for multiple identical positions shows this IS has a lot of turnover, this is something to be concerned about.

Positive reviews on ISR are mostly cheerleaders and leadership sponsored reviews.
shadowjack
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Re: position accepted is reposted

Post by shadowjack »

@sid

that's what @PG is talking about - getting the email of the other teacher hired for the post. LOL Not an email of an existing teacher at the school...
Heliotrope
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Re: Discussion

Post by Heliotrope »

PsyGuy wrote:
> There is ample information to find out by talking with a candidate hired
> for the same position, since the LW wants to confirm that the IS isnt
> engaged in shenanigans hiring multiple ITs for the same position, if they
> refuse, then they have something to hide, and theres nothing weird about
> asking for the contact information for an identical department member
> moving to a new department. Hiring for multiple identical positions shows
> this IS has a lot of turnover, this is something to be concerned about.
>
> Positive reviews on ISR are mostly cheerleaders and leadership sponsored
> reviews.


It IS the same position, but they have two of them. So what would you expect to find out?
That it's not weird is your opinion, just like it's my opinion that I would find it weird if I was the recruiter. Your guess as to what the recruiter will find weird or not, is nothing more than that: a guess, unless you know him/her personally.

Your statement that there is a high turnover is also a guess. I know plenty of teacher couples (quite often both English teachers for some reason) whose departures results in two identical vacancies. And there are multiple reasons for having two vacancies, and not all of them necessarily bad. The OP can tell us more about the actual turnover, since the school's website/Search page will list the vacancies.

In my opinion, in most cases cheerleader / leadership-written reviews are fairly easy to spot for most, either by the grades given, by the topics covered in the attached statement, or the writing style thereof. Nevertheless, one or two (positive or negative) reviews mean nothing, but 4 or 5 reviews all telling you somewhat the same story can be helpful, and could be a reason to be optimistic/pessimistic. Furthermore, I don't think most positive review are less-than-honest.

I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but I think there's a good chance you might be.

And please don't write your opinions down as facts. Just add "I think" or "In my humble opinion" in front of it, and leave some room for doubt, unless it concerns actual and verifiable facts. It will help the OP more than a false sense of certainty, and will take you forward on your journey towards self-improvement.
PsyGuy
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Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

You would find out if the pitches were the same if there were an incongruities, there are leadership that will say to an IT candidate ""Were talking to another candidate"" which actually means ""we hired another IT, but were still holding out for someone better"". Maybe the other IT has actually gotten a contract already because they arent the safety hire, and if any of that is true or something else, than leadership isnt going to let you talk to each other.

Not a guess, experience, our experiences differ. Opinions arent all guesses.

Nope again, not a guess, the LW already talked to the IS, and replied in a previous post:
"I contacted the IS saying I saw you were hiring for my position on TES and they never called me on it. The principal said it had nothing to do with my job but was part of their ongoing hiring, which could be true as there are many jobs posted."
This IS has a lot of vacancies equals a lot of turnover (or they are a founding IS).

One or two negative reviews can mean a great deal, it depends on the nature and depth of the review, it meaning nothing to you, doesnt mean it means nothing to everyone.

Most positive reviews are fiction.

Im stating your wrong, we disagree (mainly because youre wrong) or in more PC speak 'I am unable to reconcile your experiences to align along the continuum of my experiences'.

I dont really need your permission, everything I write is my opinion, because I wrote it, thats what writing is, if it wasnt my opinion it would include a citation.
Heliotrope
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Re: position accepted is reposted

Post by Heliotrope »

Wow, where to begin?
I'll try keep it short (I usually fail at that though):

- Yes, you ARE guessing. An educated guess is still a guess. It's an opinion if we're asking for your favourite color/music/etc. In this case it's not about preference, but rather likelihood.

- Your experiences aren't more valid than those of others, and my experience is quite different than yours, so it leads to think something different. I don't extrapolate my experiences to such a degree that I think I'm sure about everything. An amount of doubt and some modesty can be healthy, and will help the OP more.

- (For instance) 20 vacancies can be a lot for a small school, but perfectly normal for a big one. Also, a school can be expanding, needing a more than usual amount of teachers. It could be located in a country where teachers don't tend to stay long (I was at a perfectly fine school in Africa, but a lot of teachers stayed only one contract due to the hardships of being in a third world country. A school having many vacancies could still have a dodgy reason, but the truth is we don't know for sure. So we're guessing.

- There are both fake positive reviews, and fake negative reviews. I would say 50/50, but perhaps even more fake negative ones, since some IT just post to settle a score. The fake positive ones are usually a response to those (although most go unanswered). Both fake kinds are usually rather easy to spot, the positive ones are the easiest to catch. But if I saw a large amount of either (positive or negative), and they seems to be honest, and are all telling the same story, then I tend to think that story might very well be close to the truth.

- If you state something as a fact in your response, you can't hide behind something like "Everything I write is just my opinion". If you make it sound like you're 100% sure of something, people tend to think you know what you're talking about and perhaps act accordingly, so it would be wise take that into consideration. And at the same time you're stating I'm wrong. How can that be, when it's just 'my opinion'? It's one or the other.
And I never said you needed my permission. I just suggested being a bit more helpful and honest by adding that you're not a 100% sure. We're here to help the OP, not to win arguments and boost our ego's.
PsyGuy
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Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

1) No I am not guessing, educated guesses are still guessing and neither of them are experience.

2) Your experiences arent any more valid than mine and neither of ours are any more valid than anyone elses, but your experiences dont invalidate my experiences or anyone elses.

3) We dont have a number of vacancies we have the LW reporting that the IS quantified that the vacancies were a lot. ITs not staying long is turn over. It doesnt matter if its expected or routine, its still a lot of turnover. Im not guessing Im proposing a differential to determine if there is something dodgey going on.

4) I dont know of any "fake" negatives, posting to grind an axe or settle a score is a valid reason to post a negative review, something the IS did caused that ave or score to exist. The number of fake positive revies are almost all fiction.

5) Im not responsible for your interpretation, what I write, just as everyone else writes is their opinion, if its someone elses opinion than a citation is required. I only write from experience and trusted resources, Im sure about what I write, why waste my time otherwise.

6) Your opinion isnt a preference, your opinion is wrong in the sense that it is not an accurate reflection of reality.

7) I am being honest in my help. I generally refer from using absolute terms such as always and never, etc.

Youre starting to sound like a recruiter or leadership, everything is a guess, everything is an opinion, no ones sure of anything, everything is subjective, everything means nothing, nothing means anything.
We disagree.
Heliotrope
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Re: Reply

Post by Heliotrope »

My main issue is that you pose that what you expect is going on, or will happen, is the *only* possibility.
I'm merely pointing out that there's also a good chance everything is on the level, and that things like a high turnover could have different reasons that have nothing to do with the quality of the school. I already said it *might* be a sign of a dodgy school, but it might have an altogether different reason (school expanding, hardship in city) where the school is perfectly ok. High turnover might be a clue, but it doesn't *automatically* mean there's something wrong with the school.

Extrapolating your own experiences is fine, but it's only proof that the situation at hand might unfold the same way, it doesn't proof that it will not go differently.
Unless you know the recruiter, or (to a lesser extent) work at the school or know anyone that does or has, you're still just guessing what's going on, no matter the experience you have.

And you're telling me that a disgruntled teacher who has been let go for valid reasons wouldn't go on ISR and paint the school in a bad light by making up things? It's only human nature, unfortunately. I know about an ex-colleague of a teacher friend who was fired for inappropriate behaviour towards students (of a sexual nature), and a month later a scathing review appeared on ISR, with the exact same (and very specific) spelling mistake the former colleague alway used to make. Hard to imagine he's the only one.
Of course there are quite a few both positive and negative reviews that aren't honest. Everyone knows it, and acts accordingly.

What I write is just as much based in experience and trusted resources. That we have led different lives, have different resources, and have different demeanours (I'd say I'm an optimist and you're a pessimist)(please don't reply saying you're a realist, that's what all pessimists say) means we might arrive at different recommendations/opinions/etc.
I respect yours, and have always said you might be right. I'm just pointing out there's a chance you're not.

Saying something *is* a certain way, is an absolute. If you write 'probably is', you leave room for the possibility that you might be wrong, which is always smart when you can't be a 100% certain.

I'm not saying everything is a guess, or an opinion. I'm just saying at this point we can't be sure yet, we can only guess, and have a (strong) opinion about what is more likely. Nothing wrong with that.

Maybe someone else can weigh in, please?
Heliotrope
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Re: position accepted is reposted

Post by Heliotrope »

Let's boil it down to one point:

Can you agree that the school having a high turnover, *might* have a different reason other than it being a dodgy school?
Or is it 100% sure a dodgy school?

If it is indeed very high (which we don't know for sure, since all the OP said "many jobs", but of course he might not know if the number of jobs advertised is high for a school of that size – I've seen several good schools that had many job openings), based on the (lack of) information we have right now, I'd say there's about a 60-70% chance (hard to pick a number, but in the ballpark) it's a dodgy school. So I'm saying you might be right. Also, I'm saying there's a chance you're not.
PsyGuy
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Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@Heliotrope

I posed nothing, I advanced a series of options, the IT responded, and then postulated a differential. Combining high turn over and an ISs leadership doesnt ant to share the contact of the identical hired IT, that would be grave cause for concern.
My issue is that you pose every position that you favor is quantified as a "good chance" or other quantity thats superior in favor. My claim is that at the moment its maybe even, a little on the negative side.
I never claimed it as automatically anything, as I described a combination of factors are reducing significantly that this IS is on the level.

My experience isnt proof of anything, neither is yours, science cant prove anything. I never claimed it would unfold or the final outcome would be as I described. Its an opinion, thats not guessing.

I find your forensic spelling indicator insufficient, lacking in merit and unpersuasive.

Your claims are not self authenticating, because you claim everyone knows it, the number of fake positive reviews is very, very high, and fake negative reviews very, very low.

I dont have a temperament, only data matters, pessimism and optimism are simply your neurological incapacity to resolve behavior without resulting to gross categorizations.

Sure you say I might be right, but always qualify that with Im probably wrong and youre right. I dont resort to such ego stroking, your wrong, and Im comfortable with that conclusion.

"is" is not a quantity except to indicate a quantity that isnt zero, it is not an absolute. A raindrop 'is' water it is not all water.

I dont guess, I suggested a differential methodology of collecting additional data.

I consider my position sufficiently strong to withstand debate, I require neither consent or counsel of the forum contributors to advance my claims, but if you need help....
Heliotrope
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Re: Reply

Post by Heliotrope »

> Sure you say I might be right, but always qualify that with Im probably
> wrong and youre right. I dont resort to such ego stroking, your wrong, and
> Im comfortable with that conclusion.

It's not ego-stroking, I can agree with you, can't I? It's not uncommon for people to agree.
If the turnover is indeed high for a school that size (which we don't know yet, just 'many jobs'), and they're also unwilling to share contact details (which we also don't know yet), I would agree that there's a good chance the school is not on the level.
Although, not sharing contact details could be a privacy issue, but I fear most schools wouldn't see it that way.

> I dont resort to such ego stroking, your wrong, and Im comfortable with that conclusion. "

What am I wrong about?
Sorry, I don't know what exactly you're referring to here.
Doctor
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Re: position accepted is reposted

Post by Doctor »

I sent the signed contract but haven't received a signed contract back but I am in touch with the principal and she's suggested a few resort areas closeby if I go to Egypt early; she's provided info on the hotel new teachers will stay at.

I think it's more or less what psyguy said - it's just early yet. I'm certainly not going to contact any teachers their or ask for contact info but I would like a signed contract. I'll follow-up on this after Christmas break but I feel more or less confident that its all for real, mostly because the principal is in touch.
Heliotrope
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Re: position accepted is reposted

Post by Heliotrope »

Sounds like it's all on the up and up, must be a relief.
Enjoy your time there – lots to see and do in Egypt!
PsyGuy
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Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@Doctor

I wouldnt put a whole lot of credit into "in touch" with you, while leadership tends to do HR very poorly, it takes 5 minutes maybe 15 if the IS has to find the chop/seal to put on the contract, but otherwise its just printing the copy you sent, signing, seal, scan and email back to you, which is a lot less work than conversing with you and holding your hand.
MartElla
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Re: position accepted is reposted

Post by MartElla »

Doctor - how do you know it is "your" job that was reposted? Instead of it being two positions that were available?

Is your job role the only one in the school?
Thames Pirate
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Re: position accepted is reposted

Post by Thames Pirate »

I know a school with two positions that will be open in the same department. The first is posted because the teacher in question (A) has definitively said they are not returning. The second is not because the teacher in question (B) is waiting for a contract in hand before giving notice, and local law does not allow the school to post their position until then. They worded the existing opening broadly enough that they can get the applicants for both jobs knowing that if B stays they can rearrange within the department to accommodate whatever person they get, whether more like person A or B. They can also keep a person in mind for the other opening (second choice) should B give notice. When B gives notice, the job will appear to be "reposted" even though it isn't the same job.

So do your best to get information from any source you can, trust your gut, and have a backup plan in place.

Best of luck!
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